Pastor goes from earth to heaven to earth!
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To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord.
A new body will be acquired at the resurrection/rapture of the saints. In the meantime, all those who die in Christ go directly to heaven in spirit...where Jesus is...as well as all the saints who have died before.
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I was 100% concussed for 45 minutes in a bycicle accident from trying to dodge a black cat. I saw and recall...absolutely nothing. God just made sure someone stopped to help me.
I have thought about writing a book about my out of body experience but doubt anyone will want it over others
.God can do anything but He prefers to not do something like this. He does not want someone making others think He is partial or give them cause to cause others to take their focus off Him. Which is ironically what does happen. We focus on ear tickling sensationalism. We all want to hear about heaven and hell. Visions are scriptural. Actual visitation I would say only possible if God needs you to write 3/4 of the NT. He doesn't. Its already been done by Paul.
NDE is another story though. If I recall correctly you do agree with some of those testimonies?
As in you are about to die but Jesus / angel asks if you want to stay or go. Or you get a final chance to accept Jesus.
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I have read that those dead he communed with were all the same age as when they died. Also that his account of the pearly gates is unscriptural.
Agreed!
No sir. I believe that NDE is nothing more than the mind fighting to stay alive. We all have read and prayed and heard stories of heaven and all of a sudden we find ourselves uncouncouse and it is then that the mind is free to grab onto all that stuff that we hold so dear to our hearts..............going to heaven to see our passed loved ones.
For me it is simple.
Ecc 9:5; "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psalms 115:17: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Acts 2:
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
The scripture must speak. It also saves a lot of heart ache from false prophets.
Regards,
MoG
Ecc 9:5; "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psalms 115:17: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Acts 2:
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
The scripture must speak. It also saves a lot of heart ache from false prophets.
Regards,
MoG
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I find myself in the middle again: there is a 'narrow' path that we have to evaluate and use our human thinking to decipher. And thence there is the problem; because it has to be from the Holy Spirit to be true. Now; what 'measure' of the Spirit does each of us have...?
I look at like this; there is always duplicity in our 'realm' if you will: there is the "physical" and the "spiritual". The overlay is narrow, where the Truth can be found. I think we have a tendency to 'over-spiritulize' things on one hand and try to comprehend supernatural occurrences with natural / physical / 'scientific' explanations on the other hand.
I don't how it is; but I believe with God it is both at the same time; using what is around us to complete His will for His ultimate Glory using the natural and supernatural. This is a mystery of God (because our human brain has the lack of capacity to render all things as God does.)
So is his story 'truth'? I have no idea; but there are worse things that can be read. I suppose if it fulfills God's purpose for reaching people for the Gospel...well you be the judge.
Maybe we need to be willing to be wrong, maybe there is humility in this.....
I look at like this; there is always duplicity in our 'realm' if you will: there is the "physical" and the "spiritual". The overlay is narrow, where the Truth can be found. I think we have a tendency to 'over-spiritulize' things on one hand and try to comprehend supernatural occurrences with natural / physical / 'scientific' explanations on the other hand.
I don't how it is; but I believe with God it is both at the same time; using what is around us to complete His will for His ultimate Glory using the natural and supernatural. This is a mystery of God (because our human brain has the lack of capacity to render all things as God does.)
So is his story 'truth'? I have no idea; but there are worse things that can be read. I suppose if it fulfills God's purpose for reaching people for the Gospel...well you be the judge.
Maybe we need to be willing to be wrong, maybe there is humility in this.....
I remember someone else in the past claiming to have died and gone to heaven and then come back again - a televangelist of some kind, someone widely considered to be a false prophet. I remember what someone wrote online at that time, and it was basically making reference to Paul's experiences in 2 Corinthians:
"I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter." - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
There's an essential mystery attached to these things. The online commenter, whose remarks I remember, said that if Paul wouldn't speak about these things and deemed it impermissable for man to utter them, then who was this chap on TV that he feels he can describe these alleged experiences on talkshows and in books?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe that heaven is something any of us could describe adequately with human language. The scripture tells about certain features of heaven (e.g. Colossians 3:1, John 14:2), but this would really describe some of the things that characterise (wonderfully so!) heaven, rather describe than the realm itself. In Revelation, we get a wealth of figurative detail about heaven, but that is spiritually apprehended, rather than literally understood. That said, I'm in no doubt that we - as believers - do taste heaven now: most distinctively at the Supper. I feel though that we enter into these precious things by the Holy Spirit, by faith's vision, not by imaginings built around a literal description. If God had wanted us to know the detail of heaven in a mental way, He would surely have given us a detailed description of it in His word - perhaps He would've moved Paul to describe what he saw, rather than forbidding him. It would seem though that we're to rely wholly on the Spirit if we're to enjoy the atmosphere of heaven at the present time. What do the brethren think?
