Poll on hell

[DavidG]

It is a just, good, merciful, exceedingly loving and understanding God that makes the rules. So, if we can conclude that the most merciless desires for vengeance would be fulfilled by our enemy getting 25 years for murder...how much more merciful would God be on punishment of suffering specifically?

I'm not very comfortable with comparing a human ethic with a divine one. How a human ought to behave toward one of it's own kind is something we know a lot about and call on personal experience to give us insight. How the Creator is obligated to behave toward the creation is something that we have little if any insight to help us. Forgoing that, I think this is still a broken analogy. It assumes that the murderer once thrown in jail stops his
murdering. If he continued to murder inmates and guards I think it is unlikely even the most merciful person would let him out after 25 years. In human terms, as long as the unregenerate continues to sin he will continue to be punished. Would it be evil, unjust, or unmerciful for God to do the same?
It's often been postulated that eternal torment is inconsistent from a God who also holds the attributes of most good and merciful. But it's a difficult thing to prove as necessarily true in a logical argument.

I want to propose to you Major that God exaggerates hell just like He does ''death''. It is not an exaggeration to Him because He wants to offer us an experience He cannot put in words. He can only describe it as life vs death. Death / hell / fire / lost / darkness / misery / torture / torment / weeping and gnashing of teeth = life as we currently know it.

I get your call to the ineffable. There is a tension in scripture that often arises when God engages in self-description.

I think it's alright to postulate about possible resolutions to hard questions somewhere in the mystery. But when faced with working out our salvation with fear and trembling I would think it's probably most prudent to hang your theology on the concrete parts He has clearly expressed rather than one possible way something that's currently unknown could play out.

For instance, someone from the other side of this discussion could just as easily say that the damned are tortured forever and the bit that satisfies the contention between a good and merciful God and the action of torture is the part could not be put into human words. The mysterious, used as an argument, is an argument for everyone and ends up cancelling itself out.

 

[Major]

and I give thanks to God everyday for that! Can you imagine some of us being judges with our emotions and desires for vengeance.

It is a just, good, merciful, exceedingly loving and understanding God that makes the rules. So, if we can conclude that the most merciless desires for vengeance would be fulfilled by our enemy getting 25 years for murder...how much more merciful would God be on punishment of suffering specifically?

I want to propose to you Major that God exaggerates hell just like He does ''death''. It is not an exaggeration to Him because He wants to offer us an experience He cannot put in words. He can only describe it as life vs death. Death / hell / fire / lost / darkness / misery / torture / torment / weeping and gnashing of teeth = life as we currently know it.

I hear you brother and you maybe correct. However, Romans chapter 12:9 says "Love must be sincere".
Then the next word is "Hate." "Hate what is evil."

For most Christians hate is the last word that would be associated with love. But a love that does not contain hatred of evil is not the love of which the Bible speaks. IMO then it is most fitting therefore that any consideration of God's love should include the same consideration on the wrath of God.

This is necessary, not because we need to balance God's wrath with his love, as rival attributes, but because God's love itself implies his wrath. Without his wrath God is simply not loving in the sense that the Bible portrays his love. That being the case, and I believe that it is, then IMO God has NOT exgerated His wrath or His explination of torments in Hell. But that is just me!

King....I would reccomend finding and reading the sermon given by Jonathan Edwards's ..........
"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

He preached to great effect at Enfield in New England in 1741. In this sermon Edwards is unrestrained in the language that he uses to describe God's wrath.

 

[Major]

I'm not very comfortable with comparing a human ethic with a divine one. How a human ought to behave toward one of it's own kind is something we know a lot about and call on personal experience to give us insight. How the Creator is obligated to behave toward the creation is something that we have little if any insight to help us. Forgoing that, I think this is still a broken analogy. It assumes that the murderer once thrown in jail stops his
murdering. If he continued to murder inmates and guards I think it is unlikely even the most merciful person would let him out after 25 years. In human terms, as long as the unregenerate continues to sin he will continue to be punished. Would it be evil, unjust, or unmerciful for God to do the same?
It's often been postulated that eternal torment is inconsistent from a God who also holds the attributes of most good and merciful. But it's a difficult thing to prove as necessarily true in a logical argument.


I get your call to the ineffable. There is a tension in scripture that often arises when God engages in self-description.

I think it's alright to postulate about possible resolutions to hard questions somewhere in the mystery. But when faced with working out our salvation with fear and trembling I would think it's probably most prudent to hang your theology on the concrete parts He has clearly expressed rather than one possible way something that's currently unknown could play out.

For instance, someone from the other side of this discussion could just as easily say that the damned are tortured forever and the bit that satisfies the contention between a good and merciful God and the action of torture is the part could not be put into human words. The mysterious, used as an argument, is an argument for everyone and ends up cancelling itself out.

