Ministers -Leaders or servants?

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The only difficulty is if the assumption (that the elders and those ordained ministers are hearing from God) turns out to be wrong.

That is when it is dangerous and when false teachers are seducers in the church are given the boot. Jesus would not tolerate Jezebels in one of the seven churches of revelation, and anti-christs. Warning is also given in NT letters, of those whom God is their belly, or those who love money, or those whom have godliness without any power.

I wouldnt say give your elders 'benefit of the doubt' but rather simply trust, have faith that God has chosen them. This is in an ideal world where people follow God, almost by default but, the thing is these days, with such a rebellious and wicked generation in charge you will often find that its our generation that has lost because all our elders have gone astray! Did this not happen in Samuels time too? The sons of priests were the ones defiling the temple, so when they tookover the priesthood, they introduced idolatry into the nation.

Moses had a lot of dissension when he was placed in charge of the Israelites, but its said Moses was the meekest man ever. Moses spoke with God face to face, God didnt merely appear in a dream or vision and someone else had to interpret what He said. When Moses had the staff, it budded and showed he was the one given authority. It was a sign to show everyone God was with him.

Likewise, when Jesus was baptised, God actually spoke 'this is my beloved son, hear ye him' and everyone heard it. Jesus didnt do anything in secret. He was in the open, he was talking with his Father all the time, giving Him glory.
Lots of people in israel at the time could claim to be messiah. How did everyone know that Jesus was the one to listen to and not say, any if the Pharisees? JEsus was at the temple teaching, Pharisees were also teaching at the temple.

Shall we pay attention to the signs that God has anointed someone, how do you know in these days...because lots of people go to bible college/seminary these days you can even buy yourself a theology degree. You could say look at my CV I've pastored x amount of churches with x amount of people. With so many different churches these days, how do you know of any give one, which one is for you, and which eldership to submit to?

In terms of authority How do you know for example, if the President of the United states is telling the truth or not. Or should you obey and submit him simply because hes the president? And assume that whatever he does is right simply because hes president?
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Your post major sorry what you said about assumptions. I agree with what you say but just wanted to question what we do if our assumptions are incorrect, as assumptions can turn out to be wrong. For example, a child will blindly trust their parent or caregiver even if they are not the best parent maybe they are the only one there. The parent could be absolutely abusive and beat them up 'for their own good' or discipline till they hurt, or on other hand may be wildly indulgent.

How can this child, that is subject to someone who is supposedly older and wiser, know right from wrong if this is how they are raised they may not know any better or alternative. This relates to servants and leaders or masters and slaves, as well. How would you know if your boss/master/leader/parent was doing what is in your interest or just their self-interest.
 
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Your post major sorry what you said about assumptions. I agree with what you say but just wanted to question what we do if our assumptions are incorrect, as assumptions can turn out to be wrong. For example, a child will blindly trust their parent or caregiver even if they are not the best parent maybe they are the only one there. The parent could be absolutely abusive and beat them up 'for their own good' or discipline till they hurt, or on other hand may be wildly indulgent.

How can this child, that is subject to someone who is supposedly older and wiser, know right from wrong if this is how they are raised they may not know any better or alternative. This relates to servants and leaders or masters and slaves, as well. How would you know if your boss/master/leader/parent was doing what is in your interest or just their self-interest.
My dear sister, we can not and should not live our lives by the "What if" factor.

What IF my aunt had a mustache, would she then be my uncle?

IF we question every thing with what would have happened IF this or that took place simply will not be productive for anyone either spiritually or mentally.

Determinism says that what is, ...…... is. With all due respect to you, when we question things and events that HAVE happened with scenarios of what would have happened is actually a failure to accept reality. Now I say that to say this...…….."everyting that happens does so by the will of God".

If we question those events we are then actually questioning the soventry of God.

Romans 8:28-29...…….
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Jeremiah 29:11...……..
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

You see, God’s sovereignty is defined as His complete and total independent control over every creature, event, and circumstance at every moment in history. Subject to none, influenced by none, absolutely independent, God does what He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases. God is in complete control of every molecule in the universe at every moment, and everything that happens is either caused or allowed by Him for His own perfect purposes.

