Ministers -Leaders or servants?

[Lanolin]

In terms of the church itself...God led me out of this particular church (also a friend who was going, to one elsewhere maybe it had to do with the same denomination) because of many of the same issues with the leadership.


Do I have any idea of what God had told them to do, well the thing is, yes He tells us to love one another yet this did not seem to be happening and maybe they just werent listening. It isnt loving to Lord it over others, and put down your fellow servants just because you are in a higher office. I had many intances where I was treated wrongly or dismissed because I wasnt part of the paid staff. I dont wish to air my grievances here but it wasnt just me many people in this church had the same thing.

I also found out in the history of this denom they bought in outside consultants who were NOT believers to model their church on. So business practices were brought in to keep the church afloat. Instead of simply praying about whatever issues they were having, they employed people who were business people after profit to advise them! I was really shocked to find this out.

One or two examples. one church would sell fireworks on their church land to raise funds for the church. We have guy fawkes and you can only buy fireworks in the week before to celebrate it, because actually they are quite dangerous. They cant be sold to people underage and often are misused. Even So the church let a stall be set up and part of the proceeds was given to the church. (Thankfully they stopped this practise, but it doesnt take a genius to figure out maybe this is wrong for a church to do)

Another church from the same denom accepted money from a gambling/liquor trust for their building. And they put their corporate logo on their church. So it was paid for by pokie money. Pokie machines are what we call slot machines.

 

[bobinfaith]

What do you mean, about the magazine? Well they were actually asking for feedback. They held a survey so I just told my thoughts cos they asked for it and also what the Bible says.

In terms of the church itself...God led me out of this particular church (also a friend who was going, to one elsewhere maybe it had to do with the same denomination) because of many of the same issues with the leadership. One or two examples. one church would sell fireworks on their church land to raise funds for the church. We have guy fawkes and you can only buy fireworks in the week before to celebrate it, because actually they are quite dangerous. They cant be sold to people underage and often are misused. Another church from the same denom accepted money from a gambling/liquor trust for their building. And they put their corporate logo on their church. So it was paid for by pokie money. Pokie machines are what we call slot machines.

Hi Lanolin;

Unless this thing with the magazine happened some time ago, it is a Christian mag and even they should be accountable, meaning the next time, give them a call and ask to speak with the chief editor. I do everything the Lord has empowered me to protect my church family so when we get a solicitor, web consultants or a magazine, usually it's brought to my attention and if the Holy Spirit prompts me, I will contact the Christian solicitor and ask my questions regarding their doctrine, or inquire about their web blogs or commentaries.

As far as the church you attended with questional leadership, I'm sorry for you. This church you mentioned must have been some time ago? Because what I remember, the church you have been attending with your neighbor friend seems to be going pretty good.

When I attended church as a boy was a place I truly felt loved, accepted and safe though I was young and didn't think about the direction the leaders were taking. As an adult I sought the same experience of love, acceptance and peace but was gaining disciple growth.

I also understood churches are automonous, that leaders of the church aren't always perfect in their decision making, but forgiven. This does not excuse them from holding firm to the Truth and obedience of God's church and His Word.

I don't feel accepting donations from a gambling or liquor trust is the direction I would have taken so I question how this church arrived at that decision, and I'm still trying to figure it all out. But I will say with God we shouldn't limit His provisions and how He provides for His churches. Lets remember to keep this church in prayer regarding their leadership.

I will agree with you to a point that there are leaders in the church who shouldn't be in leadership. This is why the scriptures teach us to pray for our leaders. Pray they will be wise in leading God’s people and step up over the sins and failures of our church families.

The same thing goes for the church leaders and need to set the example for prayer over wise decisions and their conduct. God expects that in His leaders but will do His part to reveal His strength over church weaknesses. You know what I mean.

Meantime, what are guy fawkes?

 

[Lanolin]

The church I'm attending now is fine, I havent been back to this questionable church in a while. once invited a friend to community meal there to help out and she noticed the salt shakers were grimy and rusting she wouldnt touch them but there were a lot of them so it was a big job but when we asked the pastor about it to get new ones he didnt seem to care. He seemed to treat the people that came to the meal, the poor and homeless, etc as less than himself as if they didnt deserve the nice clean cutlery and shakers. He just said oh theyve always been like that.

Eventually they did get clean but only cos I really pushed for them but they didnt get new ones cos they will just get all rusty again. My friend said that if it was her dad who is also a minister/pastor it would have been done straight away.

Another time a church member and i asked to decorate the church with scripture but we werent allowed. You can get these decals that are scripture and look great. The church member and her husband volunteered to paint the church hall all by themselves and they did and its all white now. The co-pastor said he would do it and but he would choose the scripture but this hasnt been done. One time i donated a canvas to the church that had psalm 23 on it to put in the childrens corner, it was put up, but now its taken away I have no idea where it is but instead theres a sign that says only kids allowed to sit there.

