Is Christmas Truly A Christian Celebration?

[calvin]

the depends on your own belief's on what pleases God

@calvin

The Prophet Mohamad (peace be upon him) will represent mankind on the day of judgement.

and God will represent Himself.

Phil 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
That means every knee and every tongue....every without exception.

 

[MichaelH]

We don't hold a Oneness position. In fact, we left this definition vague intentionally so that too much weight was not added to a doctrine that often serves to confuse rather than unite. It was intended that neither Oneness nor Trinitarian paradigms would be alienated unnecessarily since we are a multi-denominational site.

I am under the impression the guy is not here to learn. I have to vote with Calvin on this. To much Muslim stuff thrown in when talking about God. Jesus should be the Key focus on a Christian site.

No matter how you say it's vague. It's clearly a Modelist or oneness statement.

1 that becomes 3 is oneness, or reveals himself as 3, or 1 that manifest himself as 3.

Scripture says these 3 bare record, and these 3 are 1.

1=3
3=1

Don't matter to me though. I thought this was a Oneness site, or modelist site. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

I'll be honest, as a moderator, I'm not entirely sure what to do with you or this topic. According to the rules, you shouldn't be allowed here, but I'm more concerned with the spirit within which a rule is designed and the purpose for which a rule was created. So, I don't always apply the rules in the strictest sense because I find very little use for legalism. Rules over love is never a good policy.

There are a few things I know. If you are here to convert us, you shouldn't be here. If you are here to learn, then I welcome your attempts to understand how we see God. I find no more worthy purpose to fellowship with us than to see God through the eyes of others.

The other thing I know is how Christianity is treated in many of the Islamic forums. What you are doing here would not be tolerated in even the most liberal of Islamic forums, even those that welcome and encourage Christians to join. We would be permitted to join and clarify our beliefs, but never to directly call Islamic beliefs out. I'm of the mind that the same rules should apply here, as we have applied similar rules to Atheists who have joined us.

I guess what I'm saying in short is, if you are hear to learn and to understand, then you are welcome. If you are here to proselytize, mock, or Blaspheme, then you must understand that it is our job to protect the flock.




We don't hold a Oneness position. In fact, we left this definition vague intentionally so that too much weight was not added to a doctrine that often serves to confuse rather than unite. It was intended that neither Oneness nor Trinitarian paradigms would be alienated unnecessarily since we are a multi-denominational site.

I am very disappointed to hear that Islamic forums do not allow questions.


I frequent Ummah Forums and I never found such things there. But I've only been on there for a year and a half.

I am not here to convert anyone, I have learned A LOT today and yesterday and I have enjoyed some replies.

If I actual mention Islam and things taught in it, it is not to convert but to compare so I can understand the differences as well as the similarities in our respective belief's to help take away from misconceptions and misunderstandings that there surely is about our respective religions.

Thank you for your patience, and please do not take my intentions badly by assuming the worst.

It is better to assume the best and be wrong then assume the worst and be wrong. Thank you for your time

 

[aha]

I believe he liked dates, and honey.

Precisely, those false prophets are inwardly they are ferocious wolves….

You can judge a false teachings by what it promotes: physical, carnal worldly pleasures reward on doing good things….

precisely one is trapped in their reasonings, logic, keeps on seeing explaning things in physical carnal flesh terms....

 

[Panda]

I am under the impression the guy is not here to learn. I have to vote with Calvin on this. To much Muslim stuff thrown in when talking about God. Jesus should be the Key focus on a Christian site.

No matter how you say it's vague. It's clearly a Modelist or oneness statement.

1 that becomes 3 is oneness, or reveals himself as 3, or 1 that manifest himself as 3.

Scripture says these 3 bare record, and these 3 are 1.

1=3
3=1

Don't matter to me though. I thought this was a Oneness site, or modelist site. Thanks for clearing that up.

The Southern Baptist Convention defines the trinity as "The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being."