I would encourage you to understand that “The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, ‘Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand’” (Isaiah 14:24). Nothing is random or comes by chance, especially not in the lives of believers. He “purposed” it. That means to deliberately resolve to do something. God has resolved to do what He will do, and nothing and no one stands in His way. “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:10). This is our powerful, purposeful God who is in control of everything. That should bring us great comfort and help to alleviate our fears.
https://www.gotquestions.org/God-is-in-control.html
 
Thats true Major 'what if' really is doubting its not faith.
However our faith is founded on solid rock not shifting sand, so, I guess even Jesus will make sure and forgives those who doubt a little, like he did with Thomas he showed him his hands and feet and said well touch me see if Im real. But he does say blessed are those who have NOT seen yet believe. He wants people to take him at his Word, because His word is true!

God is not a man that he can lie.

We just need to trust Him, and the one he appoints, chooses and anoints. That specifically his son.Jesus...and then the ones Jesus chooses.

I was talking about false teachers and prophets though, the Bible does warn us about those.

The only thing Major is that reality is that people without God, unbelievers do trust someone whos not God ..i.e Satan because they are decieved and that only ends in disaster. If one is to reach out to someone who is unbelieving, because you must admit yourself at one point was an unbeliever until you repented, to reach out to them to know Jesus can save them.
 

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I would encourage you to understand that “The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, ‘Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand’” (Isaiah 14:24). Nothing is random or comes b
Hi Major,
Key in this verse is Purposed.
This means what God wants done and not everything that is done.
There is a lot of evil in this world which serves no purpose of the Father.
If a believer gets themselves over in a place they don't belong and evil strikes them. It was not Purposed by God.

The same God Also said......
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So if a believer sows with his flesh and thus reaps of the flesh......God did not purpose this.....the believer made the choice not God.

Also if a believer gives up or refuses to stand and faints and God does not raise him up, it's not God's Purpose or God's doing that this believer was not raised up. The believer made that choice.

Blessings
 
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FCJ you would hope that a believer would not be in that place of walking in the flesh. Becuase if we are walking in the flesh, and not the spirit, its likely we do not truly believe. We cant be doubleminded about things or we wont receive anything from God.

Yes, God has purposed things for our good because He loves us who are called according to His purpose. We cant claim that if we are actually NOT called. I guess its that thing where some people want to say they became a christian just because they wanted to instead of understanding that it was God calling them first.

For example, in a similar vein Samuel didnt become a prophet out of his own volition, its not like he applied for the job and beat out all the others based on his qualifications to be a prophet. . GOd actually called him to be one. And samuel listened.

Another example, in the parable where peoole are called to work in the vineyard. You cant just work in the vineyard you have to be called to do it. That was why people were sitting around idle until they were called. Everyone got paid the same amount but some were called first and some were called last.
 

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Yes, God has purposed things for our good because He loves us who are called according to His purpose.
This is very true. God has Purposed things in our lives but not all things that happen in our lives are directed by the hand of God.

If all things that happen in your life was by the hand of God - then you would be in sin for complaining and trying to change them.
 
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Hi Major,
Key in this verse is Purposed.
This means what God wants done and not everything that is done.
There is a lot of evil in this world which serves no purpose of the Father.
If a believer gets themselves over in a place they don't belong and evil strikes them. It was not Purposed by God.

The same God Also said......
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So if a believer sows with his flesh and thus reaps of the flesh......God did not purpose this.....the believer made the choice not God.

Also if a believer gives up or refuses to stand and faints and God does not raise him up, it's not God's Purpose or God's doing that this believer was not raised up. The believer made that choice.

Blessings
Agreed and that is what I said when I posted:
"God is in complete control of every molecule in the universe at every moment, and everything that happens is either caused or allowed by Him for His own perfect purposes. "

The doctrine of "Freedom of Choice" is paramount to proper Christian understanding.

Because In the end, where the rubber meets the road, we all have to grasp that we always have the choice to decide what to do.

Therefore, if there were no such thing as "Freedom to Choose" to be great person or to be a vicious coward, humanity would be neither. He would only be a shadow of himself.

