Labour unions

[Lanolin]

When I was teaching Bible in schools, the children did not pay me any money.
They paid me in hugs. GOd provided everything I needed to teach, including petrol money to get to the school. I just let Him teach through me, and He would come up with whatever creative inspiration I needed for the lesson. He called me to do it, I was just avialable, and I didnt choose the school either. He had a class for me.

I did enjoy my teaching stint. The teachers who choose to do it full time yes they worthy of a pay rise IMHO. But i think across the board in schools teachers arent happy with the way the govt treats them. The govt tends to have a low view of teachers and what children need to learn in school, treating them as economic units and consumers rather than people.

 

[Major]

Actually my comment was biblical, look it up its in the Bible.1 timothy 5:8

The rest of what you say is your opinion but some of what you have said is not even biblical. So please dont accuse ME of being short sighted. I read the Bible and have referred to it. I am not making things up.

Yes the worker is worthy of his wages but that implies that the worker does actually do some work. You are missing the point that God does provide for all our needs even pastors so that we are not beholden to anyone. And its clear in the Bible that minsiters are not to love money, or as my KJV says 'filfthy lucre' pastoring is not ever going to be a lucrative deal, and is not dependent on salary.

Likewises teachers do not teach just so they can have a pay packet. They teach cos they actually have something to teach. Some people have this the other way round . Your calling is first, pay is secondary.

Otherwise, in your scheme of things, only rich areas would have churches and schools. Which is not the case.

I mean no disrespect to you sister but the fact is that your response is not correct. All we have to do is read those Scriptures and do a little study to see what the story is.

You used 1 Tim. 5:8 to try and say that Pastors should not be paid.

In comment #29 your exact words were...…...
"He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family."

You have taken a Scripture and used it to support what YOU want it to say. The Scripture you posted has nothing to do with the paying of a Pastor as your comment said. I am not accusing of anything but instead simply posting what you said.

However, when we use "CONTEXT" and read from verse 1, (Please take time to read it) we see that Paul tells Timothy to care for the elderly men in the community as fathers (or as family) and then he instructs Timothy to be sure to care for the widows as well. It is all about the family and not a Pastor at all being paid.

Now this is MY OPINION. We can not and should not use any Scripture just to make a point we want it to make when it does not speak to that point at all. That is confusion and error comes from.

1 Timothy 5:8 says...….
"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

There is NO mention of the church or Pastor or him being paid and that was your point. I just did not want you to go on in your life with the wrong understanding of a Scripture.

He does however say...........
" if there’s a widow in my family — I should be certain I’m caring for her and not expecting the church or anyone else to do that. “But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God.”

That is NOT an opinion but is exactly what the Scriptures actually do say.

God bless you sister and I did not mean to offend you, only to help your understanding.

 

[Major]

Romans 12:6-8 says teaching is actually a spiritual gift.

There are many people God has gifted with teaching, yes they need to be trained etc. but its first of all a gift. You either have this gift to use and share, or you dont. Its not like a job, like say, factory work that anybody with two hands can do. . Its actually a gift.

Absolutely correct.

It is a gift given by the Holy Spirit, enabling one to effectively communicate the truths of the Bible to others. It is most often, but not always, used in the context of the local church. The gift of teaching involves the analysis and proclamation of the Word of God, explaining the meaning, context, and application to the hearer’s life. The gifted teacher is one who has the unique ability to clearly instruct and communicate knowledge, specifically the doctrines of the faith and truths of the Bible.

 

[Major]

When I was teaching Bible in schools, the children did not pay me any money.
They paid me in hugs. GOd provided everything I needed to teach, including petrol money to get to the school. I just let Him teach through me, and He would come up with whatever creative inspiration I needed for the lesson. He called me to do it, I was just avialable, and I didnt choose the school either. He had a class for me.

I did enjoy my teaching stint. The teachers who choose to do it full time yes they worthy of a pay rise IMHO. But i think across the board in schools teachers arent happy with the way the govt treats them. The govt tends to have a low view of teachers and what children need to learn in school, treating them as economic units and consumers rather than people.

What a blessing that must have been. To the best of my knowledge, I do not know of any church that pays anyone to be a teacher of the Scriptures.

