i do feel he proclaimed victory see we fail to figure out the descended in chapter 4
in the tomb
- Thread starter forgiven61
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Dave.....of the several options available, I would leave the one on demons for the last to accept.
Yes, it’s true that Jesus’s resurrection declared victory over his spiritual, demonic enemies in verse 22, it’s doubtful to me that Peter had that victory in mind in verse 19.
It seems to me that Peter appears to understand the “spirits” of verse 19 to be human beings when he says they were disobedient “in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared” in verse 20 which would rule demons out.
But aren't the demons the angels who rebelled against GOD and worked with satan to corrupt mankind? Where does the bible ever say that humans spirits are in prison when they died?
far as i know it dont say that.. we are dealing with scripture that is not real clear on. its either heaven or hell personally i find no in-between... we either die IN Christ Jesus or we die with out him--lost only 2 types people saved or lost. you ask some very good questions that should challenge us to find the answers
F61, it is the widely used Apostles’ Creed reads, which read.....“was crucified, dead, and buried, he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead.”
But the phrase “he descended into hell” does not occur in the Bible.
What does appear in Ephesians 4:8-9 is...........
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Here Paul writes, “In saying, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?”
Does this mean that Christ “descended” to hell? Maybe but it is not explicitly stated.
It is at first unclear what is meant by “the lower parts of the earth,” other translations appear to say that "Descended" refers to Christ coming to earth in the incarnation.
Is Paul saying that the Christ who went up to heaven (in his ascension) is the same one who earlier came down from heaven (v. 10). That “descent” from heaven occurred, of course, when Christ came to be born as a man. So then, does that verse speaks of the incarnation, not of a descent into hell.
Only a question and not an argument.
I for one do not believe those spirits in 1 Peter 3 are demons.
I say that because “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days” speaks to those who heard Noah preach to them. Demons would at that time already be fallen and it would not matter if they were preached to or not, their fate was already sealed.
My view is that the spirits are the souls of those who perished in Noah’s flood. These souls are kept in Hades, the TORMENTS side and hear the gospel proclaimed by Christ after His death but before His resurrection.
Another really good question. All I can do is tell you what I believe.
In John 3:13, Jesus says, “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man,”.
So then, does this scripture say that people didn’t go to Heaven before Jesus’ death and resurrection? IMHO.....YES! it does.
So then, where were the spirits of those who died in faith to God. Adam, Abraham, Noah, Daniel, Ezekiel and all the others?
They went to "Paradise" which is in Sheol/Hades.
Luke 23:43..........
"And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”
So, in Paradise or as Peter calls it in 1st Peter 3:20....."Prison". It may help to understand that the word paradise, occurs only three times in the New Testament -
1. Luke 23:43,
2. 2 Corinthians 12:4 and
3. Revelation 2:7.
All 3 of these references suggest that paradise is synonymous with heaven.
So then, when Jesus shed His blood, of which ALL the Old Test. sacrifices pointed to, then when He rose from the dead those spirits of believers in Paradise could then "Legally" go with Him to heaven as their sins had been paid for instead of looking to by faith.
I agree. TODAY it is heaven or hell at death, but it does not appear to be the case before the Resurrection.
It is my understanding that Old Testament saints were in a blessed state,
in Paradise awaiting Christ’s blood to be shed in order to remove the barrier and allow direct access to God’s presence that we now have today.
hey honestly i dont know and the ones i trust online in searching reading they cant pin point it. i dont think/believe he went to hell the bottomless pit. i have heard some say he took the keys to death and the grave .. unless the word straight up and says ..i dont feel i can say thus saith the Lord .. if not careful we can insert our opinion and make it a doctrine. i try to do my best not to insert me in a message . as the Calvinist say solo scripture. i am willing to read your comments but what i really like is comments based by scripture .
this post i started is not to be a arguing post. there is a lot of phrases used today that are not Bible . i am not in this to be right and others wrong
mcgee writes some of the same stuff you have ..amazing he comments on ascended as delivering the o.t saints . but i find nothing on descended . saturday i will try to explore more . tonight i just got back we had a good friday service good church service.. i am also tired from last night not getting in bed till 12:30 took wifes sis to E.R she keeps kidney stones and uti . im not made for late nights . but i will explore your question . i would like to know more my self
from what i have read that is pretty close
I agree. I am not here to argue anything but to learn and pass on what I have learned.
F61. There are many things we believe that are not specifically said in Scripture. We must use the whole Bible to see where those unknowns are "Implied".
An example would be the Trinity and the Rapture. Neither are mentioned specifically but both are implied.
The same thing applies to "Where was Jesus after His death"?
What we know is in Luke 23:42 where Jesus said.....“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (verse 43).
So, after His death, Jesus went to the place of blessing where God is—heaven. And that’s where the believing thief went, too.
So then, The only thing we know for sure is that, according to Jesus’ own words on the cross, He went to paradise. We can also say with confidence that, His work of redemption finished, Jesus did not have to suffer in hell.
I think you make a valid point. Consider the imagery of Ephesians 4:9-10
"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"
We have two extremes being contrasted with one another. Christ ascended FAR above ALL the heavens, and he descended to the LOWEST parts of the Earth. This shows complete totality. It is all encompassing. Thus the underworld would have to be included for image to work. Why is it important?
Paul provides the reason at the end of the verse, so that Christ "might fill ALL things." The next question is why does that phrase mean. Paul has already provide that answer.
"[God] raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all." (Eph. 1:20-23)
Paul argument establishes Christ's complete and total supremacy over everything and everyone (i.e. above the heavens and below the Earth and everything in-between) and that would necessarily have to include the underworld.
I dont know who ever thought that up..if someone tells me something as they say truth. i need scripture
I would say that today, many in the heretical Word of Faith movement teach that the crucifixion was insufficient to atone for our sins and that Jesus also had to suffer three days of torment in hell.
Agreed. As He made all things He would have dominion over all things.
I am just not sure this answer speaks to the "descent" of Ephesians 4.
First, Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in Paradise on the same day of their crucifixion in Luke 23:39– 43. I think we all believe that Paradise was the opposite of the Torments side as seen in Luke 16 where the rich man went.
Second, nothing in Ephesians 4:8–10 says Jesus descended into hell, "only that He who ascended first descended".
Many will argue that Paul means only that Christ descended into the grave. Then He ascended to heaven later.
Then many will also say that 1 Peter 3:18–20 likely refers to the Son of God preaching by the Holy Spirit through Noah to the people of Noah’s day. I would be one of those as it seems to me that is literally what the Scriptures say.
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i dont have time for junk doctrine one thing we can bank on is john 11:25-26 psalms 103 Bless the Lord o my soul and forget not His benefits. had it not been for the cross our sins could not be forgiven had it not been for the resurrection we could not have eternal life
I have always felt that he descended, as Origen points out, to express the fullness of his authority, but how would he best express that fullness? Would he gloat? I certainly doubt it. Would he appear in compassion? That more aligns with Christ's character as demonstrated in the gospels. So what would it means to appear in compassion? Only one answer comes to mind: reach out a hand with opportunity for forgiveness to any who choose to accept.
I agree 100% but are you suggesting that if He did indeed descend to hell, then those in hell would have the opportunity to be forgiven by accepting Him?
Typically those who believe that Christ descended into the underworld believe he did so in order to herald his total victory over death and the powers of evil (i.e. Christ's enemies). In other words, Christ walks into the enemy camp and announces "it's over, you lost."
Those who believe it provided a second chance are delusional. There is simply no creditable evidence for that option.
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Amen!
exactly that would fall under purgatory teaching which is false