Ministers -Leaders or servants?

[Major]

Now I agree there are ministries and pastors that I don't agree with and I would not use their material to line a birdcage HOWEVER I am smart enough to know that attacking such ministries would not go well with me with the Father.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

I will abide by His Written Word and it will go well with me.

Open up your eyes. Some who have been accused have long disappeared because they were found to be lacking.
However
Most of the ministries that are falsely accused these days are growing and seeing more fruit then before.

Why?
Because God is with them guiding their steps and He is their Defender.

Blessings
FCJ

Just as a matter of conversation and not argument, may I say that there just may be another side to this "judging" theology.
Just as there is with every situation there is always extremes on both sides of the issue and in fact both can at 1st light appear to be correct.

That being said, the passage of Jesus Matthew 7:1 is one of the most quoted Scriptures and it is almost always done in disregard of it's context.

Matthew 7:1...…..
"Do not judge or you will be judged".

Unfortunitally a lot of people use that verse to keep those who who cricize them from doing so not matter what it was that they were doing.
I agree that when we first read the command of Jesus to "Not judge others" we think that we are not to say anything negative toward someone else.
But "context" says something different.

The Scriptures that we use to "Not judge" others does not mean that we should not use discernment. Right after Jesus says "Do not judge", He then says.....
"Do not give dogs what is sacred, do not throw your pearls to pigs"...…...That is a judgment.

Then in verse 6 He says...………."Watch out for false prophets, by their fruits you will recognize them". That is a judgment.

How can we know how to discern who are "dogs" and "pigs" and "false prophets" unless we have the ability to judge on Bible doctrine and deedes observed????

I believe that Jesus is actually teaching us as believers that we have His permission to observe and tell what is right from wrong.

Then, it seems to me that when we use the Bible's words to not judge others, does not mean that all actions are morally the same or that truth is relative.
It is my understanding that the "truth" of God is eternal, objective and the same as the character of God. Then that being the case, anthing that contradicts the truth is a lie...……...but right there is the proof for when we call anything a "lie" we have just passed a judgment.

You see when the preacher or teacher or person of God calls murder a sin it is to pass judgment. I do not believe any of us would want the Pastors of the Church of God to stop calling sin ………….sin, but when they do, it is judging those who have sin in their hearts. That is in fact exactly what God tells to do....
2 Tinoth 4:1...……..
"Be instant in season and out, I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead by His appearing and His kingdom to "preach the Word", reproving, rebuking, with instruction and patience".

It is my belief and understanding that when Jesus told us to "Not judge others", He did not mean that we can not and should not identify sin for what it is and call out those who are in sin and demand repentance from that sin.

Just something to think about.

 

[Lanolin]

Just as a matter of conversation and not argument, may I say that there just may be another side to this "judging" theology.
Just as there is with every situation there is always extremes on both sides of the issue and in fact both can at 1st light appear to be correct.

That being said, the passage of Jesus Matthew 7:1 is one of the most quoted Scriptures and it is almost always done in disregard of it's context.

Matthew 7:1...…..
"Do not judge or you will be judged".

Unfortunitally a lot of people use that verse to keep those who who cricize them from doing so not matter what it was that they were doing.
I agree that when we first read the command of Jesus to "Not judge others" we think that we are not to say anything negative toward someone else.
But "context" says something different.

The Scriptures that we use to "Not judge" others does not mean that we should not use discernment. Right after Jesus says "Do not judge", He then says.....
"Do not give dogs what is sacred, do not throw your pearls to pigs"...…...That is a judgment.

Then in verse 6 He says...………."Watch out for false prophets, by their fruits you will recognize them". That is a judgment.

How can we know how to discern who are "dogs" and "pigs" and "false prophets" unless we have the ability to judge on Bible doctrine and deedes observed????

I believe that Jesus is actually teaching us as believers that we have His permission to observe and tell what is right from wrong.