 

[rtm3039]

It also has a lot to do with the size of the church itself. A large church would be somewhere around 500 members.

If there was little or no debt then the salary would be what ever those members wanted to pay the pastor to keep him there.

A smaller church of lets say 25 people may not be able to support a full time pastor and then YES he should seek another job. If God has called him the church should grow to a point where they can pay him a full time salary.

I already know that some will challenge what I am about to say. but IMHO God does not call Pastors to other churches.

God calls a man to preach but the chairman of a churches "Search Committee" calls a pastor to his church and that calling is almost always based on salary.

IF a Church loves its pastor and wants him to say with them, then they will pay him what he is worth TO THEM. If they do not do that, he will make I known that he is needing more money to provide for his family and then another church will make it possible for him to come to their church.

Now that is not the case ALL the time. Sometimes there are personality problems that come up over time. Sometimes there is a work ethic involved. Sometimes it becomes known that he really does not know the Scriptures. However, I would say that "most' of the time it is as I just explained.

Major et al,

Yes, I guess size really does matter. Our main campus holds 1,300. I looked at the board this weekend. There are 4 services (1 on Sat and 3 on Sun). It looks like the average was near 600 per service. Should also point our that on a weekend, the pasture puts in at least 8 hours of sermon time and he preps most of the week.

Should also mention that the church also has a pre-K to 6 Christian elementary school. It's just big.

Below is an areal pic of the school and adjacent property. The lead pasture lives across the street from the church. The tennis courts are part of the youth program.

 

[rtm3039]

Romans 12:6-8 says teaching is actually a spiritual gift.

There are many people God has gifted with teaching, yes they need to be trained etc. but its first of all a gift. You either have this gift to use and share, or you dont. Its not like a job, like say, factory work that anybody with two hands can do. . Its actually a gift.

Lanolin,

Many people claim that what they do is their calling. Take for instance sports figures, members of law enforcement, doctors, etc. I understand what you are saying, but if you do something and receive compensation, it is a job. I also understand that the Lord will provide; however, a salary might be hos God provides it.

My pastor holds two Master’s degrees and three Doctoral degrees from Grace Theological Seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Trinity International University. I attended services this Saturday and Sunday and I am pretty sure he wore the same pants both days and I've seen his car. Not sure he is making a mint, but I suspect it's a good living.

As for 1 Timothy 5:8, I believe that was mostly about children taking care of their parents.

"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in Godand continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5: 4-8 (NIV)

rtm3039

 

[Major]

Major et al,

Yes, I guess size really does matter. Our main campus holds 1,300. I looked at the board this weekend. There are 4 services (1 on Sat and 3 on Sun). It looks like the average was near 600 per service. Should also point our that on a weekend, the pasture puts in at least 8 hours of sermon time and he preps most of the week.

Should also mention that the church also has a pre-K to 6 Christian elementary school. It's just big.

Below is an areal pic of the school and adjacent property. The lead pasture lives across the street from the church. The tennis courts are part of the youth program.

View attachment 4186

A church of that size requires someone who j=knows what he is doing as God will hold him responsible.

From what I have gathered from you, your pastor is doing a great job and he is earning all that he receives.

 

[Major]

Lanolin,

Many people claim that what they do is their calling. Take for instance sports figures, members of law enforcement, doctors, etc. I understand what you are saying, but if you do something and receive compensation, it is a job. I also understand that the Lord will provide; however, a salary might be hos God provides it.

My pastor holds two Master’s degrees and three Doctoral degrees from Grace Theological Seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Trinity International University. I attended services this Saturday and Sunday and I am pretty sure he wore the same pants both days and I've seen his car. Not sure he is making a mint, but I suspect it's a good living.

As for 1 Timothy 5:8, I believe that was mostly about children taking care of their parents.

"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in Godand continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5: 4-8 (NIV)

rtm3039

You are correct about 1 Timothy.

Your pastor wins in the battle of degrees!!!

I have 2 and that is why I am missing my left arm as that is about what it cost me.

 

[rtm3039]

You are correct about 1 Timothy.

Your pastor wins in the battle of degrees!!!

I have 2 and that is why I am missing my left arm as that is about what it cost me.