Very well said.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Well 'to God'' yes. God sees a being in His presence as 'much' better off then a being out of His presence. But God has not dishonored the devil from his vantage point or ours...by a longshot. He was referred to as the great dragon. The 'only' thing God has done is remove him and the other fallen angels from His presence.

Could it be that the dragon is great because of the greatness of his wickedness, not because of his honor? Perhaps this is why he is called the dragon, serpent, and devil. The word great modifies the title dragon (a dishonorable term). Notice how scripture uses the term great in other verses. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 Great here modifies the term "wickedness of men"

Here is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? Gen 39:9

You can be forgiven for your belief. But for me, I can't ignore two things on this. 1. Death is referred to as something that can be loved Prov 8:36 and a state of being in sin Col 2:13. 2. A good God gives free will. Serve or literally die is not free will, making God evil. Any reasoning from impeccable logic that paints God as evil is false or God is liar / scripture is false. Psalm 136:1 is crystal clear that the reason we 'give thanks' is because God is good. It does not say He is good and evil, otherwise we would not be advised by David to give thanks. No free will = evil. There is simply no way around that.

Impeccable logic can only come from its perfect author, God. With all the respect and sincerity I can muster, your understanding is based on human logic. " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. " Isa 58:8 Free will has never been a choice between good or good, but good or evil, life or death. Evil always leads to death, this is reality. Think of sin like a poison. You can choose to drink poison or you can choose not to not to drink poison. This is the choice Adam and Eve was given in the garden, either eat the tree of life and live, or eat the tree of knowledge of good and evil and die. (Gen 2:17) This is what the Word of God says, so I believe it. Let the word of God be true and every man a liar. (Rom 3:4)

The reason why Eve ate from the tree was for this very thought that you are advocating. She presumed on Gods mercy and loving kindness. Notice the words of the serpent, "Ye shall not surely die:" Gen 3:4, effectually calling God a liar. You need to be very careful here not to duplicate the very sentiments of the devil.

It is as though we lose our common sense when reading scripture. I asked you a question above on what you would do. Think about it. Think also about forced marriage. Would you ever say to a woman ''Marry me or die?'' How is this not what you believe? How in the universe is that never not evil?

This serves as a poor example. Everything God does for our benefit. The appeal from God is "why will you die, O' House of Israel" Again, death is an innate trait of sin. If you sin, you choose separation from God, the source of life. Eve would have died instantly were it not for the plan of redemption. It is for this very reason, that sin brings about death, that Jesus had to die on the cross. He tasted death for every man. (Heb 2:9) We will never understand His sacrifice. But in the idea you are advocating, you are making His infinite sacrifice a small thing. Gods love is revealed at the cross, not in the eternal life of the wicked.

No offence to you, but you need to believe that the unsaved cannot live happily. As that would justify annihilation. But that requires you to ignore the fact that many unsaved are not that bad. Granted, they have a level of approval of them that are very evil and are still of their father the devil. But....still...not ''that'' bad! How are we much better then them? We sin just like them...the only difference is that we hate the sin Rom 7:15 & Rom 12:9.

This argument fails on two points.

1.) The happiness of the wickedness is based on circumstances--which would not be good if everyone is wicked aka selfish. The happiness of the righteousness is internal (aka they are selfless), John 14:27.

2.) Wickedness is progressive and only because of Gods mercy. For proof I cite Gen 6:5, Gen 13:2, and Gen 15:16.

You need to consider things like 1. How God spoke to the devil on earth in Matt 4. He gave him the time of day. He was not rude or ugly. Even consider Job. Why is the devil not crying blue murder at God like any person on death row would to their executioner? 2. God allowed the devil to leave heaven with dignity as a great dragon. 3. God promoted the devil with no evil intentions / setting him and the angels up for a fall. Evil thoughts do not exist with God. 4. God loves the devil, the devil hates God. God cannot / does not hate any of His creation, only its actions. 5. What angels will we judge? Those in heaven created above us? I doubt it. Who here will pass a sentence of annihilation or more then an hour of torture on a fallen angel? 6. We will still have free will in heaven. We don't cease being the human race. The reason we will not go to hell when in heaven is not because we will always be on good behavior, it is because for all eternity God will recall the day we gave our lives to Him / repented sincerely. Along the lines of James 5:20 ''doing X covers a multitude of sin''. Now because of that, we need to just appreciate the fact that we all ''just escape'' hell. It could be anyone of us in there. The thought of YOU being there is a reality that you cannot ignore. You do not have to stress as I said to Major, I WILL make sure God does not kill you, nor torture you. God will not listen to me? He listened to Moses and spared those who worshipped the golden calf. Why do we assume the worst about God on the unknown future? We should be assuming the best.

Gods mercy is found in Jesus. This is the beginning and end of our faith. No where in scripture does it extend beyond him. He is the only way to eternal life.