So then to go a little bit further, being a grown-up human being means to be responsible for your own actions. Therefore, to be a Christian we must realize that WE are sinners and are going to have tp ay for our sin OR we can apply the victory of Jesus Christ for us by Choosing His work over ours.

When we assume the responsibilities for our actions, instead of hiding from them or expecting someone else to solve them, that is when we can stand up for ourselves and fulfill the Purpose's of God for us in our lives.
 
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Who are called according to His Purpose?
Who does He Love?

God loves the sinner and God loves His People. We are all called according to His Purpose.
His purpose is that no man perish but have ever lasting life with Him.
2 Tim 1:9
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

The phrase "holy calling" literally means holy invitation. God has called (literally called out to) us a holy invitation.

Many translations supply the words "with" or "to" in "called us with an holy calling" whereas they are supplied by the translators for clarification but they are not found in the Greek text at all. God has called out to us a holy invitation.

What is that invitation to? ………. It is to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus.

When? .............................................…...Before the world began.

The word purpose as defined by the Greek scholars is:...……
"The setting forth of a thing".

Vine, Thayer, and Strong all agree essentially with one another on this word as being defined this way:...….
"A setting forth of a thing."

Uniquely enough, the word for purpose in the Greek is prothesin and it is generally translated in conjunction with the "shewbread". This is because the bread was laid out before the tabernacle at every Sabbath, thus it is bread laid out or bread shown. The purpose of God is laid out or shown in Christ Jesus, the "Bread of Heaven" (John 6:35,41) or the Shewbread.
Jesus is the purpose of God. God's own purpose is revealed in Jesus Christ. This statement is supported by the Scriptures:

Ephesians 3:11.……
" According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Key words to note here in this verse are "purpose', "purposed" and "in Christ". The word purpose is again the Greek word prothesin (the setting forth of a thing) and the word purposed is epoieesen which means: "carried into effect" (Vincent word studies).

The words "eternal purpose" literally translated read as "the setting forth of the ages", because the word eternal is the Greek plural word for "aion."
So the ages, that is, the times that God works our His plans and purposes are set forth which He purposed are carried into effect in Christ.
 
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This is very true. God has Purposed things in our lives but not all things that happen in our lives are directed by the hand of God.

If all things that happen in your life was by the hand of God - then you would be in sin for complaining and trying to change them.
Would you accept the premise that rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we should make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it????

For an example of God’s will, we know that it is not God's will for man to steal but the fact is that people do steal. God says that that we should work to earn what we need . Very simple. We just do what He says.

But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience.

Is that then a travesty of logic!
 

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Agreed and that is what I said when I posted:
"God is in complete control of every molecule in the universe at every moment, and everything that happens is either caused or allowed by Him for His own perfect purposes. "
The problem is when people think that God sits at a desk and things come to Him and He either checks don't allow or allow.

Truth is that He has no choice but to allow it.
He is true to His Word.
He gave us free will to choose and He told us if we sow to the flesh we will reap the Consequences.

So if a believer decides to get drunk and drive 100 miles an hour and kills people. God had nothing to do with it nor is it for His purpose.

satan is constantly trying to get believers caught up in their emotions so he can have a free chance to get at them.

When a believer opens the door it is not of God's doing nor is it of His purpose.

When a believer gets sick, God's hand is not in it. This sickness serves no purpose other then to destroy .

Blessings
 
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Would you accept the premise that rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we should make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it????
Of course. That's Spiritual Growth. I mean I would not want to be born again for 30 years and still have my spiritual pampers on. Lol

But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience.
Add to this......if everything was God's Will then evil would be of Him and we know that's not true.

If everything was God's Will and Working for our good by some strange purpose of God's then we could not punish the serial rapest that rapes, tortures and kills Christian woman.

Many people want to think God is behind everything that happens and He is not.
Blessings
 
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The problem is when people think that God sits at a desk and things come to Him and He either checks don't allow or allow.

Truth is that He has no choice but to allow it.
He is true to His Word.
He gave us free will to choose and He told us if we sow to the flesh we will reap the Consequences.

So if a believer decides to get drunk and drive 100 miles an hour and kills people. God had nothing to do with it nor is it for His purpose.

satan is constantly trying to get believers caught up in their emotions so he can have a free chance to get at them.

