Poll on hell

[Major]

To put it simply, I'm inclined to say eternal torment. God won't necessarily take you out of existence, but he won't force you into his presence if you have no desire to be with him. And the lack of God leads to torment and even the inability to love.

Lysander....my experience with this teaching has been that it is rooted in the physic of man. The people who believe annihilation will not admit it but a personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. Therefore our minds just can not accept the Bible fact of eternal torment of our loved ones.

But the TRUTH of Scriptures tell us that when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by.

Rev. 21:4........
“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without all of our loved ones there, but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so that they will be there.

 

[Major]

We have had threads that went on and on about it. In the OP it was stated that there was not to be an intense debate so I am trying to respect that.

And you think that is an acceptable excuse to use the phrase........."in your mind and will not listen to the truth."

No sir. I am not buying your excuse. Your comment itself was rather "intense" to me.

 

[Major]

KingJ, a word of caution.......the passage you cited, Matt 8:29. is telling us what demons, lying spirits, enemies of God and His truth cried out.
Do you think it wise to frame any sort of belief on the lies of demons?

Absolutely correct calvin!

And it is that kind of Bible study and exergesis which will prove that the Bible does not support annihilation.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

I had to 'settle this in my heart' not too long ago; Jesus confirmed Isaiah (and other OT Scripture):

Isaiah 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Lysander....my experience with this teaching has been that it is rooted in the physic of man. The people who believe annihilation will not admit it but a personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. Therefore our minds just can not accept the Bible fact of eternal torment of our loved ones.

But the TRUTH of Scriptures tell us that when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by.

Rev. 21:4........
“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without all of our loved ones there, but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so that they will be there.

I suspect that's true. I want to believe it would be either Universalism or even Annihilation just as I want to still believe in a Santa Claus -- both would make be happier in believing these things, but truth trumps happiness, so I can't go with either of those.

 

[Major]

I suspect that's true. I want to believe it would be either Universalism or even Annihilation just as I want to still believe in a Santa Claus -- both would make be happier in believing these things, but truth trumps happiness, so I can't go with either of those.

Exactly my point as well.

 

[Man-ofGod]

This is not meant for intense debate. I am just interested in CFS's stats. The poll is for those who go to hell, not Purgatory.

Universalism = Pay for crime accordingly and then go to heaven.

Matt 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues through all generations.

Annihilation = Cease to exist.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Eternal torture = Suffer in fire for eternity.

Death is never annihilation, it is a state when in sin. Prov 36:8 But those who fail to find me harm themselves; all who hate me love death. Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Eternal Torment / Limited suffering = No burning sensation. The fire is as figurative as the word death.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds. We would not punish a thief as we would a murderer. Matt 25:32 and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

I choose # 4.
Shouldn't we all agree with Geneva convention? They correctly ordained that killing and torturing our enemy is wrong. I would choose # 1 if it were not for the verdict of 'mankind loving darkness' in John 3:19.

I am just glad no one voted for universalism.

 

[Abdicate]

As do we all. Your comment is kind of generic....don't you think.

But accurate

 

[autumn oddity]

Not so my brother. Actually there is not one single verse that would support Annihilation.

Right, im sorry but the torement- type hell we all are trying to avoid does exist. And if the conditions jesus warned us of about hell are just figurative... then that cold extent to the wonders of heaven... and I know thats not true.

Heaven IS a place where there is no pain,no fear, just a state of blithe.

Sadly, hell is torement ..its not a place where "bad" people go, seeing as( in my opinion) most non religious people are considerate or kind... its just for those that don't accept Jesus as their Lord and the Lord.

Hitler could have been saved..IF he repented..after all Moses and Paul were and paul approved of stephens murder..

But yah if hell wasnt a misery inducing , godless place... there'd be no need to share the gospel really.. bc thats the purpose. So people will accept Him, in turn God can clean them up and return with Him in heaven..like it was before,in the garden.

 

[autumn oddity]

Agreed. But also the fact that God instructs us to and our renewed heart convicts us to, love our enemy. I have to see hell as a place that God just keeps His enemy that hates Him. If I think of it as a place where His / our enemies are tortured...I just can't swallow that pill.

Why not? Its in there... alot of things Jesus said/ did was a hard pill for alot of people to swallow..but if we are to believe the bible, we have to believe all of it..not just the part we are comfortable with. And im sorry to say it is a place of torement for his enemies. And his enemies arent restricted to fallen angels but those who dont love/ accept Him... although it was never intended for people .

But major posted scripture of what happens to the Lords enemies once all is resolved...

I guess its just one of those things, it is what it is.. just keep yourself on track and try to save others along the way.

 

[calvin]

Agreed. But also the fact that God instructs us to and our renewed heart convicts us to, love our enemy. I have to see hell as a place that God just keeps His enemy that hates Him. If I think of it as a place where His / our enemies are tortured...I just can't swallow that pill.

