Labour unions

[rtm3039]

To my knowledge it is not common in Australia for Churches to pay cleaners to clean the Church. Most are volunteers.
And this raises an interesting side topic. I noticed on another Christian forum that it is common for Christian Churches in America to pay professional singers/musicians for their music industry. Is that right? In my experience, there are plenty of willing volunteers to take on the music ministry role in Catholic Churches in Australia. In some parishes it is almost competitive.

My wife is a teacher here in Miami and her union dues are around $1,000 a year. I work for the school system also; however, not long enough to join the union. The school system has, I believe, at least six unions to cover the various types of employment. Yes, even is you are not part of the union, you do benefit from their efforts.

Last November, during the general election, a bill was passed that will result in a 20% pay raise for all teachers in our county. It starts in August of this year and was the first pay raise in about 10 years. New teachers are not paid all that well, but teachers who have been around for a while are not paid bad. I believe my wife, who has been around for over 15 years and has a master's degree, is paid a little over $60k. With her 20% raise, that's another $12k. So, $72k a year is not bad for a job where you get the summers off. Oh, if she teaches a "6th period supplement" (six classes a day), that's another 6k.

Keep in mind; however, that the cost of living in Miami is really high.

The teachers here are not allowed to go on strike, so it has never happened. In other places, especially those with really low salaries, I can see why they do it.

rtm3039

 

[justanothersinner]

ok well heres a reveal for you. im qualified to teach elementary school in Australia . In Western Australia I can earn 85 000 a year due to quals. and experience. Problem is Ive lost my nerve. I suffer bouts of anxiety which would do no one any favours, especially the kids. Im a self conscious worry wart. Always have been.
Sadly or not my temperament is more suited to loner cleaning. Some might say I have given up and they might be right.
Oops this has gone off topic. Ray was talking about his wife teaching in Florida. My name is Joe by the way.

 

[bobinfaith]

To my knowledge it is not common in Australia for Churches to pay cleaners to clean the Church. Most are volunteers.
And this raises an interesting side topic. I noticed on another Christian forum that it is common for Christian Churches in America to pay professional singers/musicians for their music industry. Is that right? In my experience, there are plenty of willing volunteers to take on the music ministry role in Catholic Churches in Australia. In some parishes it is almost competitive.

Hello Joe;

Great point and would like to share from my experience in the church. Most Christian churches are automous. We are all to be one in accord with Christ Jesus and the Gospel, but each individual church governs their own by-laws, budget, etc...

Many churches have their own cleaners. When our church was a couple of years old, I submitted to a cleaning schedule and would clean the bathrooms, mop the sanctuary, wipe down the kitchen and grab a donut in the fridge because no one was looking. lol!

Other churches will budget a cleaning person, or cleaning service and pay them a salary to clean weekly or arranged work schedule.

Its great when a church has its own musicians serve in the music ministry. Years ago at the church I served we played in the music ministry and were all volunteers.

Today my church staff pays an accomplished pianist to assist our praise team which has been a God send because our pianist feels very much a part of our church - pot lucks, Christmas party, etc...However, we respect her profession because she is a piano teacher and this is her living.

God bless you, Joe and your family.

 

[rtm3039]

Hello Joe;

Great point and would like to share from my experience in the church. Most Christian churches are automous. We are all to be one in accord with Christ Jesus and the Gospel, but each individual church governs their own by-laws, budget, etc...

Many churches have their own cleaners. When our church was a couple of years old, I submitted to a cleaning schedule and would clean the bathrooms, mop the sanctuary, wipe down the kitchen and grab a donut in the fridge because no one was looking. lol!

Other churches will budget a cleaning person, or cleaning service and pay them a salary to clean weekly or arranged work schedule.

Its great when a church has its own musicians serve in the music ministry. Years ago at the church I served we played in the music ministry and were all volunteers.

Today my church staff pays an accomplished pianist to assist our praise team which has been a God send because our pianist feels very much a part of our church - pot lucks, Christmas party, etc...However, we respect her profession because she is a piano teacher and this is her living.

God bless you, Joe and your family.

