Labour unions

[Lanolin]

Good morning Lanolin,

Take a moment and think through your remarks. You really think it is a good idea "not" to pay for these "things?" If you want to be a teacher, yo have to possess a college degree. In most cases, you need a master's degree. Unless you can afford to pay for them out of pocket, you will been student loans. You have to live somewhere and, unless you rent or live in the backseat of your car, this will result in a mortgage. You need insurance, mostly because it is the law.

We do not live in 20 AD. Since then, the world has become much more complicated and larger. It is estimated that the population then was around 170 to 400 million (this is mostly an educated guess. See: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/...ational-programs/historical-est-worldpop.html ). Now we are at over 7.3 billion. We must still live as Jesus commands, but this has to be given a modern context. I agree with you, in that we should all aim for a simpler life, but we cannot all stay home and make candle holders. There are modern conveniences that we need. How popular would this forum be, without a personal computer, electricity, and internet access?

My office is 18 miles away from home. It takes me over an hour to get there, in a car. There is no public transportation what gets me there and, on a bike, it would take me hours which, at 90 degrees and with a humidity factor of 80%, would require me to bathe as soon as I got to the office.

Yes, the Lord will provide, but it has to be in modern day context. What people did not have back then was due to the technology of the time. I am pretty confident that, had there been cars back then, Jesus and his disciples would have availed themselves of a pre-owned Ford product.

rtm3039


rtm3039

You need to be open to alternative ways of doing things. Whats modern for YOU is now old hat to the new generation.
You can have free teritary education these days also with open universities and can do online.
So actually loans will become a thing of the past because its going to be free. I am now doing a course thats free even with student allowance. Actually it was only in the past few decades that tertiary education was expensive, of you did study and did well it was actually paid for with a bursary, its only when the govt changed the system and did away with many apprenticeships and training schemes that people needed to take huge loans.

Mortage, nobody actually has to have mortgage with a bank and get insurance. You can save to buy a house if thats what you want to do with a co op or mutual building society. Also parents and grandparents can invest their inheritance into providing homes for their offspring.

You can work from home with technology these days. Its only govts whove controlled land use thats made people into a commuter society where they have to go miles to work. I walk to work, it takes me half an hour to get to school. There is no way i would consider taking a job that would take me hours by car to get there and even have to pay for parking.

Thing is God will make a way and one has to think outside the box. Those 'modern' ways simply dont work for the new generation, and we have to put up with the legacy of their decisions they made back then that make it harder for us to live.

 

[Lanolin]

Actually we dont need a lot, and never did say we should go back to using candles if our homes are wired up with electiricity. But you can actually produced electricty yourself with solar power. Some new homes these days produce energy instead of consuming it!

Once you needed to pay for internet connection, now with broadband and wireless systems in place, you can access it for free. Its on peoples interest to have free access.

Also think about libraries. Carnegie specified that all public libraries he built with his name (he was a wealthy philantrhopist) were to be FREE. So you dont even need to pay for books. They are shared and they are free

 

[rtm3039]

You need to be open to alternative ways of doing things. Whats modern for YOU is now old hat to the new generation.
You can have free teritary education these days also with open universities and can do online.
So actually loans will become a thing of the past because its going to be free. I am now doing a course thats free even with student allowance. Actually it was only in the past few decades that tertiary education was expensive, of you did study and did well it was actually paid for with a bursary, its only when the govt changed the system and did away with many apprenticeships and training schemes that people needed to take huge loans.

Mortage, nobody actually has to have mortgage with a bank and get insurance. You can save to buy a house if thats what you want to do with a co op or mutual building society. Also parents and grandparents can invest their inheritance into providing homes for their offspring.

You can work from home with technology these days. Its only govts whove controlled land use thats made people into a commuter society where they have to go miles to work. I walk to work, it takes me half an hour to get to school. There is no way i would consider taking a job that would take me hours by car to get there and even have to pay for parking.

Thing is God will make a way and one has to think outside the box. Those 'modern' ways simply dont work for the new generation, and we have to put up with the legacy of their decisions they made back then that make it harder for us to live.

"Whats modern for YOU is now old hat to the new generation." I teach technology to this "new generation."

Politically, I believe that post high-school education (either a trade or a basic college education" should be "free," but free is an illusion. It's either paid through loans or through taxes. And, to be honest with you, an on-line education is more expensive that the traditional way, because there is a cost for that technology.