I have three master's, but they were a gift through my post 911 GI Bill.

Pastor Rick is really a fine person. Very intelligent and charismatic. I really enjoy when he takes his turn on the state, which is not as often as before, because he is giving the younger pastors exposure.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

I mean no disrespect to you sister but the fact is that your response is not correct. All we have to do is read those Scriptures and do a little study to see what the story is.

You used 1 Tim. 5:8 to try and say that Pastors should not be paid.

In comment #29 your exact words were...…...
"He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family."

You have taken a Scripture and used it to support what YOU want it to say. The Scripture you posted has nothing to do with the paying of a Pastor as your comment said. I am not accusing of anything but instead simply posting what you said.

However, when we use "CONTEXT" and read from verse 1, (Please take time to read it) we see that Paul tells Timothy to care for the elderly men in the community as fathers (or as family) and then he instructs Timothy to be sure to care for the widows as well. It is all about the family and not a Pastor at all being paid.

Now this is MY OPINION. We can not and should not use any Scripture just to make a point we want it to make when it does not speak to that point at all. That is confusion and error comes from.

1 Timothy 5:8 says...….
"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

There is NO mention of the church or Pastor or him being paid and that was your point. I just did not want you to go on in your life with the wrong understanding of a Scripture.

He does however say...........
" if there’s a widow in my family — I should be certain I’m caring for her and not expecting the church or anyone else to do that. “But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God.”

That is NOT an opinion but is exactly what the Scriptures actually do say.

God bless you sister and I did not mean to offend you, only to help your understanding.

Excuse me please stop reading indo my posts things that I did NOT say. I never said pastors shouldnt be paid, or used scriputee to say so.

I ask you to read my posts carefully and not assume things I did not say. It. Is really annoying when you keep doing this.

 

[Lanolin]

In america, I undesrstand they dont really know what a calling is and they cant tell really the difference between a calling and a paid job.

So, maybe look in the Bible and see what is says about what good works God has ordained us to do. JEsus was a teacher. Was he paid a salary, no he wasnt. He was even teaching when he was 12 years old. It was a gift from God.

GOd will provide whatever we need to do His work. It may include being paid money but not always. Please dont assume that just cos something is paid, that you are meant to do it, or that if its unpaid, that its not worthy.

 

[Lanolin]

I brought up this topic cos of the recent teachers strike.

GOd keeps giving me chapter 23 of Matthew. I look at verse 4 and wondering if thats applying to those in govt who are employeeing thse teachers. . A govt bureaucrat, like a Pharisee often does not lift a finger to do any work. He or she will tell others how to do their jobs etc but doesnt actually do any of the work themselves. i think teachers resent those in govt telling them how to teach.

Much of teaching is in the prep work than the actual teaching time. Its important that teachers have enough support so that they can be free to teach, and not be bogged down always with other things.

I do hear of teachers spending all their time on paperwork and prep and marking but just wonder if teachers acknowkedge that thats all part of teaching too not just the contact time you spend with students in class. I dont know what the answer is if everyone ought to have a raise across the board or just to cover costs of living...but we do need our teachers they are important. Even if there were more support staff like part time teacher aides that would help. Workload for teachers ought to be reasonable otherwise solution is...employee more teachers!

As for pastors similar thing with teachers they need support staff too its unreasonable to expect a pastor to look after a congregation without any help. Which is why in many churches theres more than one and rosters of different duties and there are teams. And contrary to what people might assume its not wrong to pay a pastor but am just saying a pastor with a pastors heart will not do it for the money. He does it because God has called him.

 

[rtm3039]

In america, I undesrstand they dont really know what a calling is and they cant tell really the difference between a calling and a paid job.

So, maybe look in the Bible and see what is says about what good works God has ordained us to do. JEsus was a teacher. Was he paid a salary, no he wasnt. He was even teaching when he was 12 years old. It was a gift from God.

GOd will provide whatever we need to do His work. It may include being paid money but not always. Please dont assume that just cos something is paid, that you are meant to do it, or that if its unpaid, that its not worthy.

Lanolin,

In america, I undesrstand they dont really know what a calling is and they cant tell really the difference between a calling and a paid job.