Then, it seems to me that when we use the Bible's words to not judge others, does not mean that all actions are morally the same or that truth is relative.
It is my understanding that the "truth" of God is eternal, objective and the same as the character of God. Then that being the case, anthing that contradicts the truth is a lie...……...but right there is the proof for when we call anything a "lie" we have just passed a judgment.

You see when the preacher or teacher or person of God calls murder a sin it is to pass judgment. I do not believe any of us would want the Pastors of the Church of God to stop calling sin ………….sin, but when they do, it is judging those who have sin in their hearts. That is in fact exactly what God tells to do....
2 Tinoth 4:1...……..
"Be instant in season and out, I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead by His appearing and His kingdom to "preach the Word", reproving, rebuking, with instruction and patience".

It is my belief and understanding that when Jesus told us to "Not judge others", He did not mean that we can not and should not identify sin for what it is and call out those who are in sin and demand repentance from that sin.

Just something to think about.

That is my understanding also...for example when someone tells a lie. It is not wrong to judge and say that is a lie. If you know the truth! And where did you get the truth from, its not your truth its THE truth, from the Bible.

 

[Lanolin]

For some people the truth is hard to handle, which is why, some people are not good at dividing scripture correctly. This is what I observe whenever someone brings out the 'judge not' scripture.

Almost in every single occasion when it is used they forget the following verses that say we are to judge righteously.

 

[Lanolin]

I am not going to debate your position because you just may be correct. I do not know.
I will say however that all of what you posted has roots in "Finances/Money".

Money, or the lack thereof is what makes a country a 3rd world country.
Everyone wants to win the game played because 1st place pays more than 2nd place.
The working class is that because they do not have the money to own the company.
People fly 1st class instead of couch because they can afford to.
The older child is more responsible because he is "older" and knows the difference between right and wrong.

But that is just me and as I said, you may be right.

I was reading the newspaper or rather skimming it as I dont really read the whole thing. I came across this ad for a business conference that was called 'Born to lead'. In business, its all about leadership skills etc. you will often find, and this is my observation, that the bosses of most companies are first-born children. That is true in my work, both my team leaders are first borns. My sister is a manager, she is a first born.
In the Bible there is a special thing about first born children. All the first born male Hebrews in egypt were sentenced to die...so when God sent the ten plagues, one of the last was the first born egyptian children were to die.

Not the second borns or the third...its the first borns. The first borns dont always necessarily know right from wrong but they are in that priveliged position. No hand me downs! All the undivided attention from both parents right from birth.

 

[Major]

Exactly and many Comercial airlines don't fly everywhere you need when you need.
Using a Comercial airlines means you are subject to all the junk that goes on and must rely on worldly pilots .

The mistake people make is claiming these ministers fleece the flock for their own personal gain. That's just not true.

Anyway if a secular business bought jets and ships and trucks people would commend them but if a Christian does the same.....oh how bad.
Truth is......we as believers have more right to these things then do the unsaved.

Blessings

I hear you Jim. In fact I agree in some ways with what you are saying. But like every situation in life, we can make things that are questionable acceptable if we work hard enough at it.



Pastor John Wesley once said...……..
It is the duty of every Christian to work as hard as they can, make as much money as they can, speand as little as they can, so as to be able to give away all that they can".

IMHO, the problem is all about "Perception". We have several Christian men/women in the Church of Jesus Christ who are well paid. There is no sin in that.

The buying price of a private jet is only the tip of the ice burg. There is then the salary for a pilot. License fees, airport terminal fees, jet fuel, insurance and on and on.
Just so you will know...…...the cost of a new GulfStream jet is $70 million.
You then have to pay variable private jet maintenance costs of around $1.6 million per year as well as fixed costs of about $880,000 per year.

Money is not bad. But if we just put our religion in our pocket for a minute and consider logically the expenses of a private jet, that difference between private and commercial will buy a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for hungry people and a lot of shoes and dental work for people all around the world..

