Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

[crossnote]

My wife and I talked about this soon after I made that post above, and she mentioned how acceptance of Christ, who places His Holy Spirit within us, He makes revelations to us of whatsoever He so desires.

So, the question, then, is who and why 'deny' the Trinity? It's one thing to deny the doctrinal wording labeled as the 'Trinitarian Doctrinal Statement', but quite another to reject the Lord Himself after His having revealed Himself to one.

So, yes, I can reject the doctrinal statement itself on the grounds of it failing to grasp the fullness of the essence and interrelationship within what is called the 'Godhead,' but I will not deny He who is within me. He who is within has never pointed me to that doctrinal statement. It is Himself He points toward, for He and the Father are One. That is not an intellectually understood reality. It is experiential, which is beyond mere words. Words give to us what is similar to a directional sign on the roadway of life, only able to point to He who is the ultimate Destination, and who then makes it all experiential and living beyond anything mere words can give to us.

So, when others ask me if I believe in the Trinity, what should I say? Dare I say no to a belief in what they think can be verbalized in an attempt to define the Trinity, and they would see me as anathema. That's ok. There are those out there who are that harsh in their judgment of others.

Dare I put into words what I believe about the nature and essence of God, and I point simply to the words of Jesus stated in John 14, and what's inspired in Colossians 1. Anything else in addition to that is purely man-made, and therefore must be handled very carefully in discussion...especially when it comes to unbelievers to whom we are ministering.

MM

I would have a difficult time separating the Holy Spirit in me (experiential) from the Holy Spirit as the author of Scripture (objective), especially since the two should agree, and if they don’t, it would be my uninspired interpretation that would be found wanting.

 

[Musicmaster]

I would have a difficult time separating the Holy Spirit in me (experiential) from the Holy Spirit as the author of Scripture (objective), especially since the two should agree, and if they don’t, it would be my uninspired interpretation that would be found wanting.

I'm not sure I follow you, because I didn't even hint at the idea of separating Holy Spirit in any way. Can you explain further, please.

Thanks

MM

 

[crossnote]

I'm not sure I follow you, because I didn't even hint at the idea of separating Holy Spirit in any way. Can you explain further, please.

Thanks

MM

I was focusing more on the experiential/objective side of matters when it came to the Holy Spirit and His indwelling on the one hand and Him being the Author of Scripture on the other.
He reveals the Trinity in His Word and because we are indwelt by the Author we have His internal witness.

 

[2404]

By denying the Trinity, one is claiming to understand. Again...

I would simply ask, "Which of the three is not God? ...The Father?, the Son? or the Holy Spirit?"

It could be also said that 'trinity' is one word added.
One does not have to have an intellectual conception to believe for the church is built on revelation. Revelation is given according to a forordained measure and there is always more to be had.
As said, in my mind - all things created are a point in space. The creator is not so. He is the source of all things. He is not limited to His creation and yet by our finite thinking we try frame Him according to our understanding. The Word says there is one God so we ought to leave it at that.

 

[crossnote]

The Word says there is one God so we ought to leave it at that.

I believe it says more than that, e.g. …

John 1:1 ESV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 ESV
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Acts 5:3-4 ESV
[3] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God."

Again, I would ask, “Which of the three is not God? ...The Father?, the Son? or the Holy Spirit?"

 

[YeshuaFan]

I believe it says more than that, e.g. …

John 1:1 ESV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 ESV
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Acts 5:3-4 ESV
[3] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God."

Again, I would ask, “Which of the three is not God? ...The Father?, the Son? or the Holy Spirit?"

All 3 are Yahweh, and yet only is One Yahweh!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I'm not sure I follow you, because I didn't even hint at the idea of separating Holy Spirit in any way. Can you explain further, please.

Thanks

MM

We have just to accept God at His word, that he is One God, and yet is eternally 3 Persons, each fully God, and yet One God, not 3 gods!

 

[crossnote]

All 3 are Yahweh, and yet only is One Yahweh!

But only one is fully God / fully man.

 

[YeshuaFan]

But only one is fully God / fully man.