Even if you were able to "save" to purchase a home, where is still insurance matters and property taxes to deal with. This is not to mention that it would take people way too many years to save enough to actually purchase a home. In America, a mortgage is a time honored tradition. Your home ends up being one of the largest investments you make. The median price for a single-family home in Miami, FL is $350,000 (525,144 in your currency), and the median price for condos is $160,000 (240,064).

 

[rtm3039]

Actually we dont need a lot, and never did say we should go back to using candles if our homes are wired up with electiricity. But you can actually produced electricty yourself with solar power. Some new homes these days produce energy instead of consuming it!

Once you needed to pay for internet connection, now with broadband and wireless systems in place, you can access it for free. Its on peoples interest to have free access.

Also think about libraries. Carnegie specified that all public libraries he built with his name (he was a wealthy philantrhopist) were to be FREE. So you dont even need to pay for books. They are shared and they are free

Free is an illusion. One way or the other, someone is paying the bill.

 

[Lanolin]

Free is an illusion. One way or the other, someone is paying the bill.

Well you not gonna like the Kingdom of God then, where everything is going to be free. You cant earn your way in.

 

[Lanolin]

"Whats modern for YOU is now old hat to the new generation." I teach technology to this "new generation."

Politically, I believe that post high-school education (either a trade or a basic college education" should be "free," but free is an illusion. It's either paid through loans or through taxes. And, to be honest with you, an on-line education is more expensive that the traditional way, because there is a cost for that technology.

Even if you were able to "save" to purchase a home, where is still insurance matters and property taxes to deal with. This is not to mention that it would take people way too many years to save enough to actually purchase a home. In America, a mortgage is a time honored tradition. Your home ends up being one of the largest investments you make. The median price for a single-family home in Miami, FL is $350,000 (525,144 in your currency), and the median price for condos is $160,000 (240,064).

Baby boomers are rather short sighted and dont understand about inheritance. They think everyone should just buy their own home but they forget that house prices are always going up way above what people can reasonably afford.

They arent even willing to pass on their homes to the next generation. Which was what was always done in the past if you owned a home. They just see property as investment to be sold not actually land that is going to be cherished by future generations. jesus said the meek shall inerit the earth. He wasnt kidding. Note he didnt say the rich are going to buy it.

 

[Lanolin]

Regarding labour union...Jesus sermon on the mount seems relevant here. I think he doesnt want us to be concerned with money so much and always worrying about it, tho its human nature to worry about such things. See matthew 6:19-34

Are we labouring for money, or are we labouring for God? And isnt God the one who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. So hes got more than enough to give to us.

 

[rtm3039]

Regarding labour union...Jesus sermon on the mount seems relevant here. I think he doesnt want us to be concerned with money so much and always worrying about it, tho its human nature to worry about such things. See matthew 6:19-34

Are we labouring for money, or are we labouring for God? And isnt God the one who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. So hes got more than enough to give to us.

Lanolin,

Yes “And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus” Phil 4:19). So, one can argue that one of the “things” God has provided us is protection from employment abuses via unions.

I work for my county’s school board and investigate allegations of employee misconduct. My county has the 4th largest school district in the country; 350,000 students and over 40,000 employees in almost 500 schools. There are many unions, as each type of job has its own union. Aside from negotiations on compensation, they also provide members with guidance on issues.

God does not promise to get us out of our dilemmas, but to provide a way for us to get out of them ourselves. So, He will provide a ram (or cattle in your example), but fully expects us to wrestle it into submission.

“No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.”.(1 Corinthians 10: 13).

So, yes, God will provide the wood, hammer, and nails, but He fully expects you to build the ark on your own.

rtm3039

 

[rtm3039]

Baby boomers are rather short sighted and dont understand about inheritance. They think everyone should just buy their own home but they forget that house prices are always going up way above what people can reasonably afford.

They arent even willing to pass on their homes to the next generation. Which was what was always done in the past if you owned a home. They just see property as investment to be sold not actually land that is going to be cherished by future generations. jesus said the meek shall inerit the earth. He wasnt kidding. Note he didnt say the rich are going to buy it.

Lanolin,

You sure do make a great deal of generalizations; "Baby boomers are... They arent [sic] even willing..." It is probably not wise to paint an entire generation with one brush stroke. I know of no one that plans on donating their worldly possessions to the family cat. However, I do know of many Generation X'ers still living in their parent's garage.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

You sure do make a great deal of generalizations; "Baby boomers are... They arent [sic] even willing..." It is probably not wise to paint an entire generation with one brush stroke. I know of no one that plans on donating their worldly possessions to the family cat. However, I do know of many Generation X'ers still living in their parent's garage.

rtm3039

?
Its because the economy makes it harder for them to afford a home, not because they maybe dont want to have their own place. Well this is my persoective, dont know about the cat thing. What baby boomers seem to do is spend their retirment on cruise ship holidays and living it up. I know because i worked in retirment villages. They not looking after grandchildren at all, in fact, they are banned from living in those villages.