They were really funny about the church library too as me and another church member offered to tidy it up but the co pastor kept interferring with our work saying we couldnt do this or that, and it all had to go through him, making it more bureucratic than it needed to be, plus he wasnt a librarian so how can he assess books? He did say we were allowed money to buy new books but then it seems this was changed so we had zero budget, and we werent even allowed to put a seat in for a reading corner.

Anyway. i dont really go there anymore because trying to do anything without their permission is futile. Actually its better to go ahead and do something without them knowing and if they have a problem with it ask forgiveness later. Seems like theres a controlling spirit. Or something.

 

[Lanolin]

Guy fawkes is a british tradtion actually its hard to explain as it happened a long time ago in England. basically Guy Fawkes was a catholic who tried to blow up parliament in a gunpowder plot. ( for some reason, catholics didnt like the protestant rulers in england...I dont know why- maybe they were too controlling?!) He was a terrorist. On November 5 guy fawkes is celebrated by burning effigys of guy fawkes and letting off fireworks because the plot was foiled and parliament wasnt blown up.

Because NZ is a commonwealth country and recognise the Queen of England, we celebrate their traditons as well. I remmeber when I was younger sky rockets and bangers were available for sale but now have been banned because they are dangerous, cause fires, injuries etc. you could light them yourself and some people did stupid things with them. You can go to public displays of fireworks, but many people let them off in their backyards. I dont see anyone burning effigys though thats more of an english thing.

 

[Lanolin]

The church magazine is a denominational magazine that comes out every month and is offered free to church members so I thought I would have a read of it. I think the church pays for it though. I was back at this church cos was invited to a social evening.

I dont know about calling a solicitor? I wouldnt know where to start. I have emailed the editor about my concerns but they just said 'the decision was made not to have letters to the editor anymore' and they didnt explain why.
I actually know someone who was the former editor of the church newspaper when it was a paper and she was shocked at the changes they had made too. I also knew the guy that did book reviews for the paper and he ended up leaving the denom too. I was puzzled why he wrote for the paper but he didnt go to that denom church so would offer to get him a copy when I was attending. But now I kind of understand why he left.

 

[Lanolin]

Do pray for this church, it has its ups and downs but I did find it hard going for a while. Many of the things that happened have been forgiven but I guess I havent forgotten them yet. God knows all about it!! I just dont want to be part of an organization that takes the Lords name in vain, that's all. My other church family are very loving and accepting.

 

[Lanolin]

Was reading a book written by .elisabeth elliot and in one chapter she had the same view that there was too much emphaisis on leadership and not enough on servanthood.

I wish I could quote the entire chapter because she made some great points and explained it much better than I can.

GOd is not going to say in the end well done good and faithful CEO. Hes going to say well done good and faithful servant and will probably be counting all the feet youve washed and nappies you have changed as well.

Am going theough some stuff at work where my boss said to me am being hard on you because you can do more than just weed and tidy up, but then Im thinking what do you mean thats the most important part of the job. I mean sure, leading may have its place but from what ive seen of leadership hasnt really impressed me, generally its someone who doesnt want to do any hard work sitting on his throne yappin on his iphone telling others what to do and not even getting their hands dirty.

The servant isnt above his master in any case..if anyone is to lead, its God Himself.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

GOd is not going to say in the end well done good and faithful CEO. Hes going to say well done good and faithful servant and will probably be counting all the feet youve washed and nappies you have changed as well.

Not every Christian who enters Heaven will hear Well done My Faithful Servant.

Leaders are Servants as well.
Their leadership is a service or serving God in that realm.

Am going theough some stuff at work where my boss said to me am being hard on you because you can do more than just weed and tidy up, but then Im thinking what do you mean thats the most important part of the job. I mean sure, leading may have its place but from what ive seen of leadership hasnt really impressed me, generally its someone who doesnt want to do any hard work sitting on his throne yappin on his iphone telling others what to do and not even getting their hands dirty.

Your view on leadership is quite tarnished.
Sounds like your boss expects more out of you then what you are showing.

Serving does not always mean the lowest position.
Blessings

 

[Lanolin]

Serving actually means serving and the servant is not greater than his master. It does not mean 'lowest position' but Jesus humbled himself on the cross, and man was made only a little lower than the angels.

My boss swears a blue streak and rags on the old folk behind their back. He seems to resent serving them, when they ask for help he pointedly ignores them and then does something else. All of us workers are dismayed by his bad example. I think if they arent rude and being demanding its ok to help people. Its a blessing. We garden for them not the person who has all the money, because its their home, not ours. The person who has all the money and owns the place doesnt even live there.