The church I attend (Christ Fellowship (CF)) is both very large and now has seven campuses throughout Miami-Dade County. They ask for volunteers in Guest Services, CF Kids Program, CF Student Services, the Production Team, the Security Team, Small Group Leaders, and the Worship Team. Each has their own responsibilities, with the Guest Services Team being responsible for grounds maintenance and general cleaning of the church. In addition, they also hire full time staff. Today, I just checked, they are looking for Campus Director, a CF Kids Director, a CF Student Director, a Communications Manager, a Graphic Designed, a Security Officer, a Worship Director, and a Videographer.

I only have personal knowledge of the Security Team, which has over 200 volunteers and a full-time security director. None of the positions provide details of compensation, but I suspect it is not all that much. Based on their public financial statements, last reported for 2017, their expenses were listed at $15,275.795. This includes salaries; however, it includes many other expenses and they do not report, publicly, each category. I have been told; however, that anyone can request specific information and it will be provided.

Personally, I have seen what our pasture drives, which is a very old car, so the money does not go into his transportation. He also lives on church property.

rtm3039

 

[Major]

To my knowledge it is not common in Australia for Churches to pay cleaners to clean the Church. Most are volunteers.
And this raises an interesting side topic. I noticed on another Christian forum that it is common for Christian Churches in America to pay professional singers/musicians for their music industry. Is that right? In my experience, there are plenty of willing volunteers to take on the music ministry role in Catholic Churches in Australia. In some parishes it is almost competitive.

It works both ways here. At times there are people who will volunteer to clean and sometimes there are none.

We have found that paying someone gets more reliability.

As for music, we do not pay our musicians. Many churches do but we do not. I really do not have a problem if they asked to be paid.
It requires a lot of time and practice on their part.

 

[rtm3039]

It works both ways here. At times there are people who will volunteer to clean and sometimes there are none.

We have found that paying someone gets more reliability.

As for music, we do not pay our musicians. Many churches do but we do not. I really do not have a problem if they asked to be paid.
It requires a lot of time and practice on their part.

Major,

On Sundays, I like to show up early, around 8:15 or so, with the first service being at 9:00. The largest volunteer groups is always Guest Services. They usually start off the day my getting in a circle and the campus pastor catches them up on church business and leads them in a prayer. Usually, I see well over 20 people doing this. They then go off to do their thing. I do see them cleaning up, in between services.

As for the band (aka: Worship Team), I have talked to several of them, but never asked if they are paid. The two main lead vocals sound like they should be professionals. They do four performances (one on Saturday and three on Sunday).

Here is one of their videos: https://www.cfmiami.org/music

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

So who is paid and who isnt?
As far as I know, the paid people in one of the churches I attend are...the pastor, office admin, cleaner and lawnmower man. Everyone else volunteers.

I dont quite understand how the pastor gets paid and wonder if there are many churches where the pastor isnt paid. I would have thought he would just be paid with free board at the manse in next door and have his living expenses covered. But then I dont really know how churches operate they are all different.

People give their time and energy freely to the church and seems a shame when what people give isnt appreciated or its outright rejected. Or when they bring people who dont belong to the church in and pay them. They could even be unbelievers which ive heard some churches have resorted to doing. To me that seems not right.

 

[rtm3039]

So who is paid and who isnt?
As far as I know, the paid people in one of the churches I attend are...the pastor, office admin, cleaner and lawnmower man. Everyone else volunteers.

I dont quite understand how the pastor gets paid and wonder if there are many churches where the pastor isnt paid. I would have thought he would just be paid with free board at the manse in next door and have his living expenses covered. But then I dont really know how churches operate they are all different.

People give their time and energy freely to the church and seems a shame when what people give isnt appreciated or its outright rejected. Or when they bring people who dont belong to the church in and pay them. They could even be unbelievers which ive heard some churches have resorted to doing. To me that seems not right.

Lanolin,

Assuming the pastor has a family, he would need more than just the basic needs. You have kids, school stuff, and other things that most kids need/want. I looked the info up and came up with the following "The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,595 as of April 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $78,572 and $108,350."

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

Assuming the pastor has a family, he would need more than just the basic needs. You have kids, school stuff, and other things that most kids need/want. I looked the info up and came up with the following "The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,595 as of April 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $78,572 and $108,350."

rtm3039

He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family.