When a believer opens the door it is not of God's doing nor is it of His purpose.

When a believer gets sick, God's hand is not in it. This sickness serves no purpose other then to destroy .

Blessings
I hear you but have to disagree with the thing abut getting sick. That is more a denominational teaching than Biblical IMO and is not involved in "Free will".

Sometimes, sickness is a judgment from God because of disobedience and of course sin. There is the doctrine of "Free Will" and also the doctrine of the "Sovereignty of God".

The biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God states that God is almighty over all. He is in complete control of all things—past, present and future—and nothing happens that is out of His jurisdiction. Either He directly causes it —or He passively allows it but either way everything that happens is from God.

But allowing something to happen and causing something to happen are two different things. For example, God caused the creation of the perfect, sinless Adam and Eve; then He allowed them to rebel against Him. He did not cause them to sin, and He certainly could have stopped them, but He chose not to for His own purposes and to bring about His perfect plan. That rebellion brought about all manner of evil, evil that was not caused by God but which was allowed by Him to exist.

Sickness is one manifestation of the two broad types of evil. One is moral and the other is natural.

Moral evil is man's inhumanity to man. Natural evil is composed of things like natural disasters and physical sickness. Evil itself is a perversion or corruption of something that was originally good, but is now missing something. In the case of sickness, illness is a state where good health is missing.

The Greek word for evil, which is "ponerous", and actually implies a malignancy, something that is corrupting a good and healthy state of being.

Sickness happens to ALL believers at sometime or another.

When illness does come, it may not be the result of God’s direct intervention in our lives, but is rather the result of the fallen world, fallen bodies, and poor health and lifestyle choices. And although there are scriptural indicators that God wants us to be in good health, all sickness and disease are allowed by Him for His purposes, whether we understand them or not.
https://www.gotquestions.org/sickness-will-God.html
 

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Sometimes, sickness is a judgment from God because of disobedience and of course sin. There is the doctrine of "Free Will" and also the doctrine of the "Sovereignty of God"
If this were true then every evil person or believers who miss the mark would be sick.
 
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Sometimes, sickness is a judgment from God because of disobedience and of course sin. There is the doctrine of "Free Will" and also the doctrine of the "Sovereignty of God".
To rightly dive scripture we must use other scripture.

So let's look at a couple for now
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Sickness
It steals your health and life
It kills you
It destroys you
Then sickness has got to be from the devil.

Jesus Came.....Life Abundant.
Notice it is not written Spiritual life only but Life in General.
So life in general would be....
Spiritually
Health Wise
Mind Wise
And yes financial wise after all it is a part of one's life.

So Abundant Health is Given through Jesus Christ so how can sickness be of God?

We live under Grace. God is not punishing people for their shortcomings or mistakes .


Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

So we see here if God made one person sick for sin, disobedience or missing the mark then He would have to make every one who sinned or was disobedient or missed the mark but it's easy to see there are a lit of Healthy sinners out there.
 
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To rightly dive scripture we must use other scripture.

So let's look at a couple for now
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Sickness
It steals your health and life
It kills you
It destroys you
Then sickness has got to be from the devil.

Jesus Came.....Life Abundant.
Notice it is not written Spiritual life only but Life in General.
So life in general would be....
Spiritually
Health Wise
Mind Wise
And yes financial wise after all it is a part of one's life.

So Abundant Health is Given through Jesus Christ so how can sickness be of God?

We live under Grace. God is not punishing people for their shortcomings or mistakes .


Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

So we see here if God made one person sick for sin, disobedience or missing the mark then He would have to make every one who sinned or was disobedient or missed the mark but it's easy to see there are a lit of Healthy sinners out there.
Whether sickness comes directly from God or by Satan, my point is that sickness does in fact come upon all believers.

A question must then be.........why are there no other verses that say Christians should never experience sickness?
Rather, it seems that God can use sickness. Granted, sometimes it is for chastening His wayward children, but sometimes He uses it to show His sustaining power and even His healing power.

John 9:1–3 (ESV)
"As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God …".

I also wondered how God would take many of us home to heaven if we never became ill. Would we have to experience violence or accidents to get from this life to the next? Depending on how illness is defined, even dying in one’s sleep involves some sort of bodily failure.