The Church of the Nazarene defines the trinity as "We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign Creator and Sustainer of the universe; that He only is God, [creative and administrative,] holy in nature, attributes, and purpose[;]. The God who is holy love and light [that He, as God,] is Triune in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

I tried looking up others, but found them either confusing or difficult to find. At least I found one Calvinist and one Armenian definition.

The UCPI defined God as "There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh."

This site declares "There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

It's funny. Aside from the word Trinity or triune, the definitions don't differ all that much in essence, despite the incredibly horrible bickering that occurs between the various groups. While I do accept it, I've never quite understood the need to doctrinalize the Trinity concept, I've also noticed that without it, some very bad interpretations of Scripture have prospered. I find it odd that the United Pentecostals define God in exactly the way most Christians understand the Trinity.

Even the Oneness Pentecostals define God in pretty much the same way we would define the Trinity, despite the fact that they attack the Trinity as being heretical. "We believe in a strict Monotheism – that God is numerically one. We believe that the one God of the Old Testament, whose name is Yahweh, became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus, the Son of God, is both fully God and fully man, being the visible image of the one invisible God. Jesus' deity is none other than that of the Father. As it pertains to His humanity, Jesus was born of a virgin in time. We believe that the Holy Spirit is none other than the Spirit of God Himself, primarily as He relates to mankind in our adoption as children of God and in our sanctification."

Most religions that deny the Trinity, use it in an effort to deny the Deity of Jesus and/or the Deity of the Holy Spirit. Oneness attempts to embrace the Unity, but as far as I can tell are simply confused by the Trinity doctrine itself.

I've been told that Jehovah Witnesses also deny the Trinity, yet their doctrine reads (once again) exactly like any other "There is only one true God. God is holy, eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. God alone is to be worshipped. His name is YHWH, which can be pronounced Yahweh or Jehovah. God exists in three distinct, co-equal persons: the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit all posses the divine attributes of God. The Father is God. Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God." I don't generally give a lot of weight to the JW, but it makes me wonder why so many fight for or against a doctrine that everyone seems to agree upon, even when they say they don't. I feel like I'm missing something. The only real, solid difference I can find in these definitions is the word "Trinity" itself.

Of course, in the interest of maintaining the spirit of this discussion, the Islamic faith does not accept the Trinity, nor the Divinity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. What I always found interesting, was when the organized belief first began to grow, they generally accepted Christianity as worshiping the same God because we do believe in one God. They understood the Trinity, and while they didn't accept it, they recognized it as an attempt to understand the same Creator that they worship as Allah. It wasn't until some power-hungry leaders decided it would be a good idea to start a war against Muslims in the name of a "Holy Crusade" to visit the ancient lands in the Bible with a few thousand armed soldiers that a division was carved in stone. One a small level, some of those divides have been crossed, but in general from what I can tell, there is still a LOT of mistrust and misunderstanding between the two religions dating back long, long before Protestantism existed.

Either way, I just wanted to clear things up for you. We are supposed to be an unbiased site. In reality, that's nearly impossible, but we do our best.

 

[Panda]

I am very disappointed to hear that Islamic forums do not allow questions.

I frequent Ummah Forums and I never found such things there. But I've only been on there for a year and a half.

I am not here to convert anyone, I have learned A LOT today and yesterday and I have enjoyed some replies.

They allow questions, but I could no go onto them and make the same type of accusations you have made without being censored pretty quickly. I wouldn't anyway, but my point is, that if you are here to learn, I will not kick you out.

If I actual mention Islam and things taught in it, it is not to convert but to compare so I can understand the differences as well as the similarities in our respective belief's to help take away from misconceptions and misunderstandings that there surely is about our respective religions.

Thank you for your patience, and please do not take my intentions badly by assuming the worst.

It is better to assume the best and be wrong then assume the worst and be wrong. Thank you for your time

I don't particularly care that you mention Islam or attempt to clarify your/our beliefs in any particular way. Since I've already stated that I won't strictly apply the rules to lock you out, I can only go with my gut feeling. Right now, I'm basically on the fence with you. I haven't decided one way or another, but I believe time will dictate your purpose.