 

[Lanolin]

Lanolin,

Yes “And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus” Phil 4:19). So, one can argue that one of the “things” God has provided us is protection from employment abuses via unions.

I work for my county’s school board and investigate allegations of employee misconduct. My county has the 4th largest school district in the country; 350,000 students and over 40,000 employees in almost 500 schools. There are many unions, as each type of job has its own union. Aside from negotiations on compensation, they also provide members with guidance on issues.

God does not promise to get us out of our dilemmas, but to provide a way for us to get out of them ourselves. So, He will provide a ram (or cattle in your example), but fully expects us to wrestle it into submission.



“No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.”.(1 Corinthians 10: 13).

So, yes, God will provide the wood, hammer, and nails, but He fully expects you to build the ark on your own.

rtm3039

Hmm dont know about the 'on your own' thing I thought the whole point of unions was because of the large numbers all joined together as one, not just each person for themselves. When was part of the union the employment agreements were COLLECTIVE, to make sure everyone was treated fairly and paid the same.

 

[Lanolin]

FYI most school teachers in my country are on collective agreements, not individual contracts.

This is why they join together for unions, because greater numbers apparently have more bargaining power. If everyone is on the same contract then they are all in the same boat.

It is better to have a collective agreement that everyone agrees on that the workers, in this case the teachers have negotiated the wording of then be bound by an unworkable contract. If the employer just gives an agreement for someone to sign, thats not actually truly an agreement because that person has really had no say in the making of the contract at all. They can choose to NOT sign, but often that means they wont have a job either.

Many of these contracts are pages and pages long, you really have to look them over and think about what you are signing before you agree to work for any employer. It cant be one sided. You have to look at all the clauses. And many are weighted in favour of the employer and not in the employees interest. Some emplyers even have confidentiality clauses and things that prevent people from reporting wrong doing. What happens is in many case wrongdoing IS reported but the employer chooses to do nothing about it.

 

[Lanolin]

Currently there are no special unions for librarians. Theres associations, but not a labour union.
Hmm.
I was once a registered member of the association, but the costs outweighed the benefits. The problem is we are paid way too low to organise anything effective. And there arent that many of us, the associations are like the old guard elite who have the top jobs. Its kind of weird.

In america the ALA is quite prestigious and well recongnised, but in NZ, LIANZA is trying to be all to everyone and doesnt achieve anything tangible for its members.

The ones who work in schools are hardly recognised for their contributions. They have SLANZA but again, you need to pay to join up.

With an effective labour union you can get direct say in making up the collective agreements and pay for your profession. However, things only get adressed when the Labour party is in power, because National dont care anything about workers for them its every man for himself I have noticed. Ok if you are a sole trader or in small business or even big business as the boss but not if you are an employee.

 

[Lanolin]

The latest news is that the teachers union have negotiated a 21 percent pay rise. Dont quote me.

 

[rtm3039]

Currently there are no special unions for librarians. Theres associations, but not a labour union.
Hmm.
I was once a registered member of the association, but the costs outweighed the benefits. The problem is we are paid way too low to organise anything effective. And there arent that many of us, the associations are like the old guard elite who have the top jobs. Its kind of weird.

In america the ALA is quite prestigious and well recongnised, but in NZ, LIANZA is trying to be all to everyone and doesnt achieve anything tangible for its members.

The ones who work in schools are hardly recognised for their contributions. They have SLANZA but again, you need to pay to join up.

With an effective labour union you can get direct say in making up the collective agreements and pay for your profession. However, things only get adressed when the Labour party is in power, because National dont care anything about workers for them its every man for himself I have noticed. Ok if you are a sole trader or in small business or even big business as the boss but not if you are an employee.