 

[Lanolin]

Jesus said to Peter, feed my sheep, feed my lambs. I note he didnt say feed the kids. Or feed only your own kids.

Note they are Jesus lambs, Jesus sheep. They belong to Him.

 

[rtm3039]

He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family.

Lanolin,

Yes, but it is still a fill-time job that requires a retirement plan, medical, etc.

What's the chapter and verse on this?

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

Yes, but it is still a fill-time job that requires a retirement plan, medical, etc.

What's the chapter and verse on this?

As far as I know there is no retirement plan for ministers, I was talking to one the other day and he said he still ministers he wont retire though hes technically meant to be. He still preaches and does bible studies.

Its a calling not a 'job' as such. Although in the bible it says elders are to have double honor...so the way you honor elders is to give them i suppose honoriums or benefits for their advanced age. But really its childrens children..grandchildren...that reflect their glory. Their children are the ones who look after them and also carry on their legacy and life work...or meant to. Good health comes from living a healthy life doing good works not working oneself to the bone and having health complications afterwards due to overwork.

A pastor would be in that role 24/7 I dont think theres a time when you just clock in and clock out of being a pastor. You cant really quantify the work a pastor does.

 

[rtm3039]

As far as I know there is no retirement plan for ministers, I was talking to one the other day and he said he still ministers he wont retire though hes technically meant to be. He still preaches and does bible studies.

Its a calling not a 'job' as such. Although in the bible it says elders are to have double honor...so the way you honor elders is to give them i suppose honoriums or benefits for their advanced age. But really its childrens children..grandchildren...that reflect their glory. Their children are the ones who look after them and also carry on their legacy and life work...or meant to. Good health comes from living a healthy life doing good works not working oneself to the bone and having health complications afterwards due to overwork.

A pastor would be in that role 24/7 I dont think theres a time when you just clock in and clock out of being a pastor. You cant really quantify the work a pastor does.

Lanolin,

I guess, but Pastor Rick just came off a two week vacation to South Carolina. Yes, it is a calling, but yes, it is also a job. They also pay taxes, to include what we call here FICA (Social Security and Medicare). And, from talking to some of the administrative people, the church has a 401K retirement plan. Since we have both a lead pastor and campus pastors, our lead pastor skips several weeks in between sermons.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

I guess, but Pastor Rick just came off a two week vacation to South Carolina. Yes, it is a calling, but yes, it is also a job. They also pay taxes, to include what we call here FICA (Social Security and Medicare). And, from talking to some of the administrative people, the church has a 401K retirement plan. Since we have both a lead pastor and campus pastors, our lead pastor skips several weeks in between sermons.

rtm3039

Maybe in the usa its treated more like a job.

I would think because church is a designated a charity it would be exempt from paying taxes. And that pastors wouldnt earn enough to pay taxes anyway. But I suppose different laws in different countries apply, in usa theyve already married some church with state and churches over there are treated like business corporations. They meant to make profits like every other business I suppose which is why a lot of them sell church merchandise.

The purpose driven life type churches certainly treated being a minister like a ceo of a corporation and used corporate strategies to 'grow' a church. The main tip from that book was...plant a church in a rich suburb like orange county. Then your wealthy customers (er...parishioners) will pay your salary and you wont starve.

Yet Jesus said he was anointed to give the gospel to the poor. Well, the poor dont exist in certain suburbs where get rich quick religious types want to plant churches.

 

[bobinfaith]

I dont quite understand how the pastor gets paid and wonder if there are many churches where the pastor isnt paid. I would have thought he would just be paid with free board at the manse in next door and have his living expenses covered. But then I dont really know how churches operate they are all different.

People give their time and energy freely to the church and seems a shame when what people give isnt appreciated or its outright rejected. Or when they bring people who dont belong to the church in and pay them. They could even be unbelievers which ive heard some churches have resorted to doing. To me that seems not right.

Lanolin, Assuming the pastor has a family, he would need more than just the basic needs. You have kids, school stuff, and other things that most kids need/want. I looked the info up and came up with the following "The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,595 as of April 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $78,572 and $108,350."
rtm3039

Hello Lanolin and rtm3039;

I read both your posts/views and it hones in on your church automony. Lanolin, your church board of directors may have a budget and pastor description that may be different from rtm3039's church budget/pastor description. One church may have living accommodations and benefits aside from salary for one pastor and another church cannot afford the extra benefits and housing.

