Is Christmas Truly A Christian Celebration?

[Panda]

@Muhamad, you do not reply because you cannot without being exposed as a liar.

My copy of the Quran is the annotated study copy in English and Arabic from the Saudi Embassy.
It has nothing to do with hate, it has EVERYTHING to do with speaking the truth to a pagan.

I wanted to make a note of this. I have a few copies of the Qur'an, and one of them is annotated. The annotations are quite evil, much more evil than the basic text suggests. I'm not sure how I came upon that copy, but it has always bugged me. It's like taking the Bible and adding commentary that demands wickedness. There is quite a bit in the basic text that does concern me, but if we are going to discuss Islamic beliefs, I think that we need to be accurate and truthful. Attacking the more extremist factions of Islam would be the same as judging all Christians by the actions of the Westboro "Baptist" Church. The other thing to note, is that while I don't believe they use the term directly, there are some distinct denominations within Islam. They disagree just as adamantly as we do within our ranks. While it is from an outsider's point of view, the main difference here is that they seem to put their differences aside much more readily than we do. THAT at least is something I wish we could learn around here.

 

[deeezbeats]

I'll just skip on to the last page. Christmas is a pagan holiday and we shouldnt celebrate it. Not only does it have nothing to doe with Jesus, but many symbols and activities were adopted from pagans.
1 Corinthians 10:21 "You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."
Most Pastors will condone Christmas because they know if they tell people not to celebrate it, then weak minded people will just go to another church that does celebrate it. So basically the pastor will lose money.

 

[deeezbeats]

Why would God lower Himself by coming to us in the form of a man?

Why did He send prophets at all If He could come himself?

Do you not remember the people of Moses? They told Him they would not believe in God until they see Him themselves, So God destroyed them and brought them back to life, but rather then submit themselves to their lord they continued to doubt and disbelieve.


Why would God deny them seeing Him yet hundreds of years later change his mind and come down Himself to theimost r decesdants? Why would He punish them when they were with Moses, for asking from Him something He was more then willing to do?

God the almighty does not lower Himself to the body of His creation nor does He reveal Himself before judgement day. Why would He only come in person to one nation? and not the rest? Why send Joseph and Noah, Adam and Seth, Lot and Ibrahim only to come Himself to one nation bringing a teaching that He did not preserve over time?

Nah, God is one, incomparable and unimaginable. He is outside the laws of His creation as the very rules of reality bow to Him in prostration.


It is below His majesty to lower Himself to a human form, were He to come down and reveal Himself the universe in of itself would prostrate to His majesty.

Jesus was no more then a Prophet, created similar to Adam, Adam with no mother and father but Jesus had a mother.

He use to eat food, breathe, use the bathroom, sleep, He use to prostrate on the ground worshiping God. Do you claim he worshiped himself?

The signs are clear for those who are sincere, and this is enough for the people of knowledge.

The thing is Jesus is Not God Almighty. He is the firstborn of all creation. God's son. God's name is Jehovah.

Exodus 6:2,3 " Then God said to Moses: “I am Jehovah. 3And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah, I did not make myself known to them.

Psalms 83:18 "May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth."

This name appears in the Hebrew scriptures around 7000 times. It is nowhere to be found in the Koran. Sorry but we do not worship the same God.

 

[aha]

I'll just skip on to the last page. Christmas is a pagan holiday and we shouldnt celebrate it.

i think you are missing the point of post, apparently it is not about a concerned brother raising a how Christmas is celebrated.

it is a brother sowing seeds of disunity....

celebrating Christmas is already, given, surely, known, as a controversial issue with Christian denominations....

 

[deeezbeats]

i think you are missing the point of post, apparently it is not about a concerned brother raising a how Christmas is celebrated.

it is a brother sowing seeds of disunity....

celebrating Christmas is already, given, surely, known, as a controversial issue with Christian denominations....