 

[Panda]

I am under the impression the guy is not here to learn. I have to vote with Calvin on this. To much Muslim stuff thrown in when talking about God. Jesus should be the Key focus on a Christian site.

I'm reserving this, but I have taken note. It happens that I have some experience working with Muslims. When they have been around a lot of Christians, they have a different way of talking and relating to us. Just as we have a different way of talking to them when we have only heard about Islam from other Christians. So far, what I'm seeing can be either someone who has only been told about Christianity from non-Christians, or someone who is confused by our beliefs, and doesn't understand enough not to offend. At the end of the day, I will always choose to protect, but right now that still, small voice that I trust so much is telling me to stay my sword, so I must act with faith.

 

[RiverJordan]

More so I'd think it would be a matter of not putting effort into separating yourself from ancient pagan rituals.

But I'm not participating in an ancient pagan ritual. Sure, some things like having a Christmas tree have roots in something non-Christian, but that doesn't automatically mean by having a tree, I'm suddenly pagan.

Cultures and societies have been mixing and borrowing traditions and such from each other since the dawn of civilization. I mean, using your logic, Christians shouldn't be using Arabic numbers or doing Algebra, lest we become Muslim!

Traditions and rituals are what you make of them. When I bring a fir tree into my place, decorate it, and put presents under it, I'm celebrating the birth of Christ. That's what's important...what I make of it. If someone else does the same thing for different reasons, that's fine but it has no effect on what it means to me.

 

[MichaelH]

Either way, I just wanted to clear things up for you. We are supposed to be an unbiased site. In reality, that's nearly impossible, but we do our best.

Ya, it is hard to be all for everyone. You can claim you don't like the Word of Faith Message, but then have to tell someone the Word is true and if Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you then you can believe that. I can see why there are some many denominations to cater to all the things people want to believe different. I wish it was not that way. Everyone has declared some different wording for what they consider Trinity and it gets some purest upset. I saw a group attacking the Southern Baptist wording on it and they were Baptist.

Blessings, sounds like a good explanation.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Incidentally, while the doctrine of the trinity is correct and important, it is a Christian doctrine that is implicit in the biblical record. History tells us this has always been a point of contention even among Christians as far back as the 2nd century. Therefore, I do not get offended when our Muslim friend(s) also questions the logic behind it. We just need to be patient, long suffering and sympathetic. I am confident that God will lead him to the truth and he will come to Jesus for salvation, if not now then at another time. Until then, Gods spirit will continue to strive with him.

God bless,
MoG

 

[Mohamad_1996]

Incidentally, while the doctrine of the trinity is correct and important, it is a Christian doctrine that is implicit in the biblical record. History tells us this has always been a point of contention even among Christians as far back as the 2nd century. Therefore, I do not get offended when our Muslim friend(s) also questions the logic behind it. We just need to be patient, long suffering and sympathetic. I am confident that God will lead him to the truth and he will come to Jesus for salvation, if not now then at another time. Until then, Gods spirit will continue to strive with him.

God bless,
MoG

Mhm..

@Banarenth

Yes, and the Christians and Muslims lived together happily with little conflict, as did the Jews.

Sadly, the western Christians under the Roman ruling turned against the Islamic countries and waged war against Muslim and Christian soldiers alike in the name of God and Jesus Peace be upon him.

Kinda like how some people are blowing themselves up or attacking innocent populations of western lands now in the name of Allah.
other
Even though they are going against the book of God, the teachings of the Prophets etc.

Except these days we got the media painting a black picture of the whole religion.

I have had christian friends in the past, sadly we had not spoken of religion much.

Though from what I have noticed, they do know a few verses of the Qur'an but those are Arab Christians mostly.

I guess when you grow up surrounded by Muslims It's hard to believe all the stuff on the news. Likewise when you grow up with Christians It's hard to believe lies said about them.