Then there is another concern. Wealth brings power and power can foster the conditions where your worst impulses go unchecked.
Ask the Bakers.

 

[Lanolin]

Yep going off topic for a bit though...

MAry was criticised for anointing Jesus with special perfume that cost an entire years wages or something like that. Ok the thing is, Mary may have saved up to buy it or it was given to her, we dont know. It could have been sold to feed the poor yes but she had it and she wanted to use it for Gods glory.

I think the thing with the ministers attempt to justify spending on a jet plane isnt the cost of it its that they are asking others to fund it. If they had bought it themselves or already had it, maybe it wouldnt be an issue. But if they are asking others to continue to mainitain it...maybe. Doubt that Mary would have been asking others for money to buy that costly perfume, or saying to Jesus because Im anointing you with this special perfume you owe me the cost of it.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Then there is another concern. Wealth brings power and power can foster the conditions where your worst impulses go unchecked.
Ask the Bakers.

Ask the Bakers?
How about perhaps you posting all the facts.
Such as Jim Baker got a full Parden and the Judge and district attorney were found to have broken laws to set them up. The entire thing was a farce and the judge and da are no more.

How many planes have these ministries given away free? Sowed into other ministries? How many Businesses men bought planes and sowed them?
Kenneth started out as a Comercial pilot and has flown all these years starting from the bottom and working up over all these years.

So much more truth does not get put out there. It's a shame that even in the Christian realm.....gossip sells.

Anyway I am sure we are breaking some forum rule here so I am done.
Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

cost of it its that they are asking others to fund it

Really? Got financial transactions do you?
When making a claim be 100 percent sure you have the true facts and not gossip.

 

[Major]

Ask the Bakers?
How about perhaps you posting all the facts.
Such as Jim Baker got a full Parden and the Judge and district attorney were found to have broken laws to set them up. The entire thing was a farce and the judge and da are no more.

How many planes have these ministries given away free? Sowed into other ministries? How many Businesses men bought planes and sowed them?
Kenneth started out as a Comercial pilot and has flown all these years starting from the bottom and working up over all these years.

So much more truth does not get put out there. It's a shame that even in the Christian realm.....gossip sells.

Anyway I am sure we are breaking some forum rule here so I am done.
Blessings

Jim, I was not attacking those men, I only said the Bakers because he was convicted of fraud and he was convicted to the tune of $159 million. That seems to have led to his fall from grace and that was all I was saying.

I actually do not know of any gossip. What I know I look up and post the sources as fact and not conjecture. You certainly may know more about these people than I do.

I do not know where you got your information from on a "full pardon", maybe post the source but what I looked up said...……..
"In 1989, Bakker was found guilty on all charges and sentenced to 45 years in prison. The term was reduced to eight, and he was released in 1994.".

nydailynews.com/news/national/televangelists-jim-tammy-faye-bakker-fall-grace-article-1.3387060#

2nd Source...……
articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-10-25/news/8910252596_1_jim-bakker-ministry-start-a-prison

As far as being "set up". I am pretty sure that as high a profile case as that was, if there had been any setting up by anyone, it would have been noticed and reported. It seems to me that Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swagert were the ones I heard about doing behind the scenes action back in 1989 to obtain the TV shows Baker had.I really do not know but when I searched it I could not find one single mention of Jim Baker being set up by a local DA. or a "Full Pardon".

I do not mean to argue and will not do so, but I can not find anywhere where a TV evangelist gave away a Jet Plane. Maybe they have, again I do not know but if you know maybe you can post the source so that it does not become gossip..

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I do not know where you got your information from on a "full pardon", maybe post the source but what I looked up said...……..

I watched a show about it and read about it but it seems the net is only full of blood hunters. I will look for it.

I do not mean to argue and will not do so, but I can not find anywhere where a TV evangelist gave away a Jet Plane. Maybe they have, again I do not know but if you know maybe you can post the source so that it does not become gossip..