It may well be that the eternal torment is something that is self inflicted.
Many, cite the 'injustice' of God, (or appointed angels) for sitting around for all eternity with a cattle prod or similar tormenting people as reason enough for rejecting belief in Him.
However the thought never seems to enter people's minds that torment comes from within.
When a person who has rejected the truth, rejected Jesus, finally and too late realize just who and what they have rejected and what they have disqualified themselves from enjoying for all eternity, that will be torment eternal.
But they had a choice.
They chose rejection of Jesus, and they get their choice, a choice that will endure for all eternity.
Consider also that the lake of fire might not be a ginormous stew pot into which all the condemned are thrown.
It could be a state of eternal torment that is very personal in nature rather than a communal sauna. A place where the condemned, (Satan included) will be left alone, (in isolation) for all eternity with nothing but their own memories and regrets to keep them company.
No others to exchange memories with, no dementure to lessen their tormenting memories, nothing at all...just their memories and the knowledge that they are reaping what they have sown.
Remember the account of Lazarus and the rich man in hell? Notice that the rich man is alone, there are no myriads of others there also calling for water. The torment was very personal and the isolation was unbreachable.
So please, in your thinking, do not put the consequences of bad choices by men off onto the Lord, nor dismiss the warnings He has given us.

 

[Heart_for_Christ]

I had to 'settle this in my heart' not too long ago; Jesus confirmed Isaiah (and other OT Scripture):

Isaiah 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Wow. I was wondering whether it was eternal torment or annihilation.
This scripture settles it for me.

 

[KingJ]

Why not? Its in there... alot of things Jesus said/ did was a hard pill for alot of people to swallow..but if we are to believe the bible, we have to believe all of it..not just the part we are comfortable with. And im sorry to say it is a place of torement for his enemies. And his enemies arent restricted to fallen angels but those who dont love/ accept Him... although it was never intended for people .

But major posted scripture of what happens to the Lords enemies once all is resolved...

I guess its just one of those things, it is what it is.. just keep yourself on track and try to save others along the way.

Its a pill I can't swallow because the volume of scripture does NOT point there. There are only a few verses cherry picked and used in isolation. We need to take Rev 20:10 and ADD the rest of scripture. God instructs us / because it pleases Him...to LOVE our enemies.

We also need to distinguish between the words 'torture' and 'torment'.

Oscar Pretorius crying in regret = torment. Oscar Pretorius being burnt alive for longer then 30 seconds = torture.

There is NO scripture or evidence pointing to God torturing His enemy past or present. Now we take two or three verses suggesting eternal torment and paint a picture of an evil God in the unknown future that will torture His enemy..? NO. That is ridiculous. As I said in my OP, if the Geneva convention treats prisoners good, how much MORE Christians should.....how MUCH MORE our God!

Just think about it. '''As it is written in the days to come, God will introduce His finely crafted torture devices that will pull and twist men's limbs for all eternity''. ''Then it will come to pass in those days that God's enemies will be burnt alive in excruciating pain and suffering ...for not one day, not 30 days, not 25 years, not 100 years...not even a million years...no, we shall see and be fully aware of our loved ones that did not make it being burnt alive in excruciating pain for all of eternity and we will be able to do nothing about it''.

If anyone suffers in the future, we will ALL (God inclusive) rush to their aid. How in the universe can any of us think otherwise?

Hitler = 5 years of torturing kids and killing Jews = 100 years in prison with no torture. The devil = 6000 years of deceiving and hurting God's loved ones = (100/5 x 6000) = 120 thousand years in prison. Then put them all in Australia with no animals or kids to hurt.

 

[KingJ]

It may well be that the eternal torment is something that is self inflicted.
Many, cite the 'injustice' of God, (or appointed angels) for sitting around for all eternity with a cattle prod or similar tormenting people as reason enough for rejecting belief in Him.
However the thought never seems to enter people's minds that torment comes from within.
When a person who has rejected the truth, rejected Jesus, finally and too late realize just who and what they have rejected and what they have disqualified themselves from enjoying for all eternity, that will be torment eternal.
But they had a choice.
They chose rejection of Jesus, and they get their choice, a choice that will endure for all eternity.
Consider also that the lake of fire might not be a ginormous stew pot into which all the condemned are thrown.
It could be a state of eternal torment that is very personal in nature rather than a communal sauna. A place where the condemned, (Satan included) will be left alone, (in isolation) for all eternity with nothing but their own memories and regrets to keep them company.
No others to exchange memories with, no dementure to lessen their tormenting memories, nothing at all...just their memories and the knowledge that they are reaping what they have sown.
Remember the account of Lazarus and the rich man in hell? Notice that the rich man is alone, there are no myriads of others there also calling for water. The torment was very personal and the isolation was unbreachable.
So please, in your thinking, do not put the consequences of bad choices by men off onto the Lord, nor dismiss the warnings He has given us.

I mostly agree. Though complete isolation is torture. God will not be behind any torture. Why are we putting that on God? How is God not behind it if it happens in hell? We know ''God is good'' and tells us to love our enemies, why do we assume He will not treat His enemies better then we will?

