Poll on hell

[KingJ]

KingJ, a word of caution.......the passage you cited, Matt 8:29. is telling us what demons, lying spirits, enemies of God and His truth cried out.
Do you think it wise to frame any sort of belief on the lies of demons?

When the devil tried to fool Jesus in Matt 4, he was corrected. These demons were not corrected because they were no lying or trying to twist scripture.

What is interesting is what they do not say. They do not say ''Here is the unjust and merciless God''. They do acknowledge that a time of torment is coming and that God is behind its enforcement.

 

[KingJ]

The idea of torment in the last days comes in two places in Revelation. During the 7 plagues, and finally in the second death after the millennium period, in which Death and Hell is thrown in the lake of fire. But the torment is not indefinite.

I do not believe it to be a mystery. I believe it is pretty plain in scripture. Just take at its plain , literal interpretation.

You have to answer these both questions from scripture correctly to unravel the mystery:

1. What happens when you die?

2. What happens after the 1000 years have ended?

Hi, do you have scripture for the underlined?

1. Go to heaven or Gehenna
2. White throne judgment for hell? I see the Bema seat judgment as a 'live' judgment.

 

[Major]

Hey KingJ- I know you and I have similar thinking patterns: I know it's tough-well it actually sucks! I struggle with knowing I will be seeing most of my family going to Hell. I've given them the Gospel, prayed, invited them to every Church event we offer....

I am trying to learn how to love them like Christ would; in hopes that maybe an example will turn their hearts. It is all we can "do". It is in the Hands of God and the hearts of men.

It's God's will and plan....we have to let it be his way.

Amen brother. I think all of us are in the same condition.

 

[Major]

My mind was so focused elsewhere.

I am just glad to have a mind at all by this time. No big deal brother.

 

[Major]

It may well be that the eternal torment is something that is self inflicted.
Many, cite the 'injustice' of God, (or appointed angels) for sitting around for all eternity with a cattle prod or similar tormenting people as reason enough for rejecting belief in Him.
However the thought never seems to enter people's minds that torment comes from within.
When a person who has rejected the truth, rejected Jesus, finally and too late realize just who and what they have rejected and what they have disqualified themselves from enjoying for all eternity, that will be torment eternal.
But they had a choice.
They chose rejection of Jesus, and they get their choice, a choice that will endure for all eternity.
Consider also that the lake of fire might not be a ginormous stew pot into which all the condemned are thrown.
It could be a state of eternal torment that is very personal in nature rather than a communal sauna. A place where the condemned, (Satan included) will be left alone, (in isolation) for all eternity with nothing but their own memories and regrets to keep them company.
No others to exchange memories with, no dementure to lessen their tormenting memories, nothing at all...just their memories and the knowledge that they are reaping what they have sown.
Remember the account of Lazarus and the rich man in hell? Notice that the rich man is alone, there are no myriads of others there also calling for water. The torment was very personal and the isolation was unbreachable.
So please, in your thinking, do not put the consequences of bad choices by men off onto the Lord, nor dismiss the warnings He has given us.

Agreed completely. What ever the lake of fire turns out to be there are two truths that we need to grasp.

1. I am not going there because I am a child of the most high God!

2. It will be by our own choice as to where we will be for eternity.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Hi, do you have scripture for the underlined?

1. Go to heaven or Gehenna
2. White throne judgment for hell? I see the Bema seat judgment as a 'live' judgment.

Sure. Keeping in mind that I believe the scripture as it reads. Literal.

Concerning the wicked

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

mal 4:4
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.



matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Ecc 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

note: if they are in heaven, where is the love? If they are in hell, where is the hatred? They are simply not, they know not anything and are dead. I take it as it reads, no spinning the text to fit my idea. That is how I study the scripture.

Concerning Satan himself:

Eze 28: 8 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 

[ASUK]

Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity.

Please explain how his death was infinite.

 

[Major]

Please explain how his death was infinite.

Certainly. It is always a joy to speak of the great things Christ has done for all of us. It is first and foremost about "Atonement".

I am sure that you know the Atonement is a reconciliation with God of a fellowship that was broken due to human sin. In the Old Covenant and under the Mosaic Law, the people achieved atonement by the prescribed animal sacrifices (see the Book of Leviticus chapters 1-11).

This atonement was temporary - in the sense that after the sacrifice, if the person bringing the sacrifice committed yet another sin, which of course he always did, - they would have to bring in yet another offering ... and so on and so forth. In other words, the Old Economy was on long series of bloody sacrifice that had to be done over and over because the sin debt of man was "Infinite".

Then comes the Lord Jesus Christ - "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" as stated in John's Gospel. As the unique Son of the Father, He comes in and take your place and my place on the Cross of Calvary and dies for us - ----
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The "infinite" worth and value of Christ's sacrifice is captured by the author of Hebrews 9:11-14........................
"But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer’s ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?"

The sacrifice of Christ was fully acceptable to God and is seen in Christ's resurrection - the first-fruits from the dead. There remains no more sacrifice that can be done that would appease God. He is fully satisfied in His Son. Hence the worth and efficacy of His sacrifice is "infinite" and endless.

 

[KingJ]

Sure. Keeping in mind that I believe the scripture as it reads. Literal.

Concerning the wicked

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

mal 4:4
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.



matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Ecc 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

note: if they are in heaven, where is the love? If they are in hell, where is the hatred? They are simply not, they know not anything and are dead. I take it as it reads, no spinning the text to fit my idea. That is how I study the scripture.

Concerning Satan himself:

Eze 28: 8 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ok, thanks Man of God.

 

[ASUK]

Certainly. It is always a joy to speak of the great things Christ has done for all of us. It is first and foremost about "Atonement".

I am sure that you know the Atonement is a reconciliation with God of a fellowship that was broken due to human sin. In the Old Covenant and under the Mosaic Law, the people achieved atonement by the prescribed animal sacrifices (see the Book of Leviticus chapters 1-11).

This atonement was temporary - in the sense that after the sacrifice, if the person bringing the sacrifice committed yet another sin, which of course he always did, - they would have to bring in yet another offering ... and so on and so forth. In other words, the Old Economy was on long series of bloody sacrifice that had to be done over and over because the sin debt of man was "Infinite".

Then comes the Lord Jesus Christ - "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" as stated in John's Gospel. As the unique Son of the Father, He comes in and take your place and my place on the Cross of Calvary and dies for us - ----
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The "infinite" worth and value of Christ's sacrifice is captured by the author of Hebrews 9:11-14........................
"But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer’s ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?"

The sacrifice of Christ was fully acceptable to God and is seen in Christ's resurrection - the first-fruits from the dead. There remains no more sacrifice that can be done that would appease God. He is fully satisfied in His Son. Hence the worth and efficacy of His sacrifice is "infinite" and endless.

Thank you for answering. I understand what you are saying for the most part. Christ's death was an infinite answer for man's infinite debt. However, his actual death was not infinite. It lasted 3 days.

 

[Major]

Thank you for answering. I understand what you are saying for the most part. Christ's death was an infinite answer for man's infinite debt. However, his actual death was not infinite. It lasted 3 days.

That is of course true, however, the blood of Christ has the power to atone for an infinite number of sins committed by an infinite number of people throughout the an infinite number of years, and all whose faith rests in that blood will be saved.

Maybe a better word here for you might be "Incalculable".

Meaning being greater than can be calculated or reckoned: incalculable riches; countless hours; an immeasurable distance; an incomputable amount; jewels of inestimable value; an infinite number of reasons; innumerable difficulties; infinite number of sins; measureless power.

 

[calvin]

Maybe an adequate adjective for the power and effectiveness of Christ's blood would be 'adequate'?

 

[Godspell]

The idea of torment in the last days comes in two places in Revelation. During the 7 plagues, and finally in the second death after the millennium period, in which Death and Hell is thrown in the lake of fire. But the torment is not indefinite.

I do not believe it to be a mystery. I believe it is pretty plain in scripture. Just take at its plain , literal interpretation.

You have to answer these both questions from scripture correctly to unravel the mystery:

What happens when you die?

What happens after the 1000 years have ended?

That is fine. But 1500 years of christian tradition disagrees with you, and virtually all the early church fathers, both before and after the Bible was canonized, did not believe scripture can or should always be read literally.

The fact is that neither you nor I have physically been to hell and back and I seriously question anyone who claims to have been. So whatever conclusions we draw are speculation. And for that matter Revelation is filled with allegory and to read it literally is utterly absurd.

Hebrew writing is also filled with numerology. 7 tends to mean infinite, divine or total. 6 is finite, mortal or incomplete. 12 is for God's nation, formerly Israel, now Christendom. 1000 generally means eternal, or forever.

To answer your questions, final judgment occurs after we die. However I seriously question that original sin condemns the majority of the world or that those that die in ignorance are necessarily damned.

As to 1000 years, I don't try to interpret Revelation too much. However I tend to associate the events that happened to Christians in the first century with John's visions and I don't think all of it is applicable to us today. You can take that for what its worth.

 

[Man-ofGod]

That is fine. But 1500 years of christian tradition disagrees with you, and virtually all the early church fathers, both before and after the Bible was canonized, did not believe scripture can or should always be read literally.

The fact is that neither you nor I have physically been to hell and back and I seriously question anyone who claims to have been. So whatever conclusions we draw are speculation. And for that matter Revelation is filled with allegory and to read it literally is utterly absurd.

Hebrew writing is also filled with numerology. 7 tends to mean infinite, divine or total. 6 is finite, mortal or incomplete. 12 is for God's nation, formerly Israel, now Christendom. 1000 generally means eternal, or forever.

To answer your questions, final judgment occurs after we die. However I seriously question that original sin condemns the majority of the world or that those that die in ignorance are necessarily damned.

As to 1000 years, I don't try to interpret Revelation too much. However I tend to associate the events that happened to Christians in the first century with John's visions and I don't think all of it is applicable to us today. You can take that for what its worth.

Respectfully, this argument resembles another one made long ago:

Matt 15:
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Don't get mad at me.. Jesus said it not me

 

[Major]

Sure. Keeping in mind that I believe the scripture as it reads. Literal.

Concerning the wicked

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

mal 4:4
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.



matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Ecc 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

note: if they are in heaven, where is the love? If they are in hell, where is the hatred? They are simply not, they know not anything and are dead. I take it as it reads, no spinning the text to fit my idea. That is how I study the scripture.

Concerning Satan himself:

Eze 28: 8 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I am with you. I also am a literalist. However I would suggest that there may be some room here for you to do a little more in depth study to find the proper context and meaning before basing a firm doctrinal idea on something that may not be true.

Allow me to respond to your Bible quotes and give you my understanding. You are of course invited to reject my thoughts with no problem to me.

Malachi 4:1-4.......
These verses gives no basis for the error of annihilationism. It describes physical death, not the state of the soul after death. The unsaved are in conscious eternal woe as seen in Rev. 14:10-11; 20:11-15, as the saved are in conscious eternal bliss Rev. 21:1-7."

Fire language is common in connection with divine judgment and anger ( Gen. 19:24-28; Ps. 2:12; 89:46; Isa. 30:27; Jer. 4:4; 21:12; Amos 1:4, 7, 10, 12, 14; 2:2, 5).

Matthew 7:13..........
"The way that leadeth to destruction = ETERNAL DEATH!!!

The "broad" road "leads to destruction," namely, death and hell (cf. 25:34, 46; John 17:12; Rom. 9:22: Phil. 1:28; 3:19; 1 Tim. 6:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:1, 3; 3:16; Rev. 17:8, 11

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
"The dead do not know anything" does not mean they are insensible. Later revelation indicates that the dead are aware of their feelings, the past, other people, and other things (cf. Matt. 25:46; Luke 16:19-31; et al.).
In the context, the correct teaching here in this clause means the dead have no capacity to enjoy life as the living can.

 

[Man-ofGod]

I am with you. I also am a literalist. However I would suggest that there may be some room here for you to do a little more in depth study to find the proper context and meaning before basing a firm doctrinal idea on something that may not be true.

Allow me to respond to your Bible quotes and give you my understanding. You are of course invited to reject my thoughts with no problem to me.

Malachi 4:1-4.......
These verses gives no basis for the error of annihilationism. It describes physical death, not the state of the soul after death. The unsaved are in conscious eternal woe as seen in Rev. 14:10-11; 20:11-15, as the saved are in conscious eternal bliss Rev. 21:1-7."

Fire language is common in connection with divine judgment and anger ( Gen. 19:24-28; Ps. 2:12; 89:46; Isa. 30:27; Jer. 4:4; 21:12; Amos 1:4, 7, 10, 12, 14; 2:2, 5).

Matthew 7:13..........
"The way that leadeth to destruction = ETERNAL DEATH!!!

The "broad" road "leads to destruction," namely, death and hell (cf. 25:34, 46; John 17:12; Rom. 9:22: Phil. 1:28; 3:19; 1 Tim. 6:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:1, 3; 3:16; Rev. 17:8, 11

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
"The dead do not know anything" does not mean they are insensible. Later revelation indicates that the dead are aware of their feelings, the past, other people, and other things (cf. Matt. 25:46; Luke 16:19-31; et al.).
In the context, the correct teaching here in this clause means the dead have no capacity to enjoy life as the living can.

Hi! Prayerfully, and I mean prayerfully, humbly, and meekly consider the following. I might take it one verse at a time to keep things organized.

On Mal 4:1-4, the context of your understanding is that the soul and the body is separate. But they are not separate but are one. Notice the ingredients:

Gen 2:
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The breath of life + dust formed into man = living soul.

When man dies, his breath goes back to God, and he is simply non-existent. His "breath" was not a conscious being before his existence anymore then it is after. Therefore, when Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, indeed we can agree that it is death, not eternal torment.


Now in the verses you supplied, Rev 14:10-11, 20:11-15 do not demonstrate consciousness.

Rev 14:10-11 tells us the smoke of their torment ascend for ever. The term for ever does not necessarily mean with out end. Case and point is found in Exo 21 1-6 where the Hebrew servant is to serve his master for ever. 1 Sam 1:22, 28 Samuel was dedicated to the service of God in the tabernacle and he was to serve before the Lord for ever.

Rev 20:11-15 talks about the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the parallel text for Mal 4:1-4. The second death is exactly what Malachi is referring to when he talks about the earth "burning like an oven"

Fire language definitely bares a connecting with divine anger. Scripture tells us that God is a consuming fire. Due 4:24. The very presence of God is a divine fire. This idea of God as fire is described in Eze 28:14, when Lucifer stood in the presence of God "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. "

In Johns view of the throne room in heaven, he says "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:" Rev 15:2 This is no doubt the reflection of Gods glory seen in the "sea of glass"

The bible tells us no man can be in Gods presence and live. Hence why the fiery judgement delivered is always "eternal fire." What does this all mean?

THE SHOCKING CONCLUSION

WE HAVE IT BACKWARDS!! It is not the wicked that burn forever! It is those, the righteous, that can stand in Gods presence that burn forever!!

Isa 33:14
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;



God bless,

MoG

 

[Glomung]

It never ceases to amaze me how some can so twist and misrepresent the meaning of scripture.
They take the symbolic as literal, fudge word meanings, and generally lie in any way necessary to push an agenda.

Really? The saved "burn forever"? The damned "cease to exist"?

There must be some fun in heresy, otherwise so many wouldn't be doing it.

 

[Man-ofGod]

It never ceases to amaze me how some can so twist and misrepresent the meaning of scripture.
They take the symbolic as literal, fudge word meanings, and generally lie in any way necessary to push an agenda.

Really? The saved "burn forever"? The damned "cease to exist"?

There must be some fun in heresy, otherwise so many wouldn't be doing it.

It is not enough to say that a thing is heresy, in order to controvert it. Some things may seem heresy to one person which appear very reasonable to another. Paul says that the preaching of the cross is to some people foolishness, or absurd, and I have often heard people
ridicule the idea that the death of one person could atone for the sins of another. They call such an idea absurd, yet to you and me it is perfectly consistent with reason.

In each instance, I have cited clear bible text as proof. My doctrine is complete with no contradictions, I am at peace with all of scripture..and until I can see a a real roadblock in my theology, I have no reason to abandon the thought.

 

[Major]

It never ceases to amaze me how some can so twist and misrepresent the meaning of scripture.
They take the symbolic as literal, fudge word meanings, and generally lie in any way necessary to push an agenda.

Really? The saved "burn forever"? The damned "cease to exist"?

There must be some fun in heresy, otherwise so many wouldn't be doing it.

Amen brother!

 

[Major]

It is not enough to say that a thing is heresy, in order to controvert it. Some things may seem heresy to one person which appear very reasonable to another. Paul says that the preaching of the cross is to some people foolishness, or absurd, and I have often heard people
ridicule the idea that the death of one person could atone for the sins of another. They call such an idea absurd, yet to you and me it is perfectly consistent with reason.

In each instance, I have cited clear bible text as proof. My doctrine is complete with no contradictions, I am at peace with all of scripture..and until I can see a a real roadblock in my theology, I have no reason to abandon the thought.

Well, all I can say is that I gave you the understanding of the verses YOU posted. I have to disagree with your theology.