Kenneth has given away over 25 planes.
They all were serviced and certified first.

Jesse Duplantis first plane he gave to another ministry is still in use today.

The problem is people insist they take people's money to do these things.
If they would check the records open to the public via irs and such they would learn something different.

When the USA senator went after these men, the irs is the ones who put a stop to it.

led to his fall from grace

In context of the scripture.....fall from Grace is going back to the law or old covenant to get right with God over Jesus Christ which is the Grace of God to men.

Blessings and I apologize this was quickly posted. Just very busy and needed off line but wanted to at least acknowledge you.

 

[Lanolin]

Really? Got financial transactions do you?
When making a claim be 100 percent sure you have the true facts and not gossip.

FcJ i am just stating what people might have thought not making a claim. I gave you an example from scripture. Relax. I dont know that situation because I dont know those people.
What I do know is there are some people that fundraise and I have encountered these types that try to coerce you into giving them money to spread the gospel rather than just you praying or spreading the gospel yourself. They send you begging letters that ask for your credit card (which i dont even have) and you dont really know if they actually use the money for what they claim. This is what people like Judas did, claim they were Jesus disciple and then steal the money. Say they are going to give it to the poor but they keep it for themselves. That is wrong I think you would agree.

 

[Lanolin]

Lets keep to topic.
Please dont derail my thread again.

Ministers...leaders or servants.
I say servants. One thing that stirkes me is these days there are so many chiefs and not enough 'indians' and if you think about it...God who is above all and the Big Boss as you might term it, does not want His glory stolen from Him. Because everything we receive is ultimately from Him. His firstborn is actually Israel. But his only begotten son is Jesus. How does this work in the context of servants and leaders.

remember when samuel was called by God to serve Him, and he said that israel wanted a king to rule over them so they could be like other nations. And God basically told him it wasnt a good idea. And he gave his reasons. What were these reasons? And when you read the chronicles and books of Kings just how many kings of Israel actually did NOT do evil?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

FcJ i am just stating what people might have thought not making a claim. I gave you an example from scripture. Relax. I dont know that situation because I dont know those people.

When you start out with saying what I think then you are making a claim.
Example of scripture?
If you do not wish any one to ask you about what you think then maybe you should not post.

Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Lets keep to topic.
Please dont derail my thread a

What are you referring to.

 

[Cturtle]

Thread needs some cooling off. Might get reopened if the staff feels like there is more discussion that can be done

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

Well said, Coffee! And I add that I believe we all have different roles to do in church. My church has such a wonderful sense of community and I think it is because our pastor and staff (as church leaders) are such awesome servants themselves and are not at all condescending and truly are God's servants. This provides a wonderful atmosphere and confidence in many to want to get involved by serving in some capacity from greeters, to bible study facilitators, to those who take care of the little ones in the nursery, to the faithful few who stay after services to pray for people up front, to those launching outreach, to kindergarten and up teachers in the church Sunday and regular schools, ..to...and I could go on and on.

Hi Sandpiper. It's great to hear from you. I hope you are doing well......

 

[ModeratorTeam]

Opening up this thread again CONDITIONALLY as per a member request. WE CAUTION ALL PARTICIPANTS to be kind to one and other and to treat others as you, yourself would wish to be treated. Any angry, sarcastic or demeaning posts will result in this thread being eliminated from the forum permanently and discipline issued.

 

[aha]

Ministers -Leaders or servants?

Servant: YES, to the Law.
Leaders: YES, to their own assistants helping them to do the job.

Haven’t much read previous post, just browsed.
And coming from another thread on "root word" "Ministers" root word is: "servant" "attendant".

"The term minister comes from Middle English, deriving from the Old French word ministre, originally minister in Latin, meaning "servant, attendant", which itself was derived from the word 'minus' meaning "less"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_(government)


SERVANT: yes , that is the root word: and critical part is servant to whom/what?

They are servant to the LAW, to legal FORMs.