Think of Jesus, who came and lived amongst US and did not style himself as King or live in a fancy palace and train his disciples to lord it over each other. He didnt issue orders from above while taking all the best for himself. He washed peoples feet!

He never tarnished his crown of glory because He came and lived amongst US. And he never thought being a servant was beneath him.

There are many people who style themselves as leaders who wont be hearing paeons of praise on judgement day. Why because they defrauded their workers and kept back wages and spent it all on themselves. JAmes had some harsh words to say about those who treated the least of these as dirt.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

There are many people who style themselves as leaders who wont be hearing paeons of praise on judgement day. Why because they defrauded their workers and kept back wages and spent it all on themselves. JAmes had some harsh words to say about those who treated the least of these as dirt

There will be many Believers period that won't hear Well done my faithful servant.
Why? Because they never took the time to find out What God wanted them to do.
Just because one gets involved in the things of God does not mean they are doing what they are called to do.

Many people waste their life complaining about everything from the church to the pastors and leaders and sadly enough miss God's Plan for them.
When one is busy complaining they no longer will hear the Father.

It's sad but true.
Blessings my sister and friend

 

[Abdicate]

Jesus says that at the end of our time on earth on the great judgment day we will all face God and He will reward us according to our works. And we can enter the kingdom when He congratulates us by saying 'well done, good and faithful servants'

Why is it then that some churches only want leaders not servants. I dont quite understand this 'leadership' mentality. There are conferences for 'ministry leaders' 'worship leaders' bible college advertise 'are you called to be a leader'. Some chuches will put in the most bossy, loudest, tallest or richest person to 'lead' the congregation.

JEsus kingdom is an upside down kingdom in which ministers are called to serve others. How can they do this if they are constantly exalting themselves and boasting about 'leadership' going on all these 'leadership conferences' that exclude everyone else, and comparing how big their churches are to others. How can they follow Christ if all they want to do is lead but ignore the fact that God wants everyone to follow His son, who is the head of the church. How can ministers say they 'lead' a church when its the holy spirit who is doing the leading, not man.

HAs God changed and now congratulating His children by saying 'well done, good and faithful leaders'? You led over 300 people. You can now enter into your work - serving 300 people.

Most "churches" and "preachers" that a large and successful are just businesses. Why do you think Jesus said,

Mark 16:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

So real followers of Christ would be known. To counter that, a looser's gospel says these verses were added later and not really said by Jesus. So you're correct, they make merchandise of people and the people allow it. "Buy this DVD to see the conference you couldn't attend," or "these books spell out in much greater detail than I can speak to in 22 minutes of air-time," while the other 7 mins is for pitching a - wait for it - a new book! You tell me, watch most of their sales pitches and they're the same as QVC or any other commercial. Jim is correct in that it's not just the preachers, but those that buy (literally) into it and keeps them going. Every time there's an eclipse now there's a new book out explaining how this is the big one.

2 Peter 2:3 King James Version (KJV)

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.​

 

[Lanolin]

I am a bit wary of bible colleges advertising 'do you want to be a leader' as far as I know they dont train people to be servants. If they did, the bible colleges would be totally different institutions.

Fishscatcherjim most christians ignore self-styled eaders and just get on with being servants. Nobodys complaining. So whoever thinks leaders are a big deal is missing out. As for the magazine, its only catering for people who think they are above everyone else, which is clearly not christian.

God has plans for each and everyone of us but nobody will get to heaven by making out like they are number one. That is antichrist mentality, making themselves to be God. Jesus knows this, and modeled for us that we need to submit to God. Even if we are firstborn or whatever. That doesnt mean God gives you the right to lord over others. There is only one Lord.

 

[Lanolin]

Most "churches" and "preachers" that a large and successful are just businesses. Why do you think Jesus said,

Mark 16:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

So real followers of Christ would be known. To counter that, a looser's gospel says these verses were added later and not really said by Jesus. So you're correct, they make merchandise of people and the people allow it. "Buy this DVD to see the conference you couldn't attend," or "these books spell out in much greater detail than I can speak to in 22 minutes of air-time," while the other 7 mins is for pitching a - wait for it - a new book! You tell me, watch most of their sales pitches and they're the same as QVC or any other commercial. Jim is correct in that it's not just the preachers, but those that buy (literally) into it and keeps them going. Every time there's an eclipse now there's a new book out explaining how this is the big one.

2 Peter 2:3 King James Version (KJV)

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.​

There is a lot of junk in the christian bookstores these days, sadly. Best thing to do is read your Bible first before you go read any teachings. I think many people (merchandisers?) may be banking on christians who havent read their bible and so can be easily swayed by their interpretation of the Bible, invariably they will skip passages and prooftext and make it appear that its so, but we must be Bereans and read scripture daily to see if these things are so, not just take every teaching at face value.

