Ministers -Leaders or servants?

[Fish Catcher Jim]

They/we are. We are all SIN SICK!

Being saved spiritually does not then make us healthy physically.

IF that was true then why are there so many Christians who are sick and in the hospitial????

IF what you are saying is true, why do Christians die?

IS the answer that...…."They are sick because they do not have enough faith".

This could be a good argument or conversation if it had not been turned around and a clipped portion used to say what it did not.

It's what far to many do with God's Word. Snip a scripture and build a doctrine. Both are in error.

Now then let's place this back in its context shall we.

You said....

Sometimes, sickness is a judgment from God because of disobedience and of course sin.

And I answered with.....

If this were true then every evil person or believers who miss the mark would be sick.

AND WITH

To rightly dive scripture we must use other scripture.

So let's look at a couple for now
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Sickness
It steals your health and life
It kills you
It destroys you
Then sickness has got to be from the devil.

Jesus Came.....Life Abundant.
Notice it is not written Spiritual life only but Life in General.
So life in general would be....
Spiritually
Health Wise
Mind Wise
And yes financial wise after all it is a part of one's life.

So Abundant Health is Given through Jesus Christ so how can sickness be of God?

We live under Grace. God is not punishing people for their shortcomings or mistakes .


Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

So we see here if God made one person sick for sin, disobedience or missing the mark then He would have to make every one who sinned or was disobedient or missed the mark but it's easy to see there are a lot of Healthy sinners out there.

So writing...the following clearly shows you had no understanding or skimmed my reply Because you clipped something I said and made a reply as if I said something different

They/we are. We are all SIN SICK!

Being saved spiritually does not then make us healthy physically.

IF that was true then why are there so many Christians who are sick and in the hospitial????

IF what you are saying is true, why do Christians die?

IS the answer that...…."They are sick because they do not have enough faith".

Blessings Brother.

 

[Major]

Agreed. Never said differently.




There are lots of verses that show us sickness is not God's Will for man.

If you mean by uses sickness to show His manifested Glory then Amen but if you mean decides to let so and so get sick so He can be seen big......that violates scripture.




Now if we rightly divide this scripture in the time it was said......well we find that it is Bofore the Cross and Before Jesus defeated sickness and death and the big one here is....Before The New Covenant or Contract was put into place.




Not sure how this fits in this but God Alotted man 120 years. By this no man would need to be sick to die. At 120 his earth suite just stops working.




It seems you are trying to jumble up some truth here and make a profound statement.

Healing.....to be healed. To be made better.
If one does get sick they can be healed regardless of the issue.

If you draw closer to God when you are sick then it is because of your mind set. You go to Him for comfort and help and if you Believe that God gave you the sickness then you probably tend to perform or draw closer as in to gain His approval or pat on the back and a good boy.

So why does it take getting sick to push you towards God? Why not just be that way at all times?

Know Your Covenant
Understand God's Word
Enjoy your Salvation
Blessings in Christ

No Jim, I am not trying to jumble up anything to make any statement at all. I am saddened that you would think that.

We simply differ on what the Bible says on healing and I am not going to argue back and forth with you and try to point out this or that.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and so am I. Having said that allow me to also say I am saying as clearly as I know how that we all, lost and saved alike get sick. Being a Christian is no guarantee against sickness pain and suffering.
I am and know of thousands of people who are just as close to God as you or anyone else and yet they have many physical problems.


1 Peter 2:19-21 ………….
“For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? But if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called …”.

From this passage we can see two categories of suffering: 1) suffering for our faults (sins), and 2) suffering even when we do well. These are the two main categories of suffering. All the reasons for suffering in our lives fall into these two categories. What then are the reasons for our suffering?

1. To Recruit Us for Salvation.
The Philippian jailer, for fear of His superiors because he thought the prisoners in his charge had escaped, was about to kill himself when Paul said, “we are all here” and then led him to Christ (Acts 16:23-34)

2. To teach us.
Psalms 119:71......
“It is good for me that I was afflicted; that I mighty learn Thy statutes.”
What do we learn through suffering? Suffering teaches us:
A) Obedience.
B) Purity.
C) Patience
D) Compassion

3. To Refine Us so that we will Produce Fruit.
Jesus said in John 15:1-5...………
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth ;not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vind: no more cand ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me Ye can do nothing.”

The fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23): The fruit of the Spirit is:

- Love (II Peter 1:7).
- Joy (Colossians 1:11).
- Peace (Colossians 3:14-15).
- Longsuffering (Colossians 3:12)
- Gentleness (Colossians 3:12-13; James 3:17).
- Goodness (Ephesians 5:9).
- Faith (II Peter 1:5).
- Meekness (Colossians 3:12).
- Temperance (II Peter 1:6).

