Immaculate Conception
- Thread starter MMurphy
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I don't mind listening to their perspectives, River. It's quite alright. The last thing I want is for this thread to run into a place of spite and attack. I don't think they have doe that yet. I may disagree with their personal interpretations, but I don't think that means they are being spiteful.
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PeaceLikeaRiver
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Well, it depends on who's teaching it, wouldn't you agree?
PeaceLikeaRiver
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I did. Like most other things in this thread it made me wonder what relevance it had. A lot of the math here is sort of like 2 + 2 = Whore of Babylon. Long and sometimes incomprehensible stretches of logic.
Thank you for your reply # 383
PeaceLikeaRiver
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I think if I was hearing stuff like this spoken from a pulpit or elsewhere, I'd critically examine what was being told to me:
1) Is the person teaching this a person from a reputable teaching background? Have they themselves been educated correctly?
2) Is this hatred? Bigotry? Has it been soundly and factually sourced out using scholarly and correct historical sources?
3) Is this fact or opinion? Can I back it up easily by finding other unbiased sources that will match it?
1) Is the person teaching this a person from a reputable teaching background? Have they themselves been educated correctly?
2) Is this hatred? Bigotry? Has it been soundly and factually sourced out using scholarly and correct historical sources?
3) Is this fact or opinion? Can I back it up easily by finding other unbiased sources that will match it?
I accept all 3 as valid, makes sense. basis:
First : an account of actual event, being true to the text.
Second: a pattern in history, of growth of how we do things, and in terms of human governance: Law as led by Moses, then by Judges, then by Kings, ….then by Church Authorities, then by Christian Liberty.
Third: sympathy, identification....
A teacher reprimanding another student, one can relate if one have ear to listen/examine oneself if there is something to learn such as St. Paul is reprimanding the congregation in Corinth, sure, those message is for the people in Corinth, surely there is something to learn.
Take it up with Jesus. Read Matthew 23
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. Vestments and robes anyone?
Hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
A man at my church was raised in the Catholic faith. He was severely injured physically and was unable to go to mass for over a month. The priest came to see him. He thought the priest came to see him to see how he was out of concern. The priest came to ask if he was going to make up for the tithing he had missed while being injured. Understandably, he left the church and his faith. Only years later did his fiance' bring him back to find a home in our protestant church. They were married and he is now a deacon. Before going crazy, Protestant churches have done this sort of thing also, keeping track of your offerings and harassing people to give what the church thinks they should.
People learned the Bible and these groups of enlightened believers obliterated false doctrines. Before condemning them, learn what caused them to do this.
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MMurphy
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That is a tragic story and I'm sorry to hear that happened to him. A spiritual counselor whether a priest or pastor should always tend to his flock with care and compassion. I would personally say that priest is guilty of simony and oght to be defrocked.
We should discuss.
PeaceLikeaRiver
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They call priests "father" for the same reason Jesus did.... because we are able to comprehend the difference between father (aka founding fathers, biological father, father time, step father et al) and God the Father. I wonder what you think Jesus called Joseph....
Keeping the verse in context let us look at the verse preceding this verse:
(Mat 23:8) But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master: and all you are brethren.
Rabbi means teacher and the Latin word for teacher is doctor so anyone using these terms as well are violating the literal interpretation of the text.
And this matters how?
What's understandable? One stupid priest does not represent the entire Catholic faith.
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Your opinion brother. I for one have to question it.
Fair??? Not really Larry. I am more round than fair.
Haha -- nicely done, sir.
Sir?.........You know my dad????
LOL!......Good one!
Ya know Larry, it seems to me that the conversations here have gotten real confrontational and angry the last few months and it is always over religion.
The Catholic persuasion is attacking the Protestans and visa versa but when that is pointed out both sides each says......WHAT, ME????
I wish that we could have some more constructive conversation on Biblical matters with out all the condescension and congealed anger.
Also, a lot more FUN. Does anyone here laugh any more except me????? Good grief, we need to have more fun while we can!
Did you hear about the man who said....."I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury"!!!
Did you hear about the man who bought his wife a new car? She called him and said, "honey, there is water in the carburetor? The husband said well where is the car? The wife said..........In the Lake".
Moose, I think we've discussed this concern in here before. I found an old response to this from a little while back:
This is one of the many responses against the Catholic Church, and I actually think it's one of the fair ones to ask as it seems so straightforward.
To forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God -- there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.
So here's the response to that...
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matthew 23:6–7). His point here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige. Matthew 23:9 is responding to this mis-titling of the word rather than the word itself, as well as recognizing the one, true Father in heaven. Otherwise there would be a series of verses that would have to be removed from the Bible...
1 John 2:13-14 says "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."
The author was speaking directly to Church elders as he addressed them as "Father."
But that's only one verse...here's another.
Acts 7:1-2 says "The high priest said, 'Are these things so?' And he said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,"
Here, the word "father" was used twice, but I think it holds more weight when he addressed Abraham as "Father Abraham" because of his position as an elder that everyone knew. (You can also see this title being used in Luke 16:24). In Luke 16:27, it says "And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—" -- He wasn't talking to his own father when he called Abraham "Father Abraham" (He being the rich man in 'the bosom' as responding about Lazarus). And then he says it again in verse 30.
In Acts 22:1, Paul says “Brethren and fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you.”
Most significantly in Matthew 23:32 (only a few verses later from the one you referenced), it says "He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher."
This is probably the first concern for vestments and phylacteries I've ever heard. I'm interested in hearing why you're concerned about this.
Are you referring to to the vessels of communion or are you speaking metaphorically?
Stories like this are always frustrating because there are many priests who forget the point of service. And while I really understand the feeling of anger this can cause, it doesn't follow that Catholicism is wrong -- it follows that the priest is wrong. Consider my parents who went to an Evangelical church for about 15 years -- it's a megachurch now. The senior pastor took advantage of the members and had about 4 affairs with the women there. My parents left that parish, but it didn't follow that they would give up being Evangelical Christians. They had more sense than to blame Christianity on the sins of this pastor who broke his responsibilities as a man of God.
I suspect you are trying to be fair, and I absolutely appreciate that. Don't take my defenses as me trying to change your mind -- I'm really not. And I suspect you won't. In fact, I guarantee that you disagree with me regardless. But I do need to at least lay down the defense that the Catholic Church isn't dodging commandments in order to do what they want. There is sincere reason behind everything and it is all meant to be completely obedient to God.
Peace, who is teaching, don't you agree the Holy Spirit is the only Teacher of the Bible?
Look at what I have posted, what is wrong with it?
1. There were seven churches in Asia.
2. There were and are these divisions in church history.
Those two are history and we can't go back and change history, ...church history or world history.
3. What is written in the letters is for individual believers in the Body of Christ that were in those particular churches, isn't that the reason for them being written, so then, since there aren't any different people in Christ, ALL are the same and ALL are one Gal 3:28, if they spoke to believers then why can't they speak to believers today?
For example, Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, does that mean it's only for Nicodemus and not for us, ...because the same Jesus said that to him is the same Jesus that wrote the letters..
A few years after I was saved and the excitement had dulled the Lord spoke to me with this verse,
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Rev 2:4
It was true, I was settling on my lees, and I repented,
He also spoke to me through this verse to comfort me, to encourage me and to strengthen me, because I stood on the Word and those in the churches here walked by experience,
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9
My Lord also encouraged me when I was ready to give up and quit, He spoke to my heart and asked me who would defend the untaught if I left, with this verse, because I too hate the doctrine and works of the Nicolaitans,
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Rev 2:15
(Incidentally Peace, I encourage you to study what is the doctrine and works of the Nicolaitans so that you will know for yourself, that way you won't be able to say the teaching came from men)
Here is a verse He spoke through to me when I was spending all of my time studying the cults and chasing after JW's and Mormons,
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. Rev 2:24
With this verse He reminded me of my calling and it was not to evangelize the cults.
He lovingly used these verses to speak to me during a time when I was backsliding,
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.... Rev 3:2, 3
This verse was also given to me for encouragement and to teach me about Him coming for His Bride (me),
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:10
There have been numerous times of discouragement in my walk, when I thought, Lord just let them go to Hell, ...tenderly and gently, mercifully and graciously He has used this verse to bring me back on the path, for His will to be done in my life,
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:15
Like I said, the Lord has spoken to me from every one of His letters to the first century Asian churches and that is the reason for what I'm writing, for you to study and learn what the Lord will say to you through them, it has nothing to do with hate, it's in love and encouragement, ...it's the love of Christ that constrains me.
In His Love,
Gene
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