Ministers -Leaders or servants?

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Lanolin said:
I dont know if abidicate was putting it down FCJ you will have to talk to him about it. Maybe he meant certain ones?

I obtained free Bibles for the church library, from generous christians who are willing to donate, but cant remember receiving free resources from many that have big names, however, I am willing to pay to buy books when God is leading me to buy any. Not because the author has said so, but because God wants it there.

MAF is a ministry that does use jets because this is a way to reach people in remote areas all over the world. Some people do not live within reach of an international airport, or even reliable transport. So I can understand why christians would use a jet plane. PAul went by ship. He didnt own the boat though, as for Jesus, well you dont know if he made disicples of the fisherman but was also being strategic because they already had a boat. It meant he didnt have to raise funds to buy one.
Ive been aboard mission boats and can imagine that it does cost a lot to maintain one, but the work they do reaches to those in remote islands in the pacific. These christians never say they are leaders though always emphaises they are servants. As well as reaching out to people with the gospel they provide free dental and medical care.
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Exactly and many Comercial airlines don't fly everywhere you need when you need.
Using a Comercial airlines means you are subject to all the junk that goes on and must rely on worldly pilots .

The mistake people make is claiming these ministers fleece the flock for their own personal gain. That's just not true.

Anyway if a secular business bought jets and ships and trucks people would commend them but if a Christian does the same.....oh how bad.
Truth is......we as believers have more right to these things then do the unsaved.

Blessings
 
Now I agree there are ministries and pastors that I don't agree with and I would not use their material to line a birdcage HOWEVER I am smart enough to know that attacking such ministries would not go well with me with the Father.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

I will abide by His Written Word and it will go well with me.

Open up your eyes. Some who have been accused have long disappeared because they were found to be lacking.
However
Most of the ministries that are falsely accused these days are growing and seeing more fruit then before.

Why?
Because God is with them guiding their steps and He is their Defender.

Blessings
FCJ
 
bobinfaith said:
Hi Lanolin;

Unless this thing with the magazine happened some time ago, it is a Christian mag and even they should be accountable, meaning the next time, give them a call and ask to speak with the chief editor. I do everything the Lord has empowered me to protect my church family so when we get a solicitor, web consultants or a magazine, usually it's brought to my attention and if the Holy Spirit prompts me, I will contact the Christian solicitor and ask my questions regarding their doctrine, or inquire about their web blogs or commentaries.

As far as the church you attended with questional leadership, I'm sorry for you. This church you mentioned must have been some time ago? Because what I remember, the church you have been attending with your neighbor friend seems to be going pretty good.

When I attended church as a boy was a place I truly felt loved, accepted and safe though I was young and didn't think about the direction the leaders were taking. As an adult I sought the same experience of love, acceptance and peace but was gaining disciple growth.

I also understood churches are automonous, that leaders of the church aren't always perfect in their decision making, but forgiven. This does not excuse them from holding firm to the Truth and obedience of God's church and His Word.

I don't feel accepting donations from a gambling or liquor trust is the direction I would have taken so I question how this church arrived at that decision, and I'm still trying to figure it all out. But I will say with God we shouldn't limit His provisions and how He provides for His churches. Lets remember to keep this church in prayer regarding their leadership.

I will agree with you to a point that there are leaders in the church who shouldn't be in leadership. This is why the scriptures teach us to pray for our leaders. Pray they will be wise in leading God’s people and step up over the sins and failures of our church families.

The same thing goes for the church leaders and need to set the example for prayer over wise decisions and their conduct. God expects that in His leaders but will do His part to reveal His strength over church weaknesses. You know what I mean.

Meantime, what are guy fawkes?
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Very good comments.

IMO, leadership of a church much be a shared obligation. Churches have pastors, deacons, elders, teachers. They have council's and boards of directors and decisions must come from those entities so that the pastor does not wind up being blamed too much or praised too much.

As for questionable donations. I think it would be wise for everyone to understand that "we all" receive income from sources we know nothing about.

The elderly receive income from which they tithe from that in most cases come from Beer companies, Whiskey companies, tobacco companies, manufacturers of guns and missals and bombs, and fighter planes and so on. We just do not know where our investments are placed in almost all cases.

Personally, I have no problems accepting gifts from questionable sources. It would thrill my heart to know that a Beer company gave a church a million dollars and that money was then used to buy shies for children, and food for the hungry and medicine for the sick.

I consider that the provisions of God.
 
This thread isnt meant to be attacking any ministries I hope you all understand. For those who serve out of a servants heart.
People may be going about preaching Christ the wrong way pehaps but whatever, at least Christ is being preached.

It is just they wont receive the reward of their labour if they happen to exalt themselves above Christ. Perhaps by being leaders they have their rewards now. Maybe. But they wont be eternal rewards.