I believe they will all be together and just have to learn to get on. We need to remember that we are talking about billions of angels and billions of humans.

Let's say our enemy is paedophile. How do we show love?

Loving our kids = send paedophile to prison for 20 years + never trusted to be alone with any kids.
Love paedophile = make sure he is well fed + candy bars + regular visits + yard time for good behavior + a 'nice as possible' place to live in when he is out of prison.

 

[KingJ]

I understand your thinking and you know very well I respect you, but what you are thinking simply is not Scripture.

Luke 16 is the definitive explanation of hell and then John expands that in Revelation 20.

Luke 16 + Rev 20 + the rest of scripture = what happens in hell.

Judged according to works + love enemy as much as possible + no evil in God = no torture devices.

But, some interesting 'behind the scene' observations on Luke 16:
1. The rich man was capable of having a conversation with God = no excruciating pain.
2. The rich man was not upset with God = God not torturing Him.
3. God interacted with the rich man = God still cares about him.

Every sinner today has not got peace. I believe the rich man / those in hell properly grasp their ''no peace'' = fire. If I look at a rich man I will complain about my 'broken and old' car, my crappy house. I will ask him to just give me one million dollars to improve my circumstances.

 

[Major]

Luke 16 + Rev 20 + the rest of scripture = what happens in hell.

Judged according to works + love enemy as much as possible + no evil in God = no torture devices.

But, some interesting 'behind the scene' observations on Luke 16:
1. The rich man was capable of having a conversation with God = no excruciating pain.
2. The rich man was not upset with God = God not torturing Him.
3. God interacted with the rich man = God still cares about him.

Every sinner today has not got peace. I believe the rich man / those in hell properly grasp their ''no peace'' = fire. If I look at a rich man I will complain about my 'broken and old' car, my crappy house. I will ask him to just give me one million dollars to improve my circumstances.

Ok.
1. The rich man was capable of having a conversation with God = no excruciating pain.

Actually the rich man did not talk with God. He talked with Abraham.

2. The rich man was not upset with God = God not torturing Him.

I think you may be adding a little to the Scriptures there brother. My thinking would be that since he was not a believer, he would have not reason to be upset with God.

Luke 16:24......
"And he CRIED and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME"!!

3. God interacted with the rich man = God still cares about him.

Again...not so. The Scriptures say that he spoke with Abraham, not God.

2 Peter 3:9.....
"The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Luke 15:10............
There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth".

 

[KingJ]

Actually the rich man did not talk with God. He talked with Abraham.

My mind was so focused elsewhere.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Hey KingJ- I know you and I have similar thinking patterns: I know it's tough-well it actually sucks! I struggle with knowing I will be seeing most of my family going to Hell. I've given them the Gospel, prayed, invited them to every Church event we offer....

I am trying to learn how to love them like Christ would; in hopes that maybe an example will turn their hearts. It is all we can "do". It is in the Hands of God and the hearts of men.

It's God's will and plan....we have to let it be his way.

 

[Godspell]

This is not meant for intense debate. I am just interested in CFS's stats. The poll is for those who go to hell, not Purgatory.

Universalism = Pay for crime accordingly and then go to heaven.

Matt 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues through all generations.

Annihilation = Cease to exist.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Eternal torture = Suffer in fire for eternity.

Death is never annihilation, it is a state when in sin. Prov 36:8 But those who fail to find me harm themselves; all who hate me love death. Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Eternal Torment / Limited suffering = No burning sensation. The fire is as figurative as the word death.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds. We would not punish a thief as we would a murderer. Matt 25:32 and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

I choose # 4.
Shouldn't we all agree with Geneva convention? They correctly ordained that killing and torturing our enemy is wrong. I would choose # 1 if it were not for the verdict of 'mankind loving darkness' in John 3:19.

With great regret I have to say I really don't know and I think it is a mystery. I've been inclined to hope for universal reconciliation, but I could hardly be persuaded to treat it dogmatically. On the other hand I can hardly think of any crime that would warrant eternal torment.

I do think, however, that people usually teach the doctrine wrong. The Bible speaks of a resurrection of the dead, presumably in the physical world and not in some spiritual realm.

Also people often speak of it in a manner that could borderline on blasphemy. If ever one attributes an injustice to God it is a blasphemy, especially if it turns someone away from the faith.

What I've recently been coming to understand that acceptance of the Son is an acceptance of the grace for which He is the origin. I don't necessarily think it is a conscious assent to particular religious dogmas. In that case virtuous people, even in erroneous professions may have in fact accepted the Son of God in some mystical sense.

 

[Man-ofGod]

The idea of torment in the last days comes in two places in Revelation. During the 7 plagues, and finally in the second death after the millennium period, in which Death and Hell is thrown in the lake of fire. But the torment is not indefinite.

I do not believe it to be a mystery. I believe it is pretty plain in scripture. Just take at its plain , literal interpretation.

You have to answer these both questions from scripture correctly to unravel the mystery:

What happens when you die?

What happens after the 1000 years have ended?