Ministers -Leaders or servants?

bobinfaith

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#81
Just want to share on something God showed me about leaders and this was a bit of surprise because He does say about leaders too. Its a prophecy in Isaiah 11:6, The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and young lion and fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.
And I pondered this and wondered has this been fufilled or is being fulfilled through Jesus? So often we think of leaders as elders or those over a certain age, but scripture talks about a child leading.
Hi Lanolin;

No, sister, not all was revealed during Christ's first coming. If we cross (reference Romans 8:9-22) it is Christ's second coming (reference Luke 21:25-36) when He will perfectly reign over the earth.

Getting back to the topic we have read so many views regarding Ministers, Leaders or Servants but where do we go from here? We have work to do.

Discerning the wolves in spiritual battle is ongoing. But lets focus on the servants who truly seek God's own heart.

Love our ministers, leaders and servants for Christ. Please respect their calling, training, study and preparation. If you cannot respect the man/woman, then respect God as the One who anointed them.

When they do 9 things right give glory to our Father. When they make a mistake by imperfect effort or blatant wrong doing, admonish them, forgive them, hold them up and encourage them.

We don't know the next minister or leader that God will raise for His church. This very well could be one of us. The last thing we need is a leader with a low self-esteem because his/her brother or sister knocked them when they were down.

God bless you, Lanolin, and your family.
 
#82
I dont think anyone is knocking a leader the point of my OP is that leaders and servants are NOT the same thing.
Ministers are servants that is their defining role one must never say they are 'leaders'. That is where people get confused, and God is not the author of confusion.

The bible says of leaders, that if the blind lead the blind, they will fall into a ditch, so we must be very careful about who we follow. If God calls us 'lead',we must never think that we are taking charge on our own. Because we are all ultimately meant to be following Jesus.

In my experience, and this is not only in churches, when we follow man, its never a good thing. Man can be inconsistent and tyrannical. If someone sets themselves up as God, they are being anti-christ. GOd doesnt like when people steal his glory from Him. There is only ONE Lord. And even Jesus when he was on earth always pointed toward his Father. GOd is not a man that He can lie.

Have you ever been lied to by someone in authority? I tell you it happens a LOT. My generation is perishing because of all the lies people tell us. People that are supposedly leaders. People that say 'trust me' and then go and do the opposite. Parents that may say one thing, but then do another. I have seen many broken families with broken vows and children shuffling back in forth between parents who will not even speak to each other. I taught many children who come from homes like this. I once interviewed at a school that had a principal that got caught viewing pornography. A PRINCIPAL. A principal is meant to be someone in authority who leads right? This is what makes me kinda angry.

I had a frend who trusted the police, they are someone in authority right? She rang them when she was in danger and they would not lift a finger to help her and left it too late.
 

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#83
I dont think anyone is knocking a leader the point of my OP is that leaders and servants are NOT the same thing.
A Good Leader Serves as Well.


Ministers are servants that is their defining role one must never say they are 'leaders'.
Actually Ministers and His Servants are Leaders. They Lead His People in the things of God.


The bible says of leaders, that if the blind lead the blind, they will fall into a ditch,
Actually this is not referring to leaders.
But in reference to those who have issues to deal with and try to correct and lead others .
Get your life together in Christ and then you can see fit to lead, correct and help.

Blessings
 
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#84
I dont quite see it that way FCJ but thats ok we agree to disagree.

I was reading Numbers. Moses was the one with the staff right, but the thing was he couldnt enter the promised land. Why, well all the time Moses was the most humble servant you could think of which is why God chose him to be his mouthpiece, his prophet. But he had to follow what God told him to do.

There were some people who complained and grumbled right, because they had the wrong idea that Moses had made himself a prince above everyone else. Well actually Moses was only following what God had told him and commanded him to tell others. There was the incident with the sons of Korah and Moses said it wasnt in his mind to give the commandments it was from God. He was just the messenger. The sons of Korah didnt quite believe him and they ended up being swallowed up in an earthquake!

But then you read later that Moses got a bit fed up with the children of Israel and angrily struck the rock instead of speaking to it like God had instructed him to do. And for this incident Moses was not able to enter the promised land.

Now caleb and Joshua, they could enter the promised land, and why, not because they made themselves out to be leaders. It says right in the Bible they were servants. But it was because they followed Gods instructions, they had faith in Gods abilities, not their own. They sent a good report not an evil one.