Though I have lived in the middle east, they do not have anything against Christianity in general there.

Usually lectures at the local mosque make prayers against the armies invading Muslim lands and killing the population mercilessly Or pray against being influenced by the general "impurity" of the western populace.


Do you think America, and Canada, and Britain etc are representing Christianity as a country anymore?


With the legalization of Gay marriage, Incest, Prostitution (just legalized in Canada... wow) and many other things God almighty has clearly forbidden.

I mean God forbid all these with in reason, He is infinite in wisdom and knows all, there are many reasons we cannot even fathom for the Prohibition of such things.

Yet without a care or a second thought they undo the law of God because of the efforts of three prostitutes? My God..

What effects will this have on the Society? Will people become shameless and immodest when it comes to sexual intercourse?

Or do you think it will not have a difference?

Looking forward to your opinion.

 

[Glomung]

@Mohamad

Sadly, like many you are somewhat uninformed about both your own religion and history.
Nobody has ever "lived happily" under Moslem occupation, unless you consider the dhimmi to be voluntary.
Or the fact that open expresssion of Christianity is banned in most Moslem countries.
Have you forgotten that the penalty for conversion from Islam is death?

As to history, Islam was spread by the sword for centuries. Persia was the first conquered and all
who would not convert were put to the sword. The Crusades were the response to Muslim armies
attacking southern Europe.

I have read the Quran. It explicitly states that all non-moslems are to be subjugated or killed.
How is that happy?

Yes the west has become corrupt. Due to a lack of Christian values.
We know what the problem is here, why is the east so corrupt also?

 

[Panda]

Mhm..

@Banarenth

Yes, and the Christians and Muslims lived together happily with little conflict, as did the Jews.

Sadly, the western Christians under the Roman ruling turned against the Islamic countries and waged war against Muslim and Christian soldiers alike in the name of God and Jesus Peace be upon him.

Kinda like how some people are blowing themselves up or attacking innocent populations of western lands now in the name of Allah.
other
Even though they are going against the book of God, the teachings of the Prophets etc.

Except these days we got the media painting a black picture of the whole religion.

I have had christian friends in the past, sadly we had not spoken of religion much.

Though from what I have noticed, they do know a few verses of the Qur'an but those are Arab Christians mostly.

I guess when you grow up surrounded by Muslims It's hard to believe all the stuff on the news. Likewise when you grow up with Christians It's hard to believe lies said about them.

Though I have lived in the middle east, they do not have anything against Christianity in general there.

Usually lectures at the local mosque make prayers against the armies invading Muslim lands and killing the population mercilessly Or pray against being influenced by the general "impurity" of the western populace.


Do you think America, and Canada, and Britain etc are representing Christianity as a country anymore?


With the legalization of Gay marriage, Incest, Prostitution (just legalized in Canada... wow) and many other things God almighty has clearly forbidden.

I mean God forbid all these with in reason, He is infinite in wisdom and knows all, there are many reasons we cannot even fathom for the Prohibition of such things.

Yet without a care or a second thought they undo the law of God because of the efforts of three prostitutes? My God..

What effects will this have on the Society? Will people become shameless and immodest when it comes to sexual intercourse?

Or do you think it will not have a difference?

Looking forward to your opinion.

Corrupt people will always seek to use whatever power they have to do whatever they want. Corrupt people used the power wielded by the Christian kings to justify a war. Corrupt people use the media in America to blame what we fear and do not understand, and corrupt people use the media to convince Muslims that America is to blame for the corruption around them. Anyone can take a pure and good thing and twist it. Sin, in many cases, is the twisting of a Holy thing for a wicked or unnatural purpose. Sex was created by God for a pure and just purpose, but becomes corrupted and twisted into something that is profane, outside the bond of marriage. It is at that point that it becomes sin.