As I think about dying and the next life, I know in heaven I will experience perfection. I will not sin ever again, nor will I ever be sick. This is God’s promise. With that, I have come to this conclusion; yes, there is healing in the atonement — I am healed from the penalty of sin spiritually, because the great work of Christ on the cross secured that for me.

He also gave me the power to overcome sin in this life. I will not succeed totally, but one day I will be sinless as He is. That is the power of His sacrifice for me.

However, as for sickness, I believe there is a similar thing happening. One day I will be totally free of all ailments, including the aches and pains of aging, but in this life that will not happen. I can take good care of myself and ask for healing when I am sick, but these bodies are not made to last forever. For that, I need a new body and I will not get it until I die, perhaps from sickness.

Then the other question must be...…….why are those who claim there is healing in the atonement are often sick. I also wonder why, if is true that complete healing is for this life, why not claim it for sin also? Sickness has the potential to draw me closer to God, but sin always pushes me away. For that reason, being free from sin seems even more desirable than being free from coughs and colds or worse.
 
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If this were true then every evil person or believers who miss the mark would be sick.
They/we are. We are all SIN SICK!

Being saved spiritually does not then make us healthy physically.

IF that was true then why are there so many Christians who are sick and in the hospitial????

IF what you are saying is true, why do Christians die?

IS the answer that...…."They are sick because they do not have enough faith".
 

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my point is that sickness does in fact come upon all believers.
Agreed. Never said differently.


A question must then be.........why are there no other verses that say Christians should never experience sickness?
Rather, it seems that God can use sickness. Granted, sometimes it is for chastening His wayward children, but sometimes He uses it to show His sustaining power and even His healing power.
There are lots of verses that show us sickness is not God's Will for man.

If you mean by uses sickness to show His manifested Glory then Amen but if you mean decides to let so and so get sick so He can be seen big......that violates scripture.


John 9:1–3 (ESV)
"As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God …".
Now if we rightly divide this scripture in the time it was said......well we find that it is Bofore the Cross and Before Jesus defeated sickness and death and the big one here is....Before The New Covenant or Contract was put into place.


I also wondered how God would take many of us home to heaven if we never became ill. Would we have to experience violence or accidents to get from this life to the next? Depending on how illness is defined, even dying in one’s sleep involves some sort of bodily failure.
Not sure how this fits in this but God Alotted man 120 years. By this no man would need to be sick to die. At 120 his earth suite just stops working.


Then the other question must be...…….why are those who claim there is healing in the atonement are often sick. I also wonder why, if is true that complete healing is for this life, why not claim it for sin also? Sickness has the potential to draw me closer to God, but sin always pushes me away. For that reason, being free from sin seems even more desirable than being free from coughs and colds or worse.
It seems you are trying to jumble up some truth here and make a profound statement.

Healing.....to be healed. To be made better.
If one does get sick they can be healed regardless of the issue.

If you draw closer to God when you are sick then it is because of your mind set. You go to Him for comfort and help and if you Believe that God gave you the sickness then you probably tend to perform or draw closer as in to gain His approval or pat on the back and a good boy.

So why does it take getting sick to push you towards God? Why not just be that way at all times?

Know Your Covenant
Understand God's Word
Enjoy your Salvation
Blessings in Christ
 
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Point taken: no one I knocking the concept of "LEADER".

I see and agree the point being made. And surprisingly, I do not see any confusion. The difference is more on emphasis on function or roles: all function and roles are towards to the common goal.

I would say it is similar to ( I used biblehub, and I chose a translation I see fit to my point :)

Are we not following scriptures if we call our earthly “fathers” father? Our bible “Teachers” teachers?

Of course, we are allowed, am looking for a more appropriate word to “justify” why we are still allowed to call our earthly fathers “fathers” our bible “Teachers” teachers:

Exigency? Simplicity?

Matthew 23:9 New International Version
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


Matthew 23:10 New Living Translation
And don't let anyone call you 'Teacher,' for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.
Just a thought to chew on.... When Jesus said not to call anyone else father... It was His way of saying don't make anyone more important than your Heavenly Father, or the Holy Spirit that teaches us. Don't give them a title that puts them above God.
 
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