I just find that interesting as people tend to always focus on leaders instead of just being servants. Satan was one of the angels right but fell because he made himself to be above everyone else. All the angels are servants of God and strictly forbid any worship of themselves. Serving, is something thst every christian needs to know how to do and God will exalt and lift you up in due time. There is no reason to think of oneself as a leader before God anoints this or that person...even Jesus, he could have taken the throne and been king of the Jews but he didnt. Saul, certainly got above himself when he was king and got in deep trouble with God when he abused his position, as did almost every King after David and Solomon.
 

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#85
1Thessalonians 5

12 My friends, we ask you to be thoughtful of your leaders who work hard and tell you how to live for the Lord.
13 Show them great respect and love because of their work. Try to get along with each other.

Here it is in your KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Ministers and Pastors and more are Servants and LEADERS.

Blessings
 

bobinfaith

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#86
1Thessalonians 5

12 My friends, we ask you to be thoughtful of your leaders who work hard and tell you how to live for the Lord.
13 Show them great respect and love because of their work. Try to get along with each other.

Here it is in your KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Ministers and Pastors and more are Servants and LEADERS.

Blessings
Hello FC Jim;

This is one of my most serious passages that I read and drink daily or weekly. It is not about how others will receive me but how I will serve others. I have mentor pastors who I stay in touch with weekly who talk with me, encourage, discipline and hold me accountable in most everything I'm doing for ministry. They even know about Christian Forum Site. Why? Because all this is Biblical.

At times I do question my pastors regarding the parameters of a servant or leader and when I try to change on my own terms, it is rarely effective. My identity as a husband and man of God is already fixed and secure in Christ because of the Word and of God's gift to me.

Thank you for pointing out this profound Scripture.

God bless you, Jim and your family.
 
#87
Here is one thought, dont walk in behind me I may not lead Dont walk in front of me I may not follow. But walk beside me and we will do it together.

One thing Jesus said to those who are weary is to take my yoke upon you for my burden is easy and my yoke is light. what is a yoke its a harness for animals that plough side by side. Why does the Bible say dont be unequally yoked? Well its because if you are unequally yoked all you do is end up going round in circles. One tries to lead and the other gets dragged around trying to keep up.

Another thing Jesus said was the pHarisees were blind guides, and the blind led the blind, they fell into a ditch.

KJV just says to know them that labour AMONG you and over you in the Lord.
Jesus does talk about the head in marriage the order is wife, husband, Christ. But thats in marriage. The important thing is Jesus came amongst us. And ministers minister among people, they also oversee people, but its clear they arent to think of themselves as first, as 3 John talks about a man named Diotrephes who wanted 'preminence'...then the tried to ban others in the church because he didnt recieve them as brothers!

We are fellowlabourers and fellowhelpers, brothers and sisters, ministers and servants in the Bible it just never talks about clergymen and laymen. There is no such divide.

Letter to Philemon is also interesting becuase Paul calls all these people who helped him fellowlabourers, fellowhelpers, fellowpisoners and refers to Onemisus as even above a servant, a brother BELOVED. Paul who, you would most imagine as like a leader, never actually thought of himself as one. He regarded himself as a servant and everyone around him as fellows i,e team mates, workmates, colleagues.

When the bible talks about those in charge it refers to them as elders.

2 timothy 3:4-6 does mention those who love themselves creep into house and LEAD captive silly women laden with sins, LED away with divers lusts.

Its quite interesting that today, so much talk about leading is done by people influenced by the world. Dont worry about working together. Just follow someone blindly?
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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#88
Its quite interesting that today, so much talk about leading is done by people influenced by the world. Dont worry about working together. Just follow someone blindly?
But we are not talking about the worldly by what your title says. :)
Blessings.
 
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#89
KJV just says to know them that labour AMONG you and over you in the Lord.
Jesus does talk about the head in marriage the order is wife, husband, Christ.
My Apologies Lanolin but this order you have things is not accurate. It would have been....
God, Husband then wife.
However this is really under the old covenant law.
I am talking about women don't speak in church and are subject unto their husbands etc.

God is Always First and Jesus Christ is head of the Church and our Lord and Savior and Man which is both male and female is subject unto Christ.

This is under the new Covenant.
It is written There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The entire New Covenant is made up of...Love one another as Christ has Loved You.

The Following are examples to live by.
A wife must put her husband first. This is her duty as a follower of the Lord.
19 A husband must love his wife and not abuse her.

One must understand that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not completely New Covenant or New Testament.
NOT everything in RED that Jesus said in these books are To Us New Testament Believers.

One must Grasp that Jesus Operated as a Jewish Prophet subject to the Old covenant or law. Most of what He spoke was from the old covenant and if you listen carefully you will hear little bits of pieces of what was to come of the new covenant.