No, I do not think that America, Canada, or Britain are good representations of Christian countries, any more than they are representations of Muslim countries at least. There are good Christians in all lands, but I'm not aware of any countries that continue to govern according to Christian practices. I'm not entirely sure that any really existed to begin with, but with revisionist historians running around, it's always a bit foggy.

There is a lot of debate on the effect of secularization on society will have. Many look at it with an image of doom, others see it with great hope. I tend to take an "us and them" approach, but that is the most positive view I can form given my general distrust of those who desire and attain power.

 

[calvin]

Yes, and the weak minded empty hearted will always take on board the teachings of the 'corrupt people' becoming themselves corrupt people. I don't believe anybody is born a terrorist, a Christian peace maker or a notable humanitarian etc. We all grow into our roles, but we are all just as culpable or commendable as though we were born to it.
Rather than say any country is Christian, I tend to use the term Christianized of those predominantly western cultures; Australia, UK, USA, most of Europe, NZ and so on.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

@Mohamad

Sadly, like many you are somewhat uninformed about both your own religion and history.
Nobody has ever "lived happily" under Moslem occupation, unless you consider the dhimmi to be voluntary.
Or the fact that open expresssion of Christianity is banned in most Moslem countries.
Have you forgotten that the penalty for conversion from Islam is death?

As to history, Islam was spread by the sword for centuries. Persia was the first conquered and all
who would not convert were put to the sword. The Crusades were the response to Muslim armies
attacking southern Europe.

I have read the Quran. It explicitly states that all non-moslems are to be subjugated or killed.
How is that happy?

Yes the west has become corrupt. Due to a lack of Christian values.
We know what the problem is here, why is the east so corrupt also?

Did you learn about Islam from LiarsRus?

and where did you get your copy of the Qur'an from? How2Hate.com ?

I'm not even going to put any effort in replying to your ridiculous accusations.. It's just not worth it.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

Corrupt people will always seek to use whatever power they have to do whatever they want. Corrupt people used the power wielded by the Christian kings to justify a war. Corrupt people use the media in America to blame what we fear and do not understand, and corrupt people use the media to convince Muslims that America is to blame for the corruption around them. Anyone can take a pure and good thing and twist it. Sin, in many cases, is the twisting of a Holy thing for a wicked or unnatural purpose. Sex was created by God for a pure and just purpose, but becomes corrupted and twisted into something that is profane, outside the bond of marriage. It is at that point that it becomes sin.

No, I do not think that America, Canada, or Britain are good representations of Christian countries, any more than they are representations of Muslim countries at least. There are good Christians in all lands, but I'm not aware of any countries that continue to govern according to Christian practices. I'm not entirely sure that any really existed to begin with, but with revisionist historians running around, it's always a bit foggy.

There is a lot of debate on the effect of secularization on society will have. Many look at it with an image of doom, others see it with great hope. I tend to take an "us and them" approach, but that is the most positive view I can form given my general distrust of those who desire and attain power.

I can see that we agree on many things. I'd greatly enjoy a conversation over a cup of tea with you.

Sadly we're not likely in the same country

The thing that saddest my the most though, is that those who disagree with said laws are the majority.

Yet they say and do nothing due to a mental conditioning which I believe comes from Schools and TV etc.

That they can make a difference, what they and we forget is that countries are run by humans... and we are humans.

 

[Glomung]

@Muhamad, you do not reply because you cannot without being exposed as a liar.

My copy of the Quran is the annotated study copy in English and Arabic from the Saudi Embassy.
It has nothing to do with hate, it has EVERYTHING to do with speaking the truth to a pagan.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

@Muhamad, you do not reply because you cannot without being exposed as a liar.

My copy of the Quran is the annotated study copy in English and Arabic from the Saudi Embassy.
It has nothing to do with hate, it has EVERYTHING to do with speaking the truth to a pagan.