Pastors who have to support themselves is quite common worldwide in God's churches. Its called bivocational. Many pastors hold down jobs while sheperding the church.

There are actually churches where the pastor doesn't collect a salary, I just don't know of one.

When our church planted I was bivocational, meaning I worked fulltime in accounting and fulltime during our church plant. Yes, it was hard work at the time but I loved every moment of it.

When attendance increased, (besides outside church supporters who sent love offerings,) our offerings increased and the board was able to pay me a small salary. When the church was able to increase my salary a little bit more, I was able to retire from my accounting career in 2015, took a step of faith and serve fulltime only in the church.

Aside from shepherding, I also mopped floors, cleaned the bathrooms and kitchen. These were humble beginnings but I loved every moment and remember clearly how God provided everything.

This was the situation at our church, therefore, each church has their own way of governing according to their board and by-laws.

Ray, as far as the average pastor's salary in the United States, on paper, are large churches with large offerings and churches that tithe over and above. We cannot forget that God's Hand is in every provision depending on each church's needs for their ministries, whether large and small.

Of course, most of the small churches cannot afford those average pastor salaries because the offerings are not as large compared to medium and mega churches. Still, God always provides to these smaller churches and their needs for ministry.

We cannot compare the governance of each church because God has a different vision and mission for each one of His churches. What He commands is we love and worship the True God, love others and bring the unreached to Christ Jesus, and become disciples of the Gospel.

How we govern our home churches He entrusts to the church family.

I hope this helps a little bit.

God bless you all and your families.

 

[Lanolin]

Yea its usually the board that determines what pastors can be paid and it differs from church to church.

This is also the same with teachers. The board of trustees can decide whether the teachers have support staff or not. When teachers go on strike across the country it suggests that something issnt right not only with the way the boards run the schools, but in the expectations the govt imposes on the teachers. There are large schools and small schools, wealthy ones and impoverished ones just like churches can vary from wealthy populations to poor ones depending on the areas demographics.

The churches themselves represent the people living there, the churches themselves do not determine the wealth of the population just as schools do, although people can vote with their feet which churches or schools they will attend, especially if theyve got a few in the area to choose from. But it isnt the case that a church is thriving because they have a certain amount of offerings. Spiritual life is measured in the character of the saints, not the amount of offerings, or how well paid the pastor is.
Likewise for schools, it wouldnt be number of graduates or sports achievements, or wether the teachers are satisfied with their pay. you would have to measure how good a school, is by the atmosphere and values of the students and how they conduct their lives.

 

[Major]

He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family.

My dear Lanolin, I appreciate you opinion and with no disrespect to you, but your comment is very short sighted and is not Biblical.

A somewhat common belief in modern days is that if salvation is by grace, ministry should be free. After all, the pastor only works two hours a week. This is a matter of what a church wants and needs in a pastor. If they want someone who is available for counseling, directing volunteers, immediate emergencies, and shepherding, that is a full-time job, and it is stealing to pay less than a full-time salary. If a church cannot afford a full-time salary, they may need to find a pastor who is flexible enough to take a second job. Everyone involved, however, will have to approach the situation with grace, realizing that a part-time pastor will not be able to accomplish as much or be as involved as a full-time minister.​

if a man commits his life to Christ and then attends a Christian Seminary instead of a work place college so that he can intellectually know what he is talking about to his church members, do you not think that the church should compensate him for his commitment???

1 Tim. 5:17-18...………

"​

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture​

says.

"Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

1st Corinthians 9:13-14..............

"Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."​

​

A lot of people think that when a man says he is called to preach, God then gifts that man with all that he needs to be successful and THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

Too many men have said..."I was called to preach", never obtained any formal education and then when he became a pastor they failed in that position because he could not properly divide the Word of God.

Pastoring a church is a fulltime job. He has to be on call to go visit the sick at all times of the day. He has to do weddings and funerals. He has to Go to jails and talk with and support those that are locked up. If he is working another full time job it is absolutely impossible to do those things.