One must understand that as long as Jesus was Alive that the New Covenant was not given yet. Jesus could not Teach what was not yet in place.

Yes I can show this with the Scriptures but will do so in another thread.

Prov. 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Blessings and Love in Christ
FCJ
 
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#90
Just want to share on something God showed me about leaders and this was a bit of surprise because He does say about leaders too.
Its a prophecy in Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and young lion and fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.

And I pondered this and wondered has this been fufilled or is being fulfilled through Jesus? So often we think of leaders as elders or those over a certain age, but scripture talks about a child leading.
I am thinking of Matthew 18:3 as well when Jesus said: "...I say to you, unless you change and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Those in leadership need to be humble, teachable, like children ...ever learning from the Holy Spirit.
 
Nov 18, 2011
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#91
I dont think anyone is knocking a leader the point of my OP is that leaders and servants are NOT the same thing.
Ministers are servants that is their defining role one must never say they are 'leaders'. That is where people get confused, and God is not the author of confusion.

.
Point taken: no one I knocking the concept of "LEADER".

I see and agree the point being made. And surprisingly, I do not see any confusion. The difference is more on emphasis on function or roles: all function and roles are towards to the common goal.

I would say it is similar to ( I used biblehub, and I chose a translation I see fit to my point :)

Are we not following scriptures if we call our earthly “fathers” father? Our bible “Teachers” teachers?

Of course, we are allowed, am looking for a more appropriate word to “justify” why we are still allowed to call our earthly fathers “fathers” our bible “Teachers” teachers:

Exigency? Simplicity?

Matthew 23:9 New International Version
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


Matthew 23:10 New Living Translation
And don't let anyone call you 'Teacher,' for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.
 
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#92
Have you ever been lied to by someone in authority? I tell you it happens a LOT. My generation is perishing because of all the lies people tell us. People that are supposedly leaders. People that say 'trust me' and then go and do the opposite. Parents that may say one thing, but then do another. I have seen many broken families with broken vows and children shuffling back in forth between parents who will not even speak to each other. I taught many children who come from homes like this. I once interviewed at a school that had a principal that got caught viewing pornography. A PRINCIPAL. A principal is meant to be someone in authority who leads right? This is what makes me kinda angry.

I had a frend who trusted the police, they are someone in authority right? She rang them when she was in danger and they would not lift a finger to help her and left it too late.

I do sympathize with the situation, not undermining that sympathy: I think it need to emphasize the difference of roles.

In relation to my "secular" previous post no.# 78
Congress: they make laws
The court: the do not make Laws: they interpret the Law
Executive or Ministers: they implement the or minister the Law


I do sympathize with the situation, not undermining that sympathy: I think it need to emphasize the difference of roles.
Parents, Police, and Kings such as King Saul.

Parents and Police are all slaves or say, servants to the Law…if they break one: they are accountable.

While Kings,,, they MAKE LAWS as well as EXECUTE (meaning MINISTER) the Law.

While Kings not only "minister' Laws: they also "make laws' :… but once they make Laws: they are all also SUBJECT or SLAVES or SERVANT to it..

An interesting point: Kings has the authority to PARDON or extend CLEMENCY to anyone breaking the Law.
 
#93
I do sympathize with the situation, not undermining that sympathy: I think it need to emphasize the difference of roles.

In relation to my "secular" previous post no.# 78
Congress: they make laws
The court: the do not make Laws: they interpret the Law
Executive or Ministers: they implement the or minister the Law


I do sympathize with the situation, not undermining that sympathy: I think it need to emphasize the difference of roles.
Parents, Police, and Kings such as King Saul.

Parents and Police are all slaves or say, servants to the Law…if they break one: they are accountable.

While Kings,,, they MAKE LAWS as well as EXECUTE (meaning MINISTER) the Law.

While Kings not only "minister' Laws: they also "make laws' :… but once they make Laws: they are all also SUBJECT or SLAVES or SERVANT to it..

An interesting point: Kings has the authority to PARDON or extend CLEMENCY to anyone breaking the Law.
Thats interesting aha I dont know that administer and minister have quite the same meaning, or minister means to execute something, but I do understand that whatever position a person is in, they are not above the law.

For example, Moses, he was not above the law even though he was the one chosen to bring down the ten commandments to the israelites. He still needed to abide by them.
 
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#94
A Good Leader Serves as Well.



Actually Ministers and His Servants are Leaders. They Lead His People in the things of God.



Actually this is not referring to leaders.
But in reference to those who have issues to deal with and try to correct and lead others .
Get your life together in Christ and then you can see fit to lead, correct and help.

Blessings
Agreed. A good leader is also a good follower just as a good teacher is also a good lerner!
 