Have encountered many false teachers that say oh that wasnt in the Bible, and if it is, its a mistranslation. That is the same argument they have every single time!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

2 Peter 2:3 King James Version (KJV)
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Let's look at other translations concerning your use of merchandise.

CJB... In their greed they will exploit you with fabricated stories.

NOG... In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you.

AMPC...And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments.


Some translations say false prophets will tell you anything to get your money.

To place a ministry that both gives and sells material as false is absurd to say the least.

Most "churches" and "preachers" that a large and successful are just businesses. Why do you think Jesus said,

Mark 16:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I find this to be absurd as well.
God said He desires that ALL MEN be saved.
So the more He pours out His Spirit and people become born again then they will need a "Place" where they can be Shephard.
So when God's Spirit floods an area and multitudes of people get born again, then they should build lots of little churches and spread them out?
I can hear what The Father would say about that.

I know you said most but most says way too many.

Now I know there are "Hucksters" out there but FAR too many Churches and Pastors take the heat "Persecution" for them and it it done by other Christians.

Now Brother Abdicate , I have no aught against you what so ever. I just do not agree with all the attacking of Ministries and how they are run, especially when the good and bad get put into one basket and that's no matter who says it.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[Abdicate]

Let's look at other translations concerning your use of merchandise.

CJB... In their greed they will exploit you with fabricated stories.

NOG... In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you.

AMPC...And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments.


Some translations say false prophets will tell you anything to get your money.

To place a ministry that both gives and sells material as false is absurd to say the least.




I find this to be absurd as well.
God said He desires that ALL MEN be saved.
So the more He pours out His Spirit and people become born again then they will need a "Place" where they can be Shephard.
So when God's Spirit floods an area and multitudes of people get born again, then they should build lots of little churches and spread them out?
I can hear what The Father would say about that.

I know you said most but most says way too many.

Now I know there are "Hucksters" out there but FAR too many Churches and Pastors take the heat "Persecution" for them and it it done by other Christians.

Now Brother Abdicate , I have no aught against you what so ever. I just do not agree with all the attacking of Ministries and how they are run, especially when the good and bad get put into one basket and that's no matter who says it.
Blessings
FCJ

Believe whatever you wish, but the truth is still there in the word of God and the actions throughout them all - authors who want to sell you something, exploit you. There are very few who give for free. I'm sorry you can't recognize God's warning.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Believe whatever you wish, but the truth is still there in the word of God and the actions throughout them all - authors who want to sell you something, exploit you. There are very few who give for free. I'm sorry you can't recognize God's warning.

My eyes are open and alert and yet they are not clouded by personal belief.
Best unto you

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

We have a library that would marvel many and it all was FREE from many of the Big Ministries you all put down.
This includes....Dvd's and Cd's and mp3's and of course Books and magazines.

You all boast on how some preacher has a jet and yet you have no clue to how many they have given sowed into other ministries.
You tear down what you don't understand and believe God is pleased. Wow unto such display of Godless self centerness.

Blessings.

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as really it is about in the believing the Lord to give you the right to action. It is not just talk. But all walking it. From self centered to God Centered! If you become a servant or a leader in God.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont know if abidicate was putting it down FCJ you will have to talk to him about it. Maybe he meant certain ones?

I obtained free Bibles for the church library, from generous christians who are willing to donate, but cant remember receiving free resources from many that have big names, however, I am willing to pay to buy books when God is leading me to buy any. Not because the author has said so, but because God wants it there.

MAF is a ministry that does use jets because this is a way to reach people in remote areas all over the world. Some people do not live within reach of an international airport, or even reliable transport. So I can understand why christians would use a jet plane. PAul went by ship. He didnt own the boat though, as for Jesus, well you dont know if he made disicples of the fisherman but was also being strategic because they already had a boat. It meant he didnt have to raise funds to buy one.
Ive been aboard mission boats and can imagine that it does cost a lot to maintain one, but the work they do reaches to those in remote islands in the pacific. These christians never say they are leaders though always emphaises they are servants. As well as reaching out to people with the gospel they provide free dental and medical care.

 

[Lanolin]

There is a parable in the bible about the young rich ruler (you could call him a leader in todays lingo). What did Jesus tell him to do? He did everything right except for one thing, and Jesus challenged him to do this. Could he do it?

If someone is born into a high position, they need to lower themselves, for Gods kingdom is an upisde down kingdom, it does not operate the way the world operates. The world says give to the rich and you will get richer. BUt Jesus says give to the poor and you will be rich. Jesus never robs Peter to pay Paul.