4. To Rectify Us (Chastening)
1 Peter 4:17...…..
“For the time is come that judgement must begin at the House of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the be of them that obey not the Gospel of God?”

Hebrews 12:8.....
“But if ye be without chastening, where of all are partakers, the are ye bastards, and not sons.”

Jesus said in Rev. 3:19...…
“As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

5. To Revive Us (Correct):
Isaiah 26:16-17...…….
“LORD, in their trouble have they visited Thee, they poured out a prayer when chastening was upon them. Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in Thy sight, O LORD.”

I appreciate your input on this subject and as always may the Lord bless us all.

There is an excellent teaching series at http://doctrine.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/suffering.html if you are so inclined.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No Jim, I am not trying to jumble up anything to make any statement at all. I am saddened that you would think that.

Lol that was one of three options. It is quite shocking that you would choose that one to respond to.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and so am I. Having said that allow me to also say I am saying as clearly as I know how that we all, lost and saved alike get sick. Being a Christian is no guarantee against sickness pain and suffering.
I am and know of thousands of people who are just as close to God as you or anyone else and yet they have many physical problems.

Let's slow down and grasp something.
I have in no way once sir, said Christians do not get sick or anything else along those lines.

So please understand this and let's move past it.

As to the rest of your reply, well you have brought in scriptures and that is a good thing. However we must keep them in context in order to define what is being said.

Example.....why do you portray suffering for Christ as anything to do with sickness?
Is scripture really saying this?

And again with Psalm 119:71
The arrogant are slandering me,
but I will wholeheartedly keep your precepts.
70 Their hearts are as thick as fat,
but I take delight in your Torah.
71 It is for my good that I have been humbled;
it was so that I would learn your laws.
72 The Torah you have spoken means more to me
than a fortune in gold and silver.

Again kind sir you are taking scripture and using it to make a point in which it was not intended to.

How so? By turning suffering for Christ or the Words sake into sickness.
Yes sir, sickness does bring suffering indeed but that is not how this word is being used.

Again Kind Sir, you have brought forth scripture pertaining to the old contract under the old law and thus being Before the Cross and Jesus defeating death and sickness and put forth our New Contract under Jesus.

Perhaps we should start a new thread where
We can continue in peace without any one feeling as we are going off topic.

Have a wonderfully blessed day

 

[Major]

Lol that was one of three options. It is quite shocking that you would choose that one to respond to.




Let's slow down and grasp something.
I have in no way once sir, said Christians do not get sick or anything else along those lines.

So please understand this and let's move past it.

As to the rest of your reply, well you have brought in scriptures and that is a good thing. However we must keep them in context in order to define what is being said.

Example.....why do you portray suffering for Christ as anything to do with sickness?
Is scripture really saying this?

And again with Psalm 119:71
The arrogant are slandering me,
but I will wholeheartedly keep your precepts.
70 Their hearts are as thick as fat,
but I take delight in your Torah.
71 It is for my good that I have been humbled;
it was so that I would learn your laws.
72 The Torah you have spoken means more to me
than a fortune in gold and silver.

Again kind sir you are taking scripture and using it to make a point in which it was not intended to.

How so? By turning suffering for Christ or the Words sake into sickness.
Yes sir, sickness does bring suffering indeed but that is not how this word is being used.

Again Kind Sir, you have brought forth scripture pertaining to the old contract under the old law and thus being Before the Cross and Jesus defeating death and sickness and put forth our New Contract under Jesus.

Perhaps we should start a new thread where
We can continue in peace without any one feeling as we are going off topic.

Have a wonderfully blessed day

Actually I was on topic.

I used Psalms 119:71 to show that David had well recognized that the humility of sickness and affliction, as well as the stones of adversity were in fact God's gifts to him to draw him closer to God. That was my dear friend the original context of my comments that God can and does use affliction to His glory.

That is exactly what the Scripture does say and I did not take that Scripture out of context to make a point. It stands as it is.

Comment #114 I said...…….
"The biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God states that God is almighty over all. He is in complete control of all things—past, present and future—and nothing happens that is out of His jurisdiction. Either He directly causes it —or He passively allows it but either way everything that happens is from God."

IF you would like to start another thread, please do so.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont enjoy the mocking tone people are using to respond to one another about scriptural points in this thread. Sorry.

Major and FCJ if you want to argue or debate with each other then please make another thread to do so. If you want to nut it out then thats totally fine but make another thread, maybe call it sickness and suffering.