I was reading about the heavenly man Brother Yun once and he did say even though he was a far reaching evangelist, who travelled the world preaching the gospel and seeing healing and miracles there were times when he had pride, even when being a minister and was out of the will of God, so that is a trap that many can fall into. He had to humble himself again, because he could have done all the work but claimed the glory for himself, however Gods glory is simply reflected to us, we cant steal His glory - it would be unwise to do so.
 
Lanolin said:
This thread isnt meant to be attacking any ministries I hope you all understand. For those who serve out of a servants heart.
People may be going about preaching Christ the wrong way pehaps but whatever, at least Christ is being preached.

It is just they wont receive the reward of their labour if they happen to exalt themselves above Christ. Perhaps by being leaders they have their rewards now. Maybe. But they wont be eternal rewards.

I was reading about the heavenly man Brother Yun once and he did say even though he was a far reaching evangelist, who travelled the world preaching the gospel and seeing healing and miracles there were times when he had pride, even when being a minister and was out of the will of God, so that is a trap that many can fall into. He had to humble himself again, because he could have done all the work but claimed the glory for himself, however Gods glory is simply reflected to us, we cant steal His glory - it would be unwise to do so.
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I understood that.
 
Hmm was reading a christian book a friend lent me which for the most part was good written by a pastor of an evangelical church but it lost me a but when he kept referring to the reader as a leader. I think got a bit annoyed because not everyone is a leader. He could have written 'servant' or 'minister' instead and got the better meaning, because every believer serves God in some capacity or ministers.

Just an observation about much of the christian literature am reading. I dont know if its a recent phenomenon or people just get their words confused.
 
Lanolin said:
Hmm was reading a christian book a friend lent me which for the most part was good written by a pastor of an evangelical church but it lost me a but when he kept referring to the reader as a leader. I think got a bit annoyed because not everyone is a leader. He could have written 'servant' or 'minister' instead and got the better meaning, because every believer serves God in some capacity or ministers.

Just an observation about much of the christian literature am reading. I dont know if its a recent phenomenon or people just get their words confused.
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Pray that the Holy Spirit Would give you more understanding in this area. It might just be something you are not seeing as of yet.
It's worth a try!!!
Blessings
 
Ok well...

I know there is one scripture that says to the israelites they are to be the head not the tail. But that was the israelites.
JEsus did say to them the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Sometimes I think birth order is a big factor influencing peoples place in life than people realise. In the world, countries are always competing for who is first. Countries are even rated 'first world' 'third world'. In sports, everyone wants to be number one. There is no second place. In families, the first-born tends to be the bossy one, or the most responsible, the organiser and the captain of a tight ship! In society there is always first class, then theres the middle classes, and the working class. The working class tend to be the servants or in the service industry serving the richer first class people. Thats just the way it is.
 
In the (OT) maybe but seems to me its not in (NT) because Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first. When the NT referred to who was the head of the church, it was Jesus. And then the husband is the head of the wife. It never refers to a wife being head of the husband.

I suppose for unmarried women it doesnt matter because they dont have husbands. But if a wife has a husband the husband is supposed to lead or be the head. Well thats how I read it.

I guess men dont understand that women have mostly always been ruled by men so cant understand why women dont lead or rule more often. Even in genesis one of the curses actually was that eve would have her husband rule over her. I suppose before the curse they were meant to be equal.
 
Thought it was something to do with israelites firsfruits entering heaven but could be wrong. Sorry am not really clear will look it up...but do recall it was something Jesus said often when he was talking about the Kingdom.
 
Well Matthew chapter 19 Jesus was chatting with a young man who had great possessions. Thus man claimed he followed all the commandments what else must he do to inherit eternal life. He told this man to sell up all he had and follow Him but the man didnt really want to. Then Jesus said how hard it was for a rich man to enter heaven.
Then Peter overheard this convo and asked Jesus about what he was going to have in heaven since hed given up everything. Jesus told Peter he was going to be sitting on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And that everyone whod forsaken everything, houses, family, land, would receive a hundredfold back and inherit eternal life.

Then Jesus said many that are first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Jesus says this elesewhere in the gospels too, but this just one instance he said this phrase.
 
Again in Matthew 20:16 Jesus says this after he talks about labourers in the vineyard being called to work, they agree to be paid a penny even the first the same as those who are called last. The ones that are called first think this is unfair but God is actually being fair and equal to all by paying them the same.

mark 10:31 repeats the same story as matthew chapter 19
But also reading further in mark chapter 10 the disciples are arguing over who gets to set next to Jesus. But Jesus simply dismisses this by saying the gentiles lord it over people, but it shall not be so among you, whoever is great among you shall be your minister, and who is the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For the son Of man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
 
Lanolin said:
Jesus says that at the end of our time on earth on the great judgment day we will all face God and He will reward us according to our works. And we can enter the kingdom when He congratulates us by saying 'well done, good and faithful servants'

Why is it then that some churches only want leaders not servants. I dont quite understand this 'leadership' mentality. There are conferences for 'ministry leaders' 'worship leaders' bible college advertise 'are you called to be a leader'. Some chuches will put in the most bossy, loudest, tallest or richest person to 'lead' the congregation.