So, maybe look in the Bible and see what is says about what good works God has ordained us to do. JEsus was a teacher. Was he paid a salary, no he wasnt. He was even teaching when he was 12 years old. It was a gift from God.

GOd will provide whatever we need to do His work. It may include being paid money but not always. Please dont assume that just cos something is paid, that you are meant to do it, or that if its unpaid, that its not worthy.

Good morning Lanolin....

"In america, I undesrstand they dont really know what a calling is and they cant tell really the difference between a calling and a paid job." is probably a comment you might want to walk back a bit.

I will have to do some research on the subject, but I am unsure that it would not be fair to compare anyone to Jesus. Yes, He was (still is) a teacher and no, He was not paid a salary. Unfortunately, instructions like: "When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house." (Luke 10:5-7 (NIV)) are not as possible now as they were then.

You often remark that "God will provide" and I agree. However, God often times provides an opportunity, but we still must make an effort to make that opportunity a reality. Genesis 22: 13 "Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son." Yes, God provided, but Abraham still had to do his part to prepare the ram for sacrifice and I suspect that involved a good wrestling match to move the ram from point A to point B.

It is my opinion that we bring the teaching forward to the present; however, most of the life style decisions are no longer possible. We now have to face the reality that we have to pay taxes (some times federal, state, and local municipality), insurance, mortgages, cell service, student loans, health insurance, retirement plans, etc. You really are no longer in a position to rely on the generosity of others as an exclusive approach for meeting your modern-day obligations. Back then, there were not many gated communities, so we have to adjust our approach a bit.

Have a fantastic day,

rtm3039

 

[Major]

Excuse me please stop reading indo my posts things that I did NOT say. I never said pastors shouldnt be paid, or used scriputee to say so.

I ask you to read my posts carefully and not assume things I did not say. It. Is really annoying when you keep doing this.

Please forgive me sister. I was only responding to your words in your post #29 which were.......

"He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church becase pastors/bishops/deacons are ordained if they can already rule their family well. Says in Timothy.
If a man does not provide for his family, he is worse than an infidel.
The role of a pastor is actually to look after the whole church flock, not just his own family.

I was not aware that those words you used meant something different in New Zeland. Here in the Great USA when it is said that …….
"​

He needs to have his own income to provide for his family not rely on the church " ​

means that the pastor should NOT BE PAID by the church and he should have a job elsewhere to pay his bills.

I have to admit that I do not understand quite how that does not mean …….
"I never said pastors shouldnt be paid, or used scriputee to say so."

I am sorry that I misunderstood your exact words and their meaning as I certainly do not want to say what you did not say.

 

[Major]

I have three master's, but they were a gift through my post 911 GI Bill.

Pastor Rick is really a fine person. Very intelligent and charismatic. I really enjoy when he takes his turn on the state, which is not as often as before, because he is giving the younger pastors exposure.

rtm3039

Amen brother! I was also able to use the GI bill. If it had not been for that I probably would not be sitting here talking theology on this forum.

In fact, back in 1970, the VA paid me $250.00 a month to go to school on top of the school expenses which allowed us to buy a lot of bread and bologna.

 

[Major]

In america, I undesrstand they dont really know what a calling is and they cant tell really the difference between a calling and a paid job.

So, maybe look in the Bible and see what is says about what good works God has ordained us to do. JEsus was a teacher. Was he paid a salary, no he wasnt. He was even teaching when he was 12 years old. It was a gift from God.

GOd will provide whatever we need to do His work. It may include being paid money but not always. Please dont assume that just cos something is paid, that you are meant to do it, or that if its unpaid, that its not worthy.

I am very confident that the people in America know what a calling is and what a paid job is.

John 10:3 ……….."To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."

Romans 11:2...….."for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Ephesians 4:1…..."Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called".
Eugene Peterson wrote a wonderful book titles....."
For the Beauty of the Church: Casting a Vision for the Arts"
(Baker Books, 2010)

In it he says that he has been "trying for fifty years now to be a pastor in a culture that doesn't know the difference between a CALLING and a job."

Most people think that jobs come with job descriptions, so it "is pretty easy to decide whether a job has been completed or not…whether a job is done well or badly."