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#95
1Thessalonians 5

12 My friends, we ask you to be thoughtful of your leaders who work hard and tell you how to live for the Lord.
13 Show them great respect and love because of their work. Try to get along with each other.

Here it is in your KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Ministers and Pastors and more are Servants and LEADERS.

Blessings
Agreed and with more knowledge comes more responsibility.
 
Amens/Likes: Fish Catcher Jim
#97
Found this proverb 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

I do sort of understand that there are leaders in church but in my bible (kjv) it talks about elders and people ruling.
I guess am trying to make sense of it but leadership seems over emphasised in the church, and of course being female traditionally its always been men ruling over women. With the curse in genesis for Eve and her descendants.

Even though we actually have a Queen. I have great respect for the Queen of England, as she, even while ruling, thinks of herself as a servant first. i have never heard or seen her abuse the power or authority she has. Shes not perfect of course, but, compared with a lot of Kings and Queens shes not deliberately done evil! She hasnt said to her subjects 'let them eat cake' like another Queen did.
 
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#98
Found this proverb 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
Another view...
2 A smart servant will gain control over his master’s foolish son. He will be treated like a son and get a share of the inheritance.
 
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#99
Found this proverb 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

I do sort of understand that there are leaders in church but in my bible (kjv) it talks about elders and people ruling.
I guess am trying to make sense of it but leadership seems over emphasised in the church, and of course being female traditionally its always been men ruling over women. With the curse in genesis for Eve and her descendants.

Even though we actually have a Queen. I have great respect for the Queen of England, as she, even while ruling, thinks of herself as a servant first. i have never heard or seen her abuse the power or authority she has. Shes not perfect of course, but, compared with a lot of Kings and Queens shes not deliberately done evil! She hasnt said to her subjects 'let them eat cake' like another Queen did.
Hebrews 13:17 ………….
"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

It must be noted that the verse does not command the congregation to agree with the leadership. It does, however, command the congregation to submit to the leadership.

The office of the "leadership" whether it be Pastor or deacon or elders, has been entrusted with authority from God. So if they adopt a rule for the church over which they are responsible, then the family is to obey this. Of course, the assumption here is that those rules do not violate God’s rules. And as with a parent, wise elders will neither be arbitrary nor partial as they seek to apply God’s Word.

So, rather than the congregation rising up and saying, “We will put our feet where we want to because the elders do not have a specific command in the Bible saying otherwise,” the Spirit-filled congregation will give the benefit of the doubt and do what they have been asked to do. Hopefully, they will assume that their leaders are concerned about the welfare of the Body.

All of this done to limit confusion and to give a sense of authority.
 
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The only difficulty is if the assumption (that the elders and those ordained ministers are hearing from God) turns out to be wrong.

That is when it is dangerous and when false teachers are seducers in the church are given the boot. Jesus would not tolerate Jezebels in one of the seven churches of revelation, and anti-christs. Warning is also given in NT letters, of those whom God is their belly, or those who love money, or those whom have godliness without any power.

I wouldnt say give your elders 'benefit of the doubt' but rather simply trust, have faith that God has chosen them. This is in an ideal world where people follow God, almost by default but, the thing is these days, with such a rebellious and wicked generation in charge you will often find that its our generation that has lost because all our elders have gone astray! Did this not happen in Samuels time too? The sons of priests were the ones defiling the temple, so when they tookover the priesthood, they introduced idolatry into the nation.

Moses had a lot of dissension when he was placed in charge of the Israelites, but its said Moses was the meekest man ever. Moses spoke with God face to face, God didnt merely appear in a dream or vision and someone else had to interpret what He said. When Moses had the staff, it budded and showed he was the one given authority. It was a sign to show everyone God was with him.

Likewise, when Jesus was baptised, God actually spoke 'this is my beloved son, hear ye him' and everyone heard it. Jesus didnt do anything in secret. He was in the open, he was talking with his Father all the time, giving Him glory.
Lots of people in israel at the time could claim to be messiah. How did everyone know that Jesus was the one to listen to and not say, any if the Pharisees? JEsus was at the temple teaching, Pharisees were also teaching at the temple.

Shall we pay attention to the signs that God has anointed someone, how do you know in these days...because lots of people go to bible college/seminary these days you can even buy yourself a theology degree. You could say look at my CV I've pastored x amount of churches with x amount of people. With so many different churches these days, how do you know of any give one, which one is for you, and which eldership to submit to?

In terms of authority How do you know for example, if the President of the United states is telling the truth or not. Or should you obey and submit him simply because hes the president? And assume that whatever he does is right simply because hes president?