Yes

 

[DavyP]

There are many Bible Scriptures that show Jesus is God come in the flesh, Matthew 1:23 particularly with His name "Emmanuel", which says there it means 'God with us'. And we know The Father is God, and that The Holy Spirit is God, so what's the problem with understanding that Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh? That's really what ploys against the idea of Jesus being Emmanuel, God with us, is actually about (Matthew 1:23).

Many don't realize it, but this is the very matter that Apostle John was pointing to in the following verse...

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

Of course we know that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, born through Mary's womb, so what's John's point with that? His point is simple, once you understand the meaning of that word "Christ". That word Christ points to an Office, a Heavenly Office involving GOD. It is not an earthly name, not a flesh title. It is a Heavenly title. John is actually saying like Peter did, that Jesus of Nazareth is... The Christ (Mark 8:29).

In other words, John is saying that Lord Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. If John had said Immanuel from the Book of Isaiah prophecy about Jesus, that would have sealed this even more. For who ever heard even back in The Old Testament time of a virgin birth? Yet that was given as a sign by God through Isaiah.

What this boils down to is, to refuse to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, then it puts your faith in God's salvation in danger, because you would be putting your faith just in a man born like us, and not in God Who only can forgive our sins.

 

[Hopefull]

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

 

[GodisSpirit]

there's no question the Bible specifically reveals the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. but i believe what Jesus said that God is a Spirit, rather than a person. i also know we have proof that Matthew 28:19 originally stated [in My Name] and later changed in the 3rd century like the addition of 1 John 5:6-8 that originally stated:
[6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three, [Codex Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus] (existed before Jerome's Latin Vulgate)

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.]

and of course, we see this how the Disciples/Apostles Baptized in Name of Jesus.

John 4:24 God (Father) is a Spirit. we know the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. and when we read John 1:14 And the Word became flesh...clearly before becoming flesh the WORD was also a Spirit. Spirit = Same Essence!

God is indeed triune, but modern day definitions of Persons do not align with the Bible at all. it's therefore interesting to bash others when the modern definition is adding man's reasoning which cannot be found in the Bible. so no, a person does not have to follow Modern Definition to be saved knowing that Modern Definition is not found in the Bible itself.

 

[YeshuaFan]

there's no question the Bible specifically reveals the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. but i believe what Jesus said that God is a Spirit, rather than a person. i also know we have proof that Matthew 28:19 originally stated [in My Name] and later changed in the 3rd century like the addition of 1 John 5:6-8 that originally stated:
[6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three, [Codex Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus] (existed before Jerome's Latin Vulgate)

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.]

and of course, we see this how the Disciples/Apostles Baptized in Name of Jesus.

John 4:24 God (Father) is a Spirit. we know the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. and when we read John 1:14 And the Word became flesh...clearly before becoming flesh the WORD was also a Spirit. Spirit = Same Essence!

God is indeed triune, but modern day definitions of Persons do not align with the Bible at all. it's therefore interesting to bash others when the modern definition is adding man's reasoning which cannot be found in the Bible. so no, a person does not have to follow Modern Definition to be saved knowing that Modern Definition is not found in the Bible itself.

There are eternally 3 Persons within the One true God though, correct?

 

[GodisSpirit]

There are eternally 3 Persons within the One true God though, correct?

where is the word Person in the Bible located at. where does it say the Father is a Person in the Bible? where does it say the Holy Spirit is a Person in the Bible? But yes, the One True God = Father-WORD (Son)-Holy Spirit!

 

[bobinfaith]

there's no question the Bible specifically reveals the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. but i believe what Jesus said that God is a Spirit, rather than a person. i also know we have proof that Matthew 28:19 originally stated [in My Name] and later changed in the 3rd century like the addition of 1 John 5:6-8 that originally stated:
[6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three, [Codex Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus] (existed before Jerome's Latin Vulgate)

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.]

and of course, we see this how the Disciples/Apostles Baptized in Name of Jesus.

John 4:24 God (Father) is a Spirit. we know the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. and when we read John 1:14 And the Word became flesh...clearly before becoming flesh the WORD was also a Spirit. Spirit = Same Essence!

God is indeed triune, but modern day definitions of Persons do not align with the Bible at all. it's therefore interesting to bash others when the modern definition is adding man's reasoning which cannot be found in the Bible. so no, a person does not have to follow Modern Definition to be saved knowing that Modern Definition is not found in the Bible itself.