JEsus kingdom is an upside down kingdom in which ministers are called to serve others. How can they do this if they are constantly exalting themselves and boasting about 'leadership' going on all these 'leadership conferences' that exclude everyone else, and comparing how big their churches are to others. How can they follow Christ if all they want to do is lead but ignore the fact that God wants everyone to follow His son, who is the head of the church. How can ministers say they 'lead' a church when its the holy spirit who is doing the leading, not man.

HAs God changed and now congratulating His children by saying 'well done, good and faithful leaders'? You led over 300 people. You can now enter into your work - serving 300 people.
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Yes much like in Timothy were it mentions how can you lead when you have not served. If your family life is struggling then your leadership skills will fall as well!
 
Lanolin said:
Thought it was something to do with israelites firsfruits entering heaven but could be wrong. Sorry am not really clear will look it up...but do recall it was something Jesus said often when he was talking about the Kingdom.
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Jesus was telling all of us that there will be a lot of surprises in heaven!!!

God's value system is a lot different than ours. There are a lo of people who are respected today and a lot who are not but what we think and what God thinks are two completely different things.

Those who think a lot of themselves today and expect to be standing in front of the line to enter the Kingdom, may be shocked to find themselves last in God's line.

Just my way of thinking.
 
CoffeeDrinker said:
First, I think we are all servants as we are called to serve God individually first.
I think good leaders should have the heart of a servant and he / she should walk in humility. A good strong leader usually is a humble person.
I personally feel as though we are called to be servants first before God usually puts us in a leadership role.

I am not a leader in my church and I do not serve on staff, I do volunteer. I would think the head pastor would have to have the right people in place who can communicate to him. One of the things I love about my pastor is that he is a humble man. He does not exalt himself above anyone in our church. I never hear the people in my church refer to themselves as leaders. They always refer to themselves as servants to the Lord. I think this is one of the things that attracted me to this church. They are a group of humble people that walk together in their journey. It's been a blessing to me. We all network together and try to be a blessing to everyone, especially visitors and those who may not know the Lord personally.

I have taken leadership courses given by the military through the U.S. Army War College for executives in the workforce. These classes are taught by Generals, etc. A good strong leader has to know his/her people and communication is key to their success. You also have to have the right people in the right positions. I think a Pastor has to be very careful in putting the right people into leadership positions in the church. These people represent the Pastor. I am sure it's hard because if a person in leadership is walking in sin I think that can throw a huge kink in the church. Being a head pastor of a church has to be a great / hard responsibility to walk in.
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Well said, Coffee! And I add that I believe we all have different roles to do in church. My church has such a wonderful sense of community and I think it is because our pastor and staff (as church leaders) are such awesome servants themselves and are not at all condescending and truly are God's servants. This provides a wonderful atmosphere and confidence in many to want to get involved by serving in some capacity from greeters, to bible study facilitators, to those who take care of the little ones in the nursery, to the faithful few who stay after services to pray for people up front, to those launching outreach, to kindergarten and up teachers in the church Sunday and regular schools, ..to...and I could go on and on.
 
sandpiper said:
Well said, Coffee! And I add that I believe we all have different roles to do in church. My church has such a wonderful sense of community and I think it is because our pastor and staff (as church leaders) are such awesome servants themselves and are not at all condescending and truly are God's servants. This provides a wonderful atmosphere and confidence in many to want to get involved by serving in some capacity from greeters, to bible study facilitators, to those who take care of the little ones in the nursery, to the faithful few who stay after services to pray for people up front, to those launching outreach, to kindergarten and up teachers in the church Sunday and regular schools, ..to...and I could go on and on.
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Agreed.

It is just like the old saying ………...to be a good teacher, one must first be a good student.
 
Lanolin said:
Ok well...

I know there is one scripture that says to the israelites they are to be the head not the tail. But that was the israelites.
JEsus did say to them the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Sometimes I think birth order is a big factor influencing peoples place in life than people realise. In the world, countries are always competing for who is first. Countries are even rated 'first world' 'third world'. In sports, everyone wants to be number one. There is no second place. In families, the first-born tends to be the bossy one, or the most responsible, the organiser and the captain of a tight ship! In society there is always first class, then theres the middle classes, and the working class. The working class tend to be the servants or in the service industry serving the richer first class people. Thats just the way it is.
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I am not going to debate your position because you just may be correct. I do not know.
I will say however that all of what you posted has roots in "Finances/Money".

Money, or the lack thereof is what makes a country a 3rd world country.
Everyone wants to win the game played because 1st place pays more than 2nd place.
The working class is that because they do not have the money to own the company.
People fly 1st class instead of couch because they can afford to.
The older child is more responsible because he is "older" and knows the difference between right and wrong.

But that is just me and as I said, you may be right.
 
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