The Op makes a good point. He is not sowing seeds of disunity. If Christians weren't celebrating it in the first place, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make us look foolish.

 

[aha]

The Op makes a good point. He is not sowing seeds of disunity. If Christians weren't celebrating it in the first place, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make us look foolish.

Precisely, we are arguing now : )

The group I belong celebrate Christmas, we see the spirit, the essence of things…

You see paganism and legalism and date politics.

 

[deeezbeats]

Precisely, we are arguing now : )

The group I belong celebrate Christmas, we see the spirit, the essence of things…

You see paganism and legalism and date politics.

You belong to the group who see's it as fun.
I don't hate on anyone for celebrating it. I just hate when people make lames excuses to do it. If you celebrate it admit that Jesus and God are displeased then go along with your celebrations.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

When I said that Christians killed billions and forced many into christianity with the sword I meant in the past.

In present times that OF COURSE is not happening, but it was only 200 years ago, and I blame that on people who are greedy and used the religious unity of Christianity to kill and conquer.

As for Islam, I lived in the middle east for 6-7 years, not once have I met someone who hates Christianity, speaks ill of it, or in anyway wishes to harm innocent people.

If I had I would've advised him against doing so using religious evidence to put down such actions.

The reason I mentioned the points above is because Mr.Cat Avatar was doing the same so I wanted to make a point to him/her that the same can be said about Christianity and that his/her accusations are both unfair and untruthful.

As for Christmas and other Christian holidays, I've already mostly said and asked about what I could/needed.

My conclusion towards it is: Christians are of two different views.

The first being: That intention only matters, that they are willing to incoporate honaka, Ramadan, Eid, Independence day, and every kind of celebration that exists as long as they intend to celebrate it in a way that worships God.....

The second opinion, the same as the Islamic one is: Innovation is harmful to the religion and it can lead many astray from the true teachings and thus should rightfully be avoided as not to cause division between the believers.

I'm of the 2nd.

 

[calvin]

When I said that Christians killed billions and forced many into christianity with the sword I meant in the past.

In present times that OF COURSE is not happening, but it was only 200 years ago, and I blame that on people who are greedy and used the religious unity of Christianity to kill and conquer.
<<SNIP>>
.

NO squirming out on this Mohamad_1996 Australia is only a little more that 200 years into its European settlement. Ohh and BTW, the first of my direct line who came here from Scotland set up/built/founded the first Presbyterian Church in Australia. That was around 200 years ago. You wanna tell me you are not falsely accusing my ancestry??? That wont wash.

 

[Mohamad_1996]

NO squirming out on this Mohamad_1996 Australia is only a little more that 200 years into its European settlement. Ohh and BTW, the first of my direct line who came here from Scotland set up/built/founded the first Presbyterian Church in Australia. That was around 200 years ago. You wanna tell me you are not falsely accusing my ancestry??? That wont wash.

hmm?

Was Austrilia unoccupied land when it was colonized? If so I apologize, I was going off memory - If you believe me or not is your choice I had other countries I could've listed, such as India, Canada,
he Caribbean Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Grenada, Guyana, Jamaica, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, Trinidad & Tobago
Sub-Saharan Africa Botswana, The Gambia, Ghana, Kenya, Lesotho, Malawi, Namibia, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Africa

SW Asia and N. Africa Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait,Palestine, Qatar, Sudan, UAE, Yemen
South Asia Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Pakistan, Sri Lanka
SE Asia Brunei, Burma, Malaysia, Singapore
Australia and Oceania Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, Tuvalu

Some of these were empty lands, while others were taken by killing the current residents and others were taken by forcing said population into Christianity.

Once again - Drop this pointless topic as even who committed said atrocities are long dead or are just a few fat men who have too much power and arrogance.

 

[calvin]

Once again - Drop this pointless topic as even who committed said atrocities are long dead or are just a few fat men who have too much power and arrogance.