Hello GodisSpirit;

Amen. This has long been a discussion and debate but through prayer and study the Lord ultimately will guide us in solidifying our own distinction of interpretation and the modern definition which can be a discussion of it's own.

Just a side note. When you edit, be sure to check the box for "edit silently" and "last edited: 4 minutes ago" won't appear. I hope this helps.

I enjoyed what you just shared.

 

[bobinfaith]

There are eternally 3 Persons within the One true God though, correct?

Hello YeshuaFan;

I know what you mean and you are correct. When the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is being referred to as "Persons," lets say in conversation over a cup of coffee, I know what you mean.

God bless you, brother.

 

[GodisSpirit]

Hello YeshuaFan;

I know what you mean and you are correct. When the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is being referred to as "Persons," lets say in conversation over a cup of coffee, I know what you mean.

God bless you, brother.

we know the expressions we read in the Bible shows us the Triune God is personable in All that God is. I am just going directly by what the Bible claims and the wording chosen. i mean my dogs listen to me, they react to my differences in voice sounds, they reacts when i hug and kiss them, they comfort me when they know i feel bad. but they are not Persons even though they have similar traits that i do. I just go by what Jesus Himself said, God is a Spirit. i figure if it comes from the mouth of God in the flesh, it must be how i should address God.

 

[bobinfaith]

we know the expressions we read in the Bible shows us the Triune God is personable in All that God is. I am just going directly by what the Bible claims and the wording chosen. i mean my dogs listen to me, they react to my differences in voice sounds, they reacts when i hug and kiss them, they comfort me when they know i feel bad. but they are not Persons even though they have similar traits that i do. I just go by what Jesus Himself said, God is a Spirit. i figure if it comes from the mouth of God in the flesh, it must be how i should address God.

Hello GodisSpirit;

I understand, brother, and as we press on to remain in one accord and one body in the Christian community, we're also uniquely created individuals by God who will share and express our views, verbs, nouns and interpretation of the Word and especially in the application of our witness.

This strengthens our fellowship, grow and bond our relationships, understand and learn from each other. We're all a work in progress.

Once again, welcome to Christian Forum Site, GodisSpirit.

 

[GodisSpirit]

Hello GodisSpirit;

I understand, brother, and as we press on to remain in one accord and one body in the Christian community, we're also uniquely created individuals by God who will share and express our views, verbs, nouns and interpretation of the Word and especially in the application of our witness.

This strengthens our fellowship, grow and bond our relationships, understand and learn from each other. We're all a work in progress.

Once again, welcome to Christian Forum Site, GodisSpirit.

Amen!

but isn't it interesting how a Doctrine that uses definitions and terms not found in God's Word, has not only become a modern day truth, but a platform to slam other idealism's?

 

[Desiring More Truth]

Where does God describe himself as a trinity? I can show you where it says that He is one God and thou shalt have no other gods.
Trinity is not scriptural so where does it come from....
Jesus Christ is God's flesh manifestation.
St. John 1 it says 'in the beginning' - now tell me where does eternity have a beginning?
Instead it was the beginning of God manifesting Himself in creation - as the Logos/Word'.

William Branham denied the Trinity and you think he was a man of God. I was in a non-Trinitarian cult. I prayed to the "Real God" and asked Him to teach me Who He is. I began studying the Bible. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three Persons in One God. They are not three gods. Before I knew God i addressed Him as "the Real God" because I wanted Him to know I was seeking Him.

Who raised Jesus from the dead? Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 44:
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Could it not be that it is God in different manifestations?
We are one creatied being and so we try to make everything fir into our perspective.
No one can understand God. A being that has every molecular movement in the universe in control... No beginning and no end.
Our commission is to believe not to understand.
We will have all of eternity to marvel at His greatness, and we will never reach the end.
Won't that be a glorious time!!!

No, God can't be manifstations. The members of the Godhead speak to one another(Jesus spoke to and prayed to His Father), God gave His only begotten Son, the Holy Spirit was sent.

Jesus did His Father's will (prayer in Gethsemane), when on the cross Jesus asked the Father to forgive them. John 1:1 The Word was God and the Word was with God. The Sons sits with the Father. (Rev.3: 21).