He is also responsible for the finances of the church and is he has no formal training in the accounting and handling of money he will fail and if he has no ability to be able to communicate with others he will fail.

 

[Major]

Lanolin,

Assuming the pastor has a family, he would need more than just the basic needs. You have kids, school stuff, and other things that most kids need/want. I looked the info up and came up with the following "The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,595 as of April 27, 2019, but the range typically falls between $78,572 and $108,350."

rtm3039

It also has a lot to do with the size of the church itself. A large church would be somewhere around 500 members.

If there was little or no debt then the salary would be what ever those members wanted to pay the pastor to keep him there.

A smaller church of lets say 25 people may not be able to support a full time pastor and then YES he should seek another job. If God has called him the church should grow to a point where they can pay him a full time salary.

I already know that some will challenge what I am about to say. but IMHO God does not call Pastors to other churches.

God calls a man to preach but the chairman of a churches "Search Committee" calls a pastor to his church and that calling is almost always based on salary.

IF a Church loves its pastor and wants him to say with them, then they will pay him what he is worth TO THEM. If they do not do that, he will make I known that he is needing more money to provide for his family and then another church will make it possible for him to come to their church.

Now that is not the case ALL the time. Sometimes there are personality problems that come up over time. Sometimes there is a work ethic involved. Sometimes it becomes known that he really does not know the Scriptures. However, I would say that "most' of the time it is as I just explained.

 

[Lanolin]

My dear Lanolin, I appreciate you opinion and with no disrespect to you, but your comment is very short sighted and is not Biblical.

A somewhat common belief in modern days is that if salvation is by grace, ministry should be free. After all, the pastor only works two hours a week. This is a matter of what a church wants and needs in a pastor. If they want someone who is available for counseling, directing volunteers, immediate emergencies, and shepherding, that is a full-time job, and it is stealing to pay less than a full-time salary. If a church cannot afford a full-time salary, they may need to find a pastor who is flexible enough to take a second job. Everyone involved, however, will have to approach the situation with grace, realizing that a part-time pastor will not be able to accomplish as much or be as involved as a full-time minister.​

if a man commits his life to Christ and then attends a Christian Seminary instead of a work place college so that he can intellectually know what he is talking about to his church members, do you not think that the church should compensate him for his commitment???

1 Tim. 5:17-18...………

"​

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture​

says.

"Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

1st Corinthians 9:13-14..............

"Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."​

​

A lot of people think that when a man says he is called to preach, God then gifts that man with all that he needs to be successful and THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

Too many men have said..."I was called to preach", never obtained any formal education and then when he became a pastor they failed in that position because he could not properly divide the Word of God.

Pastoring a church is a fulltime job. He has to be on call to go visit the sick at all times of the day. He has to do weddings and funerals. He has to Go to jails and talk with and support those that are locked up. If he is working another full time job it is absolutely impossible to do those things.

He is also responsible for the finances of the church and is he has no formal training in the accounting and handling of money he will fail and if he has no ability to be able to communicate with others he will fail.

Actually my comment was biblical, look it up its in the Bible.1 timothy 5:8

The rest of what you say is your opinion but some of what you have said is not even biblical. So please dont accuse ME of being short sighted. I read the Bible and have referred to it. I am not making things up.

Yes the worker is worthy of his wages but that implies that the worker does actually do some work. You are missing the point that God does provide for all our needs even pastors so that we are not beholden to anyone. And its clear in the Bible that minsiters are not to love money, or as my KJV says 'filfthy lucre' pastoring is not ever going to be a lucrative deal, and is not dependent on salary.

Likewises teachers do not teach just so they can have a pay packet. They teach cos they actually have something to teach. Some people have this the other way round . Your calling is first, pay is secondary.

Otherwise, in your scheme of things, only rich areas would have churches and schools. Which is not the case.

 

[Lanolin]

Romans 12:6-8 says teaching is actually a spiritual gift.

There are many people God has gifted with teaching, yes they need to be trained etc. but its first of all a gift. You either have this gift to use and share, or you dont. Its not like a job, like say, factory work that anybody with two hands can do. . Its actually a gift.