You are the one who raised it, so now you want to scamper off with your tail between your legs...fine by me.

A quote from http://feelislam.com/2012/10/false-witness/

Narrated Abu Bakra: The Prophet(PBUH) said thrice, “Should I inform you out the greatest of the great sins?” They said, “Yes, O Allah’s Apostle!” He said, “To join others in worship with Allah and to be undutiful to one’s parents.” The Prophet then sat up after he had been reclining (on a pillow) and said, “And I warn you against giving a false witness, and he kept on saying that warning till we thought he would not stop.(Sahih Bukhari Book 52, Hadith 18)
Bearing false witness, spreading fake news, submitting wrong testimonials, telling lies are sins related to each other. Believers should keep away from these habits. Prophet has included bearing false witness along with great sins like shirk (associating partners with Allah) and doing harm to parents. This itself signifies the severity of this vice.

 

[dUmPsTeR]

syn·cre·tism-the attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion.

Like what took place in the book of Judges. The Hebrews/Israelites incorporated pagan idol worship.

Instead of driving the Canaanites and others out of the promised land. (or letting them assimilate)

 

[ixoye_8]

When I said that Christians killed billions and forced many into christianity with the sword I meant in the past.

hi Mohamad .. your data is not factual .. nor does somebody by claiming a title make them that just by claiming it ..

 

[ixoye_8]

people falsely blame out of listening to biased people ..
your number of "billions" is simply ridicules ..
history greatest battles in which the most died, not one of them was a religious battle ..
here is some data ..
P = political (power/land/including retaliation)
R = religious (conversion/including retaliation)
=============================
01. P 1,530,000 - Battle of Stalingrad (1942–1943)
02. P 1,500,000 - Siege of Leningrad (1941–1944)
03. P 1,425,000 - Brusilov Offensive (1916)
04. P 1,338,000 - Battle of Kursk (1943)
05. P 1,300,000 - The Merv massacre 1221
06. P 1,200,000 - The Urgench massacre 1220
07. P 900,000 - Battle of Moscow (1941–1942)
08. P 552,000 - Battle of Gallipoli (1916)
09. P 500,000 - Battle of Smolensk (1941)
10. P 400,000 - Battle of Kiev (1941)
11. P 370,000 - Battle of Belarus (1941)
12. P 330,000 - First Battle of the Marne (1914)
13. P 310,000 - Battle of Gaugamela (331 BC)
14. P 302,300 - Battle of Salsu (612)
15. P 300,000 - Battle of the Somme (1916)
16. P 280,000 - Warsaw Uprising (1944)
17. P 280,000 - Second Battle of the Aisne (1917)
18. P 270,000 - Second Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive (1942)
19. P 270,000 - Battle of West Ukraine (1944)
20. P 260,000 - Battle of Verdun (1916)
21. P 260,000 - Battle of the Caucasus (1942)
22. P 240,000 - Third Battle of the Aisne (1918)
23. P 240,000 - Battle of Bibracte (58 BC)
24. P 230,000 - Battle of Berlin (1945)
25. P 230,000–350,000 - Battle of Kursk (1943)
26. P 200,000 - Battle of Chi Bi, China (208 AD)
27. P 200,000 - Battle of Carthage (149 BC–146 BC)
28. P 190,000 - Battle of West Ukraine (1941)
29. P 180,000 - Battle of France (1940)
30. P 175,000–350,000 - Operation Bagration (1944)
31. P 170,000 - Battle of the Lower Dnieper (1943)
32. P 170,000 - Battle of Königsberg (1945)
33. P 165,000–300,000 Battle of Chalons (451)
34. P 150,000 - Battle of Rostov (1941)
35. P 150,000 - Battle of Okinawa (1945)
36. P 150,000 - Battle of Passchendaele (1917)
37. P 140,000 - Battle of Vercellae (101 BC)
38. P 132,000 - Battle of Normandy (1944)
39. P 130,000 - Battle of Budapest (1945)
40. P 125,000 - Third Battle of Nanking (1864)
41. P 125,000 - Battle of Lemberg (1914)
42. P 120,000 - Battle of Arausio (105 BC)
43. P 117,000 - Battle for the Liberation of Manila (1945)
44. P 115,000 - Battle of the Frontiers (1914)
45. P 105,000 - Operation Karbala-5 (1987)
46. P 100,000 - Battle of Chernikov-Poltava (1943)
47. P 100,000 - Battle of Smolensk (1943)