There are 3 branches of Government mainly:
---> the LEGISLATIVE (Congress): they makes Laws.
--->The JUDICIAL (Supreme Court): they do not makes Laws, they interpret the laws made by Congress: that is: if there is confusion: they seek the intention of the Law vs. the letters of the Law.
--->EXECUTIVE: the President, Prime Ministers, ie: Ministers: they implement the LAWS, they are servant of the LAW.

Thus, Ministers have people reporting to them, attending to them to do their job to implement the Law:
They cannot do it alone… they need people to SERVE them: that is: assistants or SERVANT to them….

BUT: the Ministers and their assistants/servants are all SERVANTS to the LAW.

ie: to summarize: Ministers are SERVANT to the LAW, and they can have servants or assistant to help them fulfill their jobs thus effectively they are LEADERS of their own servant or assistant…

But all of them in the EXECUTIVE department or MINISTER/ MINISTRY department are SERVANTS to the LAW.


Just a thought, an input from secular point of view

 

[Lanolin]

Ministers -Leaders or servants?

Servant: YES, to the Law.
Leaders: YES, to their own assistants helping them to do the job.

Haven’t much read previous post, just browsed.
And coming from another thread on "root word" "Ministers" root word is: "servant" "attendant".

"The term minister comes from Middle English, deriving from the Old French word ministre, originally minister in Latin, meaning "servant, attendant", which itself was derived from the word 'minus' meaning "less"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_(government)


SERVANT: yes , that is the root word: and critical part is servant to whom/what?

They are servant to the LAW, to legal FORMs.

There are 3 branches of Government mainly:
---> the LEGISLATIVE (Congress): they makes Laws.
--->The JUDICIAL (Supreme Court): they do not makes Laws, they interpret the laws made by Congress: that is: if there is confusion: they seek the intention of the Law vs. the letters of the Law.
--->EXECUTIVE: the President, Prime Ministers, ie: Ministers: they implement the LAWS, they are servant of the LAW.

Thus, Ministers have people reporting to them, attending to them to do their job to implement the Law:
They cannot do it alone… they need people to SERVE them: that is: assistants or SERVANT to them….

BUT: the Ministers and their assistants/servants are all SERVANTS to the LAW.

ie: to summarize: Ministers are SERVANT to the LAW, and they can have servants or assistant to help them fulfill their jobs thus effectively they are LEADERS of their own servant or assistant…

But all of them in the EXECUTIVE department or MINISTER/ MINISTRY department are SERVANTS to the LAW.


Just a thought, an input from secular point of view

Thanks for your inout aha I hadnt thought to look up what the word 'minister' meant but yea it DOES actually mean 'servant'. In nz we have ministers in government and the 'leader' of our country is called the Prime Minister. Which means whoever is in that position serves the entire country. The various departments of goverment are called 'ministries' and they are all designed to serve the needs of the people of our nation. Eg Ministry of fisheries, ministry of justice, ministry of conservation, ministry of Health, to name a few.
When I worked in public libraries my role was defined as a 'public servant'. PUblic servants are all those who work and are paid by the government (local or national) as we serve others, the roles can be diverse such as teacher, social worker, caretaker, wharfie, postie, councillor, park ranger, etc...the roles are to serve the public (and not for profit, or private enterprise). PUblic servants do not think of themselves as 'leaders' it would be a foreign concept to think we lead anything. Because we dont work in competition with each other, or we are not meant to. We serve the greater good.

In terms of organisation yes theres managers and overseers, but that is quite a different role from the secular business concept of a leader who is competitive and pushes to be first in everything.

 

[Lanolin]

Just want to share on something God showed me about leaders and this was a bit of surprise because He does say about leaders too.
Its a prophecy in Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and young lion and fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.

And I pondered this and wondered has this been fufilled or is being fulfilled through Jesus? So often we think of leaders as elders or those over a certain age, but scripture talks about a child leading.