You are the representation of hate, do not speak to me please. and to reply to just ONE of your claims

"Allah says in the Qur'an that there is no Compulsion in religion"

It is forbidden to force anyone to become Muslim, likewise it is forbidden to kill anyone except If they commit a capital offense which are "Publicly leaving Islam and calling others to leave it as well (pretty much calling people to hell)" Rape, Murder, cheating on your wife publicly, etc"

It is forbidden to kill someone based on their religious beliefs, likewise the only reason they attacked persia was the oppression of the believers, the king forbid christianity and Islam and anybody worshiping anyone but him.

To free the Persians from said tyrant who openly declared war against the religion of Islam in a reply to a letter sent by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) war was waged and Persia was conquered.

While in the name of the Christian religion BILLIONS have been killed, forced into Christianity by the sword.

Examples? Philippines, America, Austrilia, Africa, etc etc But Is Christianity a barbaric brutal religion killing for the death of all non-christians? No.

People like you should be banned for your lack of respect to others.

 

[aha]

While in the name of the Christian religion BILLIONS have been killed, forced into Christianity by the sword.

I wish more of you take more concrete action to stop your brothers of doing so in other countries…. It is currently happening right now: Christians are persecuted in Moslem countries: although it based on newspaper is the basis my claim…

But for Christians now using the sword to spread the faith, haven’t read any news lately …..

I happen to have a very dear friend who happen to be a Moslem, funny guy and yet, very serious about his faith….

When asked about the terrorism acts such as contra-education of young girl in some countries: he is honest enough to condemn their action, although stopped to judge the man: i.e.: it is between them and God….

That I think is a honest reaction to an accusation: an honest self examine: instead of being defensive: “you too! use the sword” -> although if ever it was true: that was centuries ago as I know..

 

[calvin]

You are the representation of hate, do not speak to me please. and to reply to just ONE of your claims

"Allah says in the Qur'an that there is no Compulsion in religion"

It is forbidden to force anyone to become Muslim, likewise it is forbidden to kill anyone except If they commit a capital offense which are "Publicly leaving Islam and calling others to leave it as well (pretty much calling people to hell)" Rape, Murder, cheating on your wife publicly, etc"

It is forbidden to kill someone based on their religious beliefs, likewise the only reason they attacked persia was the oppression of the believers, the king forbid christianity and Islam and anybody worshiping anyone but him.

To free the Persians from said tyrant who openly declared war against the religion of Islam in a reply to a letter sent by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) war was waged and Persia was conquered.

While in the name of the Christian religion BILLIONS have been killed, forced into Christianity by the sword.

Examples? Philippines, America, Austrilia, Africa, etc etc But Is Christianity a barbaric brutal religion killing for the death of all non-christians? No.

People like you should be banned for your lack of respect to others.

Who then is the son of the father of lies?
You say that "
BILLIONS have been killed, forced into Christianity by the sword.
Examples? Philippines, America, Austrilia, Africa, etc etc" Nobody in austrilia Australia has ever been forced into Christianity by the sword or any other means of coercion. The Satan's beguiling speech will not find fertile ground here. How many other lies, how many other instances of bearing false witness against your neighbor have you planted on this forum mohamad1996??? I speak in defense of Australia because I happen to live here. You attack Glomung as a dis-respecter of persons, yet you yourself have paid the gravest disrespect to all Australians with your false witness against us. You have attempted to sully the good name of my ancestors and those of every Australian that was born here. By your own words..... people like you should be banned for your lack of respect (shown) to others.
I looked up the matter of quran condoned murder of so called infidels and I found 2 different islamic sites that gave some very contradictory information. On the one hand it was claimed that Mohammad was illiterate and so passed the instructions from Gabriel down by word of mouth, and so it was for generations till someone was able to write the oral traditions down. On the other hand, it was after they had fled to medina or was it mecca? well anyway they (mohammad and Co.) fled persecution and then finding persecution still, Mohammad laid down an additional edict that their enemies should be put to death, unless they stopped being enemies. My wording BTW. My point of concern here is that according to the second version, the quran was added to as a simple expedient because of persecution. This means in the simplest terms that the original word of gabriel was incomplete and did not provide for his followers safety....hmmm.