 

[ixoye_8]

and if you want to talk about the crusades, then Muslims are credited with 4.5 million of the 9 million total ..

It is true that after the conquest of Jerusalem in 1076 by Seljuk Turks there were accounts of persecutions by pilmgrims returning from Holy Land. But the the worst case of persecution against Christians in Holy Land was that of Fatimid caliph al-Hakim who in 1009 ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcre in Jerusalem and obliged a lot of Christians to abjure their faith.

NINE Crusades
1st Crusade 1095-1099 (4 years)
2nd Crusade 1147–1149 (2 years)
3rd Crusade 1187–1192 (5 years)
4th Crusade 1202–1204 (2 years)
5th Crusade 1217–1221 (4 years)
6th Crusade 1228–1229 (1 year)
7th Crusade 1248–1254 (6 years)
8th Crusade 1270-1271 (1 year)
9th Crusade 1271–1272 (1 year)

Other Crusades
Albigensian Crusade (1209–1229) (20 years)
Prussian Crusade 1260 (1 year)
Wendish Crusade (1147) (1 year)
Stedinger Crusade (1232-1234) (1 year) NON-MUSLIM
Aragonese Crusade (1284-1285) (1 year) NON-MUSLIM
1st Swedish Crusade (1155) (1 year)
2nd Swedish Crusade (1249) (1 year)
3rd Swedish Crusade (1293) (1 year)
Hussite Crusade (1420-1434) (14 years) NON-MUSLIM
Crusades in the Balkans
a) Crusade of Nicopolis (1396) (1 year)
b) Crusade of Varna (1444) (1 year)
c) Crusade of Belgrade (1456) (1 year)
Tatar Crusades (not counted) NON-RELIGIOUS
Lepanto Crusade (1571) (1 year)
Candia Crusade (not counted) ISLAMIC JIHAD

Over a span of 500 years caused an estimated up to 9 MILLION deaths

 

[ixoye_8]

so your culprits are nations not for religious reasons ..

Russian Revolution (1917) & Chinese Revolution (1946–1950)
In 15 years caused between 50 MILLION - 100 MILLION deaths

World War I (1914-1918) & World War II (1939-1945)
In 10 years caused 100 MILLION deaths (60 MILLION civilians)

146 wars since 1945
In 60 years caused 30 MILLION deaths (22 MILLION civilians)

 

[ixoye_8]

and here is the Inquisition ..
Giving the Inquisition the HIGHEST count there is only 5,000 Deaths

The historian Hernando del Pulgar, contemporary of Ferdinand and Isabella, estimated that the Inquisition had burned at the stake 2,000 people and reconciled another 15,000 by 1490 (just one decade after the Inquisition began).

Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo Histórico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1540 and 1700. This material provides information about 44,674 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These 44,674 cases include 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie. This material, however, is far from being complete - for example, the tribunal of Cuenca is entirely omitted, because no relaciones de causas from this tribunal has been found, and significant gaps concern some other tribunals (e.g. Valladolid). Many more cases not reported to Suprema are known from the other sources (e.g. no relaciones de causas from Cuenca has been found, but its original records has been preserved), but were not included in Contreras-Hennigsen's statistics for the methodological reasons. William Monter estimates 1000 executions between 1530-1630 and 250 between 1630-1730.