The difference hear in the Christian ministry is that the Pastors job is NEVER done.
The thought of most people is that the Christian Ministry as "a job that I get paid for, a job that is assigned to me by a denomination, a job that I am expected to do to the satisfaction of my congregation."

However, A "CALLING from God" is not like a job in these respects. The word "calling" comes from the Latin word vocare, "to call."
A Christian Pastor is and should be paid for his efforts and work when that work glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ because the bottom line is that Jesus is his foreman. He works AT the church of God but he works FOR the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Lanolin]

Well good because the Bible does say about hirelings, they actually do not care for the sheep.

See John 10:12-13

JEsus is not a mere foreman, He is the Good Shepherd.

 

[Lanolin]

The thing is, people want to put BUTS in with God. They want excuses like, 'the bottom line' cos they dont trust God. They want to do things their way, not Gods way, and make things good for themselves, not others.

GOd will pay everyone the same no matter when they started work...see the parable of the workers. God is the one who calls people, and he may call people at different times, yet people cannot start work until He calls then, cos Hes prepared the good work for them to do.

Has anyone ever tried a ministry without the holy spirit? Just does not work. Unless the Lord builds a house, one labours in vain.

 

[Lanolin]

Come back to this.

I dont know what to think about teachers striking. I know many are unhappy and teachers pay is low but not as low as support staff! I think that many take a second job.

But then rtm talk about lifestyle things that you need to pay for. But actually reality is you dont need all that if you are trusting in God. Those modern things like insurance, mortgages, retirement plans, student loans etc arent essential. Its just what others expect you to pay for but, what about a radical notion NOT paying for those things.

People dont understand how alternative lifestyles can exist. They think that if you dont have all these modern things you cant function in this world. Well who says you really need a car? Why not share or rent a car or use public transport, or bicycle? Who says you need to work in an office and commute if you can actrually do that from home? What about starting your own home based business...who says you need to be employed in someone elses company?

Why not earn money for expenses some other way, by selling or making something and then teaching for free. Who says you need to stick with one career your whole life?

 

[rtm3039]

Come back to this.

I dont know what to think about teachers striking. I know many are unhappy and teachers pay is low but not as low as support staff! I think that many take a second job.

But then rtm talk about lifestyle things that you need to pay for. But actually reality is you dont need all that if you are trusting in God. Those modern things like insurance, mortgages, retirement plans, student loans etc arent essential. Its just what others expect you to pay for but, what about a radical notion NOT paying for those things.

People dont understand how alternative lifestyles can exist. They think that if you dont have all these modern things you cant function in this world. Well who says you really need a car? Why not share or rent a car or use public transport, or bicycle? Who says you need to work in an office and commute if you can actrually do that from home? What about starting your own home based business...who says you need to be employed in someone elses company?

Why not earn money for expenses some other way, by selling or making something and then teaching for free. Who says you need to stick with one career your whole life?

Good morning Lanolin,

Take a moment and think through your remarks. You really think it is a good idea "not" to pay for these "things?" If you want to be a teacher, yo have to possess a college degree. In most cases, you need a master's degree. Unless you can afford to pay for them out of pocket, you will been student loans. You have to live somewhere and, unless you rent or live in the backseat of your car, this will result in a mortgage. You need insurance, mostly because it is the law.

We do not live in 20 AD. Since then, the world has become much more complicated and larger. It is estimated that the population then was around 170 to 400 million (this is mostly an educated guess. See: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/...ational-programs/historical-est-worldpop.html ). Now we are at over 7.3 billion. We must still live as Jesus commands, but this has to be given a modern context. I agree with you, in that we should all aim for a simpler life, but we cannot all stay home and make candle holders. There are modern conveniences that we need. How popular would this forum be, without a personal computer, electricity, and internet access?

My office is 18 miles away from home. It takes me over an hour to get there, in a car. There is no public transportation what gets me there and, on a bike, it would take me hours which, at 90 degrees and with a humidity factor of 80%, would require me to bathe as soon as I got to the office.

Yes, the Lord will provide, but it has to be in modern day context. What people did not have back then was due to the technology of the time. I am pretty confident that, had there been cars back then, Jesus and his disciples would have availed themselves of a pre-owned Ford product.

rtm3039


rtm3039