Our schools system has about 5 different unions, based on that job is being held. The people who work for the union are actually public school teachers on special assignments. It is costly, at around $1,000 a year. Since it is not mandatory, not everyone is a member. However, when the union bargains for somethings, even the non-members benefit from it.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Our schools system has about 5 different unions, based on that job is being held. The people who work for the union are actually public school teachers on special assignments. It is costly, at around $1,000 a year. Since it is not mandatory, not everyone is a member. However, when the union bargains for somethings, even the non-members benefit from it.

rtm3039

NZEI (primary)
PSA (public service workers)
PPTA (post primary)

Thats true non members can benefit. I think thats a good thing if you cant afford to join, you still get the benefit. If you are a member you would get some of your union dues reimbursed I remember. You also got time off to go to PUMs, paid union meetings. It would only be one or two reps from workplaces having a say though. But they had to tell everyone wats happening and make their voice known. Its a hard thing to negotiate with an employer about pay, most people are too chicken to bring it up directly. The thing is to make sure you being paid enough and not start a job accepting low pay to begin with, thats below minimum wage. Cos thats unethical and slave labour. Once you sign and start though, they think your happy and often when it comes to pay raises the following year they might just not follow through, and not because you arent doing a good job. Its often some other reason, maybe nepotism. Many Employers I found will find any excuse not the pay their workers what they deserve.
When women found out they were paid less than men for the exact same job I think they were angry.

In the Bible Parable all the workers got paid the same whether they started early or late. It didnt say whether there was difference between men and women, but it seems it was the same for everyone. In that way its fair. The thing is in that situatio you can only do a job you are called to do. If you arent called to do anything, you cant get paid.

 

[rtm3039]

NZEI (primary)
PSA (public service workers)
PPTA (post primary)

Thats true non members can benefit. I think thats a good thing if you cant afford to join, you still get the benefit. If you are a member you would get some of your union dues reimbursed I remember. You also got time off to go to PUMs, paid union meetings. It would only be one or two reps from workplaces having a say though. But they had to tell everyone wats happening and make their voice known. Its a hard thing to negotiate with an employer about pay, most people are too chicken to bring it up directly. The thing is to make sure you being paid enough and not start a job accepting low pay to begin with, thats below minimum wage. Cos thats unethical and slave labour. Once you sign and start though, they think your happy and often when it comes to pay raises the following year they might just not follow through, and not because you arent doing a good job. Its often some other reason, maybe nepotism. Many Employers I found will find any excuse not the pay their workers what they deserve.
When women found out they were paid less than men for the exact same job I think they were angry.

In the Bible Parable all the workers got paid the same whether they started early or late. It didnt say whether there was difference between men and women, but it seems it was the same for everyone. In that way its fair. The thing is in that situatio you can only do a job you are called to do. If you arent called to do anything, you cant get paid.

Our school system has eight unions (CEP, DCSAA, LEGAL, MEP, UTD, AFSCME, DCSMEC, FOP) and I actually have no idea what most of them are. I know that all teachers belong to the UTD. Administrative personnel belong to the AFSCME, and law enforcement to the FOP. I have not decided to join the AFSCME, but that would be my union.

In our history (America), unions have played a significant role and, back in the day, were no better than criminals (in some cases). One of the greatest mysteries or our modern history is the fate of Jimmy Hoffa. He was the president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and, in late July 1975, just vanished. He was declared dead on July 30, 1982, but this was in absentia, as his body was never found. Hoffa was not a “good guy” and was affiliated with the mafia. On the day of his disappearance, he was headed to meet with two mafia leaders for a late lunch and most suspect it was setup and he was killed then.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Our school system has eight unions (CEP, DCSAA, LEGAL, MEP, UTD, AFSCME, DCSMEC, FOP) and I actually have no idea what most of them are. I know that all teachers belong to the UTD. Administrative personnel belong to the AFSCME, and law enforcement to the FOP. I have not decided to join the AFSCME, but that would be my union.

In our history (America), unions have played a significant role and, back in the day, were no better than criminals (in some cases). One of the greatest mysteries or our modern history is the fate of Jimmy Hoffa. He was the president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and, in late July 1975, just vanished. He was declared dead on July 30, 1982, but this was in absentia, as his body was never found. Hoffa was not a “good guy” and was affiliated with the mafia. On the day of his disappearance, he was headed to meet with two mafia leaders for a late lunch and most suspect it was setup and he was killed then.

rtm3039

Eek. In nz history we had riots back in the 60s, the wharf workers werent happy with their pay. They went on strike, and if the wharfies go on strike, then lack of goods coming into the country affects everyone.
I think thats when things get hairy. The last teachers strike was just one day but the children stayed home and everyone had to cope. I was actually feeling sick so welcomed the day off anyway. The teachers marched down the main road with signs and pickets.
In France I hear that striking is a regular thing.
Other organisations sometimes strike...one year it will be nurses, another, railway workers, or coal miners. One thing you never hear is government officials going on strike!