"I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter." - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
There's an essential mystery attached to these things. The online commenter, whose remarks I remember, said that if Paul wouldn't speak about these things and deemed it impermissable for man to utter them, then who was this chap on TV that he feels he can describe these alleged experiences on talkshows and in books?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe that heaven is something any of us could describe adequately with human language. The scripture tells about certain features of heaven (e.g. Colossians 3:1, John 14:2), but this would really describe some of the things that characterise (wonderfully so!) heaven, rather describe than the realm itself. In Revelation, we get a wealth of figurative detail about heaven, but that is spiritually apprehended, rather than literally understood. That said, I'm in no doubt that we - as believers - do taste heaven now: most distinctively at the Supper. I feel though that we enter into these precious things by the Holy Spirit, by faith's vision, not by imaginings built around a literal description. If God had wanted us to know the detail of heaven in a mental way, He would surely have given us a detailed description of it in His word - perhaps He would've moved Paul to describe what he saw, rather than forbidding him. It would seem though that we're to rely wholly on the Spirit if we're to enjoy the atmosphere of heaven at the present time. What do the brethren think?
Imho there are NDE's and then there are NDE's. I believe we all have a kind of 'out of this world' encounter with God when first saved / repent and take serving Him seriously. I believe that for many this 'same' kind of encounter can happen on their deathbed. But anything like visiting heaven or hell to bring back a special message / insider info....
.I think all Christians need to sign a petition that demands all those bringing out conflicting beliefs to the bible do a lie detector test. With time it is possible to convince yourself that what started out as a lie is not really a lie if you repeat the lie a lot.
Sin for a Christian is very interesting. I believe many Christians commit great sins and try justify and live with it. Excuse it some way. We are really good at taking advantage of God's goodness because unlike others, we ''know'' He is good, merciful and slow to anger. This has been on my mind a lot of late. I think Christians can keep very big skeletons in their closet. And on some level I think God is ok with it. It could be that he lied at first to make some money and with time he had to keep it up and even comit to a book on it. He 'could' be so deep in it now that he feels there is no way out. No way to undo the lie. I don't think God will be harsh on him though. As in 'reveal his dishonesty and embarass him to the world'. I think God understands his predicament. God I believe has more of a gripe with us. He expects us to know better.
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That is a really good point! I think you just ended the debate with that.
I hear you brother and I have no intention to argue the point. I will say however in response to the examples you gave compared to what I stated originally about people going to heaven today and then coming back to tell us about it is very different.
You spoke of Enoch and Elijah and how they were taken to heaven and it is an excellent example; but they did not return to tell their stories to the people. Not one in the Old testament has been permitted to return with a testimony of what it is like.
Now, if we believe a man really died, and really went to heaven and really came back from heaven to tell us all about it, that person would then be a very special person. He would be thought of as a super Christian who has been specially blessed by God.
Is that what the Bible teaches us about God???????
We then are believing what we want to believe and not what God has actually said. Acts 10:34..........
"And Peter, having opened his mouth, said, "Of a truth I understand that God is not One who shows partiality".
If we accept that a man died and went to heaven and came back, we my brother are in fact allowing that man to have the respect of God.
The same thing applies to the Transfiguration. No one in that group returned to life on the earth and began to tell everyone else what heaven is like. The meeting on the mount of transfiguration appears to have been a spiritual meeting rather than a physical meeting. It appears that neither Moses' or Elijah's bodies were involved. So again, it is probably not the best place to look for guidelines on what happens after death.
From what I see, and it is my opinion, people hear a story of someone going to heaven and because the Bible speaks of a few people that went, they believe these modern stories are just as true even when they contradict the Bible.
Paul going to heaven mentions no angel or vehicle to take him. Where does the Bible teach such a doctrine that people go to heaven and come back? Those taken were a very unusual event, just as walking on water was unique, taken to heaven was more so.
Then consider the Bible fact found in Phil 3:20-21..........
“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body “
A complete transformation of the body is needed for one to go to heaven to live there. That means anyone going there today would have to be glorified and then un-glorified. To me, that make no sense at all. But that just me and everyone is free to believe as they wish to believe.
Box built and stuffed
Box built and stuffed
If you are trying to say that I am putting God in a box I have to disagree. God is of course God and He can, does and will do anything He wants to do.
I just do not in my heart believe that God is going to allow anyone to actually die, go to heaven and them come back and write a book and make a movie so as to profit from the experience. My comments were to validate that thought and were not to say that God can do so if He so chooses. We have to be very careful these days because the Devil is wary, slick and deceitful and is working very hard to get our eyes off of Jesus and onto ourselves.
Lets try something here just for fun...........I live about 4 miles from the St. Johns river. It is a wide and deep river of about 100 yard where I went. I went there yesterday to fish with one of my grandchildren and while I was there I walked across it on top of the water. Do you believe me???
We are on the same page!
Please consider my actual words........ "It actually confirms Jesus as the Messiah and God and harmonizes John 1:1-3."
And I disagree. I do believe that the passage teaches that no one has gone up and then come down again in order to profit from that experience.
Beyond that, if Nickodemus did not accept earthly things, matters of spiritual nature which take place on the earth, then he would not believe heavenly things. Firsthad knowledge must come from the Son of God. Knowledge of heavenly things is only possible through the Lord Jesus, that came down from heaven.
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