Thanks for all whos responded to this topic about ministers, leaders or servants.? Its very interesting and of course people have different views but scripture is always the same.. But please DO NOT try and make my thread to be about something else.

The apostles knew they were given the authority by Jesus to spread the gospel. Jesus had delegated this authority to his disciples. At the end of matthew 28 we read

He said all power in heaven and in earth is given to me. Go ye Therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Does Jesus say anything about those appointed to go about leading or serving? He actually does neither, he talks about TEACHING. So...maybe our focus has been wrong!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I dont enjoy the mocking tone people are using to respond to one another about scriptural points in this thread. Sorry.

So perhaps you should ask yourself why you "feel" it was in that manner. If you ask Major or myself we would certainly tell you different. We had no mocking tones.

Major and FCJ if you want to argue or debate with each other then please make another thread to do so. If you want to nut it out then thats totally fine but make another thread, maybe call it sickness and suffering.

Again why do you take it as arguing?
I think you saw these two post below and it brought it to your attention and you just had to say your say...

The Following was done out of RESPECT for you and your thread!!!!

Perhaps we should start a new thread where
We can continue in peace without any one feeling as we are going off topic.

Have a wonderfully blessed day

And

IF you would like to start another thread, please do so.

So please before you start jumping, pay attention to what has been said already.

Now have a wonderful day
Blessings

 

[Major]

I dont enjoy the mocking tone people are using to respond to one another about scriptural points in this thread. Sorry.

Major and FCJ if you want to argue or debate with each other then please make another thread to do so. If you want to nut it out then thats totally fine but make another thread, maybe call it sickness and suffering.

Thanks for all whos responded to this topic about ministers, leaders or servants.? Its very interesting and of course people have different views but scripture is always the same.. But please DO NOT try and make my thread to be about something else.

The apostles knew they were given the authority by Jesus to spread the gospel. Jesus had delegated this authority to his disciples. At the end of matthew 28 we read

He said all power in heaven and in earth is given to me. Go ye Therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Does Jesus say anything about those appointed to go about leading or serving? He actually does neither, he talks about TEACHING. So...maybe our focus has been wrong!

IF you had used the "REPLY" option to ask me I would have been more that happy to respond to you. You refuse to do so.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Does Jesus say anything about those appointed to go about leading or serving? He actually does neither, he talks about TEACHING. So...maybe our focus has been wrong!

This is difficult to understand. What point are you wishing to make?
Thank you!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

He said all power in heaven and in earth is given to me.

You do realize that Jesus gave that Authority and Power to His Church?

 

[Lanolin]

This is difficult to understand. What point are you wishing to make?
Thank you!

Actually it is quite easy. Its just one sentence. Sorry if you cannot understand english!

Jesus talked about going out and teaching people to observe all He commands. He does not say go out and serve, or go out and lead. He said TEACH. In other translations its make disciples. Disciples are students. See matthew 28:19

So the emphasis isnt actually on leading or serving, its on TEACHING.

For anyone who knows how to teach, and it is a gift and talent thats given, they know its NOT
1) telling someone what to do.
2) bossing them around
3) catering to everyones whims.

 

[Lanolin]

You do realize that Jesus gave that Authority and Power to His Church?

Actually you are confused. Jesus is the head of the church. All power and authority is given to Jesus from His Father. JEsus has never abidicated His role. He delegates, but Jesus has NEVER stepped down from being King.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok just a regroup, which I assure everyone is related to the topic I started.

Lets look at how Jesus is designated King. Was Jesus voted to be King? Did he push his way into the role? Did he acquire it because he had leadership qualities and was promoted? Or because he served someone else for years and years and was give a golden handshake?

Nah-uh. Jesus was Gods only begotten son. Jesus inherited the role. Right from birth! Can anyone else claim to be Christ, the Messiah?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually it is quite easy. Its just one sentence. Sorry if you cannot understand english!

Please leave your fleshly attitude at home.
Thank you

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually you are confused. Jesus is the head of the church. All power and authority is given to Jesus from His Father. JEsus has never abidicated His role. He delegates, but Jesus has NEVER stepped down from being King.

Lanolin please be very careful in what you believe is some one being confused.

Jesus gave His power and Authority into His Church. Its in His Word dear sister.

This does not say Jesus has not the power and authority but it does say He will not do for us what He has given unto us to do.

 

[ModeratorTeam]

MODERATOR COMMENT

This topic has been well discussed and, in the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained.

The thread will now be closed.

If a member feels they have something to add which would advance the discussion, they are encouraged to contact a member of the Moderator/Administrator staff.


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