God Bless,

MoG

 

[Man-ofGod]

Heb. 2:14-15..........
"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage".

Please give this comment a lot of thought.......if annihilation is the punishment of the lost, then Jesus' death on the cross would not be a substitutionary death. He was not annihilated by the wildest stretch of the imagination. If annihilation is God's just punishment for sinners, then Jesus Christ did not suffer the punishment that sinners deserve and will receive. On this basis alone, annihilationism is Biblically untenable.

By your same logic, neither is Jesus suffering eternal torment.

 

[Silk]

I'm not clear exactly what happens ultimately with the unsaved and get no real joy from pondering it. I trust and love whatever God does/will do. It is beyond my ability to comprehend and as impossible as universalism now seems to everyone.

 

[KingJ]

Could it be that the dragon is great because of the greatness of his wickedness, not because of his honor? Perhaps this is why he is called the dragon, serpent, and devil. The word great modifies the title dragon (a dishonorable term). Notice how scripture uses the term great in other verses. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 Great here modifies the term "wickedness of men"

Here is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? Gen 39:9

Impeccable logic can only come from its perfect author, God. With all the respect and sincerity I can muster, your understanding is based on human logic. " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. " Isa 58:8 Free will has never been a choice between good or good, but good or evil, life or death. Evil always leads to death, this is reality. Think of sin like a poison. You can choose to drink poison or you can choose not to not to drink poison. This is the choice Adam and Eve was given in the garden, either eat the tree of life and live, or eat the tree of knowledge of good and evil and die. (Gen 2:17) This is what the Word of God says, so I believe it. Let the word of God be true and every man a liar. (Rom 3:4)

The reason why Eve ate from the tree was for this very thought that you are advocating. She presumed on Gods mercy and loving kindness. Notice the words of the serpent, "Ye shall not surely die:" Gen 3:4, effectually calling God a liar. You need to be very careful here not to duplicate the very sentiments of the devil.

This serves as a poor example. Everything God does for our benefit. The appeal from God is "why will you die, O' House of Israel" Again, death is an innate trait of sin. If you sin, you choose separation from God, the source of life. Eve would have died instantly were it not for the plan of redemption. It is for this very reason, that sin brings about death, that Jesus had to die on the cross. He tasted death for every man. (Heb 2:9) We will never understand His sacrifice. But in the idea you are advocating, you are making His infinite sacrifice a small thing. Gods love is revealed at the cross, not in the eternal life of the wicked.

This argument fails on two points.

1.) The happiness of the wickedness is based on circumstances--which would not be good if everyone is wicked aka selfish. The happiness of the righteousness is internal (aka they are selfless), John 14:27.

2.) Wickedness is progressive and only because of Gods mercy. For proof I cite Gen 6:5, Gen 13:2, and Gen 15:16.

Gods mercy is found in Jesus. This is the beginning and end of our faith. No where in scripture does it extend beyond him. He is the only way to eternal life.

God Bless,

MoG

You make a strong argument for annihilation. I / we would just be repeating ourselves if we continue discussing the points you made.

I am curious though, with your belief, how do you accept the lake of fire burning for eternity? Rev 20:10.

 

[Man-ofGod]

You make a strong argument for annihilation. I / we would just be repeating ourselves if we continue discussing the points you made.

I am curious though, with your belief, how do you accept the lake of fire burning for eternity? Rev 20:10.

Blessed are you my brother. "The meek shall inherit the earth"

Establishing doctrine is like setting up a fence. Each text you come across is a post to the completion of the fence . But if you have a post that seemingly looks out of place, it is usually because our understanding of where to put it is in error, not the fence already thus built so far. Therefore, how can we reconcile Rev 20:10?

"For ever" does not necessarily mean eternity. For proof consider Hanna's dedication fo Samuel to the service of the tabernacle,

1 Sam 1:22:
ut Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.

Of course we know that Samuel is still not in the tabernacle serving but is passed.

Or consider Jonah 2:6 in which Jonah describes his experience in the whale:

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

.

Clearly we know Jonah is still not in the depths of the sea w/ in a whales belly. So what is Rev 20:10 talking about? It is discussing the period of torture that exist up until the time it ceases,which is when the wicked are finally consumed and become ashes. The whole earth will burn like an oven (Mal 4:1) and the earth will be the lake of fire.


God Bless,
MoG

 

[Silk]

By your same logic, neither is Jesus suffering eternal torment.

Say what? Clearly, I have missed something in both chains of logic.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Say what? Clearly, I have missed something in both chains of logic.

Majors argument is that Jesus could not have suffered the penalty for us all by way of Annihilation because He (Jesus) is alive and is in heaven even to this day, yet annihilation says that the wicked are destroyed eternally. I retorted that if you believe in eternal torment, that same logic applies. If the second death = eternal torment, well Jesus is not suffering eternal torment but is in heaven and stands at the right hand of the Father. By this logic, both ideas seemingly fail.