The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy. Ricardo García Cárcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia. These authors' investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras. Henry Kamen gives the number of about 2,000 executions in persona in the whole Spain up to 1530.

García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700—about 2%—the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.

However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, and owing to the gaps in documentation, it is unlikely that the exact number will ever be known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

 

[dUmPsTeR]

When I said that Christians killed billions and forced many into christianity with the sword I meant in the past.

In present times that OF COURSE is not happening, but it was only 200 years ago, and I blame that on people who are greedy and used the religious unity of Christianity to kill and conquer.

As for Islam, I lived in the middle east for 6-7 years, not once have I met someone who hates Christianity, speaks ill of it, or in anyway wishes to harm innocent people.

If I had I would've advised him against doing so using religious evidence to put down such actions.

The reason I mentioned the points above is because Mr.Cat Avatar was doing the same so I wanted to make a point to him/her that the same can be said about Christianity and that his/her accusations are both unfair and untruthful.

As for Christmas and other Christian holidays, I've already mostly said and asked about what I could/needed.

My conclusion towards it is: Christians are of two different views.

The first being: That intention only matters, that they are willing to incoporate honaka, Ramadan, Eid, Independence day, and every kind of celebration that exists as long as they intend to celebrate it in a way that worships God.....

The second opinion, the same as the Islamic one is: Innovation is harmful to the religion and it can lead many astray from the true teachings and thus should rightfully be avoided as not to cause division between the believers.

I'm of the 2nd.

IMO, A lot of Christmas was created to detract, or distract from what, or Who (God), we should be focused on. But you have to understand that 'Man' inherently doesn't want to focus on God.

 

[ixoye_8]

seems to me the non-Christians are 1000x worse ..

in the case of the Crusades it was retalitory and half of the deaths over the 500 years, was by Islamics who also invaded and killed aoccupied many countries ..

and in the case of the inquisitions the total was between 3000 & 5000 for the entire time ..

and in the case of the American Indians, by what data do you have to say Christians killed Indians ??? .. I believe this was a deliberate POLITICAL genocide by the American Government using the military as their tool .. look up "manifest destiney"

 

[ixoye_8]

as to your original question ..
you are being fed a lot of garbage ..

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ ..
the date of Dec 25 was applied to the birth of Christ before it was to Sol Invictus ..
I know that bothers Muslims as they even wrote on the outside of the Dome of the Rock "God has no son" .. so it really makes me wonder why you came in here .. certainly not to learn .. the Qur'an states Israel was given to the Hebrews by God ..
so why do Muslims go against God on that ???

The birth of Jesus is celebrated on Dec. 25th. Christ’s birth on this day was officially set by the Roman Church in 336AD.

There is no record of celebrating Sol on December 25 prior to CE 354/362. Hijmans lists the known festivals of Sol as August 8 and/or 9, August 28, and December 11. There are no sources that indicate on which day Aurelian inaugurated his temple and held the first games for Sol, but we do know that these games were held every four years from CE 274 onwards. This means that they were presumably held in CE 354, a year for which perchance a Roman calendar, the Chronography of 354 (or calendar of Filocalus), has survived. This calendar lists a festival for Sol and Luna on August 28, Ludi Solis (games for Sol) for October 19–22, and a Natalis Invicti (birthday of the invincible one) on December 25. While it is widely assumed that the invictus of December 25 is Sol, the calendar does not state this explicitly. The only explicit reference to a celebration of Sol in late December is made by Julian the Apostate in his hymn to King Helios written immediately afterwards in early CE 363. Julian explicitly differentiates between the one-day, annual celebration of late December 362 and the multi-day quadrennial games of Sol which, of course, had also been held in 362, but clearly at a different time. Taken together, the evidence of the Calendar of Filocalus and Julian's hymn to Helios clearly shows, according to Hijmans and others, that the ludi of October 19–22 were the Solar Games instituted by Aurelian. They presumably coincided with the dedication of his new temple for Sol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus