Understood
Poll on hell
- Thread starter KingJ
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Understood
On a final note, "Annihilation" protects again a lot of heresy found in spiritualism that has found its way into many churches. For example, there is no talking to the dead, no dead "relatives" appearing at the seance your not suppose to go to. Instead you understand that your loved ones are asleep in the dust, and that these "relatives" are devils working miracles.
Furthermore, ideas like the Resurrection makes sense, where if you believe the traditional thought, it really becomes more of an unnecessary mystery.
Furthermore, ideas like the Resurrection makes sense, where if you believe the traditional thought, it really becomes more of an unnecessary mystery.
Of course I believe in the supremacy of Gods laws over men's. I do not agree with you on what God's laws are, nor do I think it is particularly useful to think of them as physical but spiritual laws.Respectfully, this argument resembles another one made long ago:
Matt 15:
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Don't get mad at me.. Jesus said it not me
I personally think an eternity of torment is much more merciful than being annihilated. But thank God we don't have to suffer that torment, he has bought us with the blood of his son.
This really doesn't make sense. Eternal misery is more merciful than putting someone out of their misery?
Would God be a just judge if he simply made the guilty non-existent? No, the guilty deserve their punishment, and unfortunately, it's eternal. But that is the price we pay for rejecting Christ.
You think somehow torment, a form of existence, is worse than non-existence. I disagree, because non-existence is the very opposite of existence. At least in eternal torment you exist. Those who are sent to hell must simply embrace their punishment for eternity, which they no doubt will.
If God made the guilty non-existent, then that would basically be him making something then unmaking something as if it was a mistake. That can't happen, because whatever God makes is for his good purposes.
Feel free to disagree, I am throwing some ideas out there.
This is true. We can disagree and still be friends on this subject. All the options in the OP have supporting scripture. But, the real question is how we justify that belief to ourselves.
As Christians we should grasp God's love Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ...and look at the unknown in light of the fact that His love is great / mostly beyond our grasp.
Our belief has to pass a test of impeccable logic in light of God's love.
Impeccable logic = Annihilation > Eternal torture.
Impeccable logic = Isolation > Annihilation.
Impeccable logic = Eternal torture and annihilation is not loving our enemies.
Impeccable logic = God does not make mistakes
Impeccable logic = John 3:19 = There are people that hate God and will not ever change.
So how does a God whose love is so great, punish His enemies? Even though there is scripture on hell, we need to look at it all in light of who God is.
I want to propose that you try imagine the best place for a paedophile and then make it a million times better. Then you will grasp what God has in store for them.
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This is such a hot subject though. I don't think its possible to completely avoid. I don't really feel like discussing anything else these last few weeks with my family and friends.
KJ...you said...........
"So how does a God whose love is so great, punish His enemies? Even though there is scripture on hell, we need to look at it all in light of who God is."
May I propose to you that He does it because He is JUST. We just can not ignore or remove the Bible verses in Luke 16 and pretend that they do not exist. We can not excuse them away because we want to think that they are a "parable".
Even if they are parables....does that remove the fact that they are there and real????
IF we can remove Luke 16 from the Bible or explain it away......could we not then do the same thing with the Resurrection of Jesus????
Listen, you really do not think that Jesus, man rose from the dead do you? Didn't you hear about the story (Parable) that the disciples came during the night and took His body and buried it????
If we can do it for one section of Scripture, what prevents the skeptics and non believers from making up their own explanation of the cross.
I encourage you to give this a lot more thought and prayer....please!
THINK about down the road of time. IF we as Christians can ignore parts of Scripture today, how long will it take the A/C to remove Jesus from the cross and place himself on it after he comes to power?????
Good question and your absolutely right about impeccable logic. In regards to love, this how i reason scripture in regards to annihilation and love. First we know God is love and the basis of his government is love. Scripture says this:
Mark 12:30-31
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Matt 5:43:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
He also says:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So God loves the world, which composes of both wicked and righteous.
If God loves all, why does God destroy the wicked (Annihilation)?
Eze 33:11
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
So we know God does not enjoy this process. This implies that this is something God must do. Something contrary to His character. Which is why eternal torment is illogical. God would have to work a miracle to keep the soul alive so that he could be tormented forever. What is even more unfair, every sinner bares the same torture as Satan. Yet God is supposed to be just?
But God is fair and a God of justice, as is evident in Matt 7:2.But my belief is that everyone gets what they deserve and receives nothing more or less.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
So Satan will burn the longest but will be destroyed (Eze 28:18). The wicked will also be rewarded according to their works. The thief will get the punishment due to a thief and the genocidal maniacs will receive the punishment according to His works.
Why do the wicked need to be destroyed?
The following quote positions it in the best possible light IMHO:
The sinner could not be happy in God’s presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there—every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love—would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place oftorture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy.
It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them
It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them
God Bless,
MoG
I am not disagreeing with you Major. Not taking Luke 16 literal is neither here nor there (though I agree its literal) as there is scripture like Matt 13:42, Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43, Jude 1:7, 2 Thess 1:9 and Rev 20:10.
All I am proposing is that we 'zoom out' a bit and look at all scripture together before we conclude that hell is eternal torture or annihilation.
You say it is 'just', but please lets just face the fact that eternal torture is simply not just to our mind. So if scripture suggests it....we must be missing something. Kind of like Calvinism on Rom 9.
Major put it like this. If you go to hell. I WILL visit you DAILY with candy and fresh fruit. I will NOT serve a God that stops me. It is kinda of silly for me to state that considering He changed my heart to care about you / my enemies in the first place.
We do well to not ignore Luke 16! But lets also not ignore Matt 5:44. Let's not conclude that God is evil on the unknown future when past and present point to a good God.
Eternal torture or annihilation is what I imagine the devil doing to us. Not God. Can we all just be honest and face that reality?
Hell is one of those subjects that we really need to try grasp what we are not reading. To a sinner who is having a great time in his sin, God / scripture would describe that person as a lost soul, wondering in darkness, full of death, living in inner torment with no inner peace. God describes things from His vantage point. Kind of like a rich man looking at a poor man and wondering how in the universe that poor man survives / lives with nothing. Yet the poor man has learnt to and chooses to live like that.
Eze 33:11 and Eze 28:18-19 do make a strong case for annihilation.
It makes no sense to me to keep someone alive for a period of torture and then death though. I fail to see how that is judged according to works as death penalty = death penalty.
What is interesting is how Eze 28:18 starts with the 'By the multitude of your iniquities' then with 'therefore I have brought fire' that will result in ''thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more''. Loosely translated it could also just mean the devil is stripped of his power. All the angels that knew him (we don't really know him) will be shocked to see that. It must / could be a real dishonor. He will cease to exist as a 'great angel'. This would make sense in the greater scheme of things as powerful angels in hell would always torture and torment humans.
This makes perfect sense. A paedophile will never be happy being around kids he can't hurt. So we send him to Hanoi. We don't put animals and kids with him. But he can live on with science, unsaved friends and family for all eternity.
You / we need to try grasp that there are billions of unsaved people and angels that do not want to serve God but that also do not deserve the death penalty. The devil does because of his sins. Their volume and extremity point to the harshest punishment due. He is probably the 'only one' that deserves annihilation.
Would you give a thief 5 years in maximum security, a murderer 25 years and then both the electric chair?
Interesting thought. The only reason I cannot end the thought there is because it says "it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Eze 28:18 This bares a remarkable resemblance to the destruction of the wicked found in Mal 4:1, 3 "3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
In regards to Satans honor, I believe he lost his honor when he was cast out of his position in heaven (Rev 12:7-9).
Great points.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Rom 5:12
Death is the inherited condition of sin. It is a reality, not an arbitrary decision.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4.
Then we find,
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isa 59: 1, 2
The question is, if in Jesus is life or the source of life, what happens when you become separated from the source of life? Death is the only result.
God Bless,
MoG
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All I will say is this. God's justice will be done, and evil will receive it's full punishment, whether it's finite or eternal you have to figure out.
As for those in Christ, we have received his mercy and everlasting life.
As for those in Christ, we have received his mercy and everlasting life.
Part 2
One last addendum. Would it really be merciful to leave the wicked alive? The reason why Jesus has not come yet is so the universe can see the effects of sin, that the devil is not just, and that sin does not lead to happiness. Therefore, the wicked would not be happy among themselves nor among heavens inhabitants. Death is an act of mercy on Gods part. Everything good comes from above (James 1:17). The wicked are not totally out of control yet simply because Gods love, grace and mercy is still striving with them. The law of God is still in their hearts (conscience) to a degree. But let their heart be hardened 100% then iniquity will abound.
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Well 'to God'' yes. God sees a being in His presence as 'much' better off then a being out of His presence. But God has not dishonored the devil from his vantage point or ours...by a longshot. He was referred to as the great dragon. The 'only' thing God has done is remove him and the other fallen angels from His presence.
You can be forgiven for your belief. But for me, I can't ignore two things on this. 1. Death is referred to as something that can be loved Prov 8:36 and a state of being in sin Col 2:13. 2. A good God gives free will. Serve or literally die is not free will, making God evil. Any reasoning from impeccable logic that paints God as evil is false or God is liar / scripture is false. Psalm 136:1 is crystal clear that the reason we 'give thanks' is because God is good. It does not say He is good and evil, otherwise we would not be advised by David to give thanks. No free will = evil. There is simply no way around that.
It is as though we lose our common sense when reading scripture. I asked you a question above on what you would do. Think about it. Think also about forced marriage. Would you ever say to a woman ''Marry me or die?'' How is this not what you believe? How in the universe is that never not evil?
No offence to you, but you need to believe that the unsaved cannot live happily. As that would justify annihilation. But that requires you to ignore the fact that many unsaved are not that bad. Granted, they have a level of approval of them that are very evil and are still of their father the devil. But....still...not ''that'' bad! How are we much better then them? We sin just like them...the only difference is that we hate the sin Rom 7:15 & Rom 12:9.
You need to consider things like 1. How God spoke to the devil on earth in Matt 4. He gave him the time of day. He was not rude or ugly. Even consider Job. Why is the devil not crying blue murder at God like any person on death row would to their executioner? 2. God allowed the devil to leave heaven with dignity as a great dragon. 3. God promoted the devil with no evil intentions / setting him and the angels up for a fall. Evil thoughts do not exist with God. 4. God loves the devil, the devil hates God. God cannot / does not hate any of His creation, only its actions. 5. What angels will we judge? Those in heaven created above us? I doubt it. Who here will pass a sentence of annihilation or more then an hour of torture on a fallen angel? 6. We will still have free will in heaven. We don't cease being the human race. The reason we will not go to hell when in heaven is not because we will always be on good behavior, it is because for all eternity God will recall the day we gave our lives to Him / repented sincerely. Along the lines of James 5:20 ''doing X covers a multitude of sin''. Now because of that, we need to just appreciate the fact that we all ''just escape'' hell. It could be anyone of us in there. The thought of YOU being there is a reality that you cannot ignore. You do not have to stress as I said to Major, I WILL make sure God does not kill you, nor torture you. God will not listen to me? He listened to Moses and spared those who worshipped the golden calf. Why do we assume the worst about God on the unknown future? We should be assuming the best.
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If we removed ourselves from this earth we would still find some who murder and some who refuse to murder. Some who hurt little children and some who don't. There are levels of wickedness among all the wicked. Just as there are levels among the saved. God used the devil to tempt Job, Adam and Eve, not fallen angel # 55. The devil came to tempt Jesus. The other angels were trying to steer clear of Him.
Rom 2:6 that you quoted says it well. Why not just take that 'as is'?
You said..........."eternal torture is simply not just to our mind.".
Agreed. BUT it is not US that make the rules.
Jesus talked more about eternal torture than He did eternal heaven so if we are going to be honest we have to consider the teaching that He did.
Over the years I have spent a lot of time on this subject. I do not ask anyone to believe me or agree with me and I do not do this for that purpose.
I disagree with people all the time when what they propose is not Biblical so if anyone disagrees with me that is perfectly fine with me. All I do is put out there what I believe will help people and be a blessing to them.
Having said that, allow me to give you something to give serious thought to.
#1.
Annihilationism ignores the meaning of the words translated "death" and "die" in Scripture. The word translated "death" in the New Testament is never, ever defined as "annihilation". Can the word translated "death" in Romans 6:23 mean annihilation? Yes, the Greek word thanatos can have that meaning. But among the 119 occurrences of that word in the New Testament, there is not a single case where the meaning of thanatos is clearly and unequivocally stated to be annihilation, or where this meaning can be clearly derived from the context. The same is true of the 121 occurrences of the verb apothnesko, "to die".
Now consider the Substitutionary Nature of Christ's Death!
#2.
Annihilationism denies the substitutionary nature of Christ's death. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ suffered death (thanatos) in the place of believers:
Acts 2:23-24............
"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it."
Romans 5:10...........
"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life".
1 Corth. 11:26.........
"For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes."
Phip. 2:8...............
"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. "
Col. 1:21-22..........
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight."
Heb. 2:9.............
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone".
Heb. 2:14-15..........
"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage".
Please give this comment a lot of thought.......if annihilation is the punishment of the lost, then Jesus' death on the cross would not be a substitutionary death. He was not annihilated by the wildest stretch of the imagination. If annihilation is God's just punishment for sinners, then Jesus Christ did not suffer the punishment that sinners deserve and will receive. On this basis alone, annihilationism is Biblically untenable.
I love you my brother but I can not accept your thinking here.
Your thinking is.......
"we need to try grasp that there are billions of unsaved people and angels that do not want to serve God but that also do not deserve the death penalty."
Psalm 73:18. .......
"Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction."
The wicked lost deserve to be cast into hell so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God's using his power at any moment to destroy them. The justice of God calls out for an eternal punishment of their sins.
As Jonathan Edwards once said......" Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, "Cut it down, why cumbereth it the ground?" Luke 13:7. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God's mere will, that holds it back.
and I give thanks to God everyday for that! Can you imagine some of us being judges with our emotions and desires for vengeance.
It is a just, good, merciful, exceedingly loving and understanding God that makes the rules. So, if we can conclude that the most merciless desires for vengeance would be fulfilled by our enemy getting 25 years for murder...how much more merciful would God be on punishment of suffering specifically?
I want to propose to you Major that God exaggerates hell just like He does ''death''. It is not an exaggeration to Him because He wants to offer us an experience He cannot put in words. He can only describe it as life vs death. Death / hell / fire / lost / darkness / misery / torture / torment / weeping and gnashing of teeth = life as we currently know it.
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