But I would argue that this is an argument for Annihilation and against Eternal Torment. For scripture says,

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Cor 15:54.

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades or grave) and of death. Rev 1:18


This is the miracle that Jesus worked through His life and sacrifice. He experienced the second death for us all, but by the miracle of His word, Jesus was brought fourth again. By faith we believe this and it is counted to us for righteousness.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Silk]

I must be slow this morning. Where do you get that Christ suffered the "second death" for us all? His flesh suffered death by crucifixtion. He was without sin and not wicked - why would He be in line for annihilation? Unless I missed it - no second death has taken place for anyone as of yet. His blood washes away sin the sin doesn't stick to Him.

 

[Man-ofGod]

I must be slow this morning. Where do you get that Christ suffered the "second death" for us all? His flesh suffered death by crucifixtion. He was without sin and not wicked - why would He be in line for annihilation? Unless I missed it - no second death has taken place for anyone as of yet. His blood washes away sin the sin doesn't stick to Him.

No man has experienced the second death. Only Jesus. This is my belief.

Jesus died not only the physical death, which is temporary until resurrection, but He also "tasted death" for everyone (Hebrews 2:9). Jesus paid the "penalty death," which is total separation from God.

The first, physical death is not separation. It is a sleep; it is the second one that Jesus dreaded. It was during the second death that He felt "forsaken" by God the Father, but He endured for our sakes.

There is no text in the Bible that directly says, "Jesus died the second death." God requires a thoughtful study of what the first and second deaths spoken of in the Bible mean, and which death the breaking of the law required, and whether Jesus, as the sacrifice for sin, died the first or the second death to satisfy the legal demands of the broken law of God's Kingdom. There is only one conclusion.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Silk]

Jesus saves us from the first death - that of the body. Unless I am reading Revelation wrong, The second death is judged by Christ after the 1,000 year millenial kingdom. Unsurprisingly, Satan is set free after the 1,000 years for one more lap. As time as we know it does not function at all the same as here so I have no comprehension how that works for believers. When Christ says the fellow crucified next to Him will be in Heaven that night, I'm gonna go with I dunno how it works time wise

 

[Man-ofGod]

Jesus saves us from the first death - that of the body. Unless I am reading Revelation wrong, The second death is judged by Christ after the 1,000 year millenial kingdom. Unsurprisingly, Satan is set free after the 1,000 years for one more lap. As time as we know it does not function at all the same as here so I have no comprehension how that works for believers. When Christ says the fellow crucified next to Him will be in Heaven that night, I'm gonna go with I dunno how it works time wise

Here is how I reason it, the wages of sin, the penalty for sin is executed at the second death. As you said, the first death is not the judgement, the second death is. Jesus received the judgement that we deserve. This judgement can and is only administered after the manner of the second death. Jesus received this in his final hours, at the cross.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Silk]

I hear what you are saying and I'm pondering it. My knee jerk instinct is to disagree. I tell you why once I've thought more.

 

[Man-ofGod]

I hear what you are saying and I'm pondering it. My knee jerk instinct is to disagree. I tell you why once I've thought more.

While you ponder, remember that:

1.)Sins separates man from God (Isa 59:2)

2.) God is the source of life (John 1:4)

3.) Jesus made to be sin for us (2 Cor 5:21) (edited.. thx Silk)

4.) This was done because God laid the iniquity of us all on Jesus (Isa 53:6)

5.) This transferring of sin was typified in the Hebrew services of sacrifice and offerings (Lev 4:29)

6.) This actual process of God laying the inquity of us all onto Jesus begins at Gethsemane (Matt 26:38)

7.) Jesus acknowledges the separation (Matt 27:46)

8.) The Separation is more then He can bare, and dies (John 19:30)

9.) The spikes on the cross do not kill Jesus, but Jesus dies from a broken heart (John 19:34)

10.) Jesus experiences eternal separation from the father.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Silk]

Jesus did not become sin. He cleanses sin. Christ is NOT separate from God. Still thinking but I assumed some of your thinking from your previous post.

 

[Silk]

Sin is a by product of the wrong choice in free will . So God can't disobey Himself.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Jesus did not become sin. He cleanses sin. Christ is NOT separate from God. Still thinking but I assumed some of your thinking from your previous post.

Not separate anymore, praise the Lord.

2 cor 5:21 " 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. " Do not confuse this with the idea that Jesus sinned. He did not. He was made sin for us, per the written word.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[calvin]

As I see it the second death can not occur until there has been a first death. Jesus on the cross when He cried out 'my God my God why have you forsaken me' was still alive. That surely could not be His experiencing the second death before the first one.