Regeneration Precedes Faith?

Here it is in a simpler translation:



So Major, this is beyond the Jubilee time. So to you think this means eternally or until the slave dies?

It seems to me that the verse you posted is self explainitory, when taken literally, isn't it ?

To respond to the Exodus verses, the personal rights of the Hebrew salves are in view and it is for their protection.
The slave was not the pertetual property of his master and would be freed after six years so we have no disagreement there.

Now, if said slave through circustances made him "Desire" to stay with his owner, he pledged that by having an awl, a sharp piercing tool places through his ear. That was the signal of his obedience to that house hold for the rest of his life.

Those actions are of course obviousely literal.
 
Ummmm....do you read my posts??
You just "elaborated" on what I just said....the literal "for ever"is not eternal, NOR until the end of the Jubilee (as you suggested earlier here:

don't let Silk catch ya quibbling! :LOL: )....You had a mistake. I guess I must accept your "Agreed" for a retraction.No biggie.

Right, no biggee, and it was not a mistake and not a retraction.
 
No thanks...I'm planning on posting on the Revelation in one spot. It's tough enough to following meandering threads as it is. Pass.

It is just that you had no problem on this this thread speaking to speaking "for ever" not being eternal and this thread is about regereration coming before faith.

Ummmm
 
??? Doesn't conversion imply someone who knows not the true Gospel? Lot's of folks know the Gospel story, but not the Gospel reality involving them. I'm confused about your theology: You expect a revival in the "Tribulation"? Folks will convert due to fear, oppression and lack of food and water??
There will definitely be a revival in the tribulation. Does anyone doubt the salvation of those who defied Nero? Nobody will die for a God they don't accept. Especially when the alternative is so tempting. I am pretty sure that everyone who rejects the mark of the beast will be saved. There are many that are just putting the decision off. Their time simply runs out in the tribulation. It is the same for someone with cancer who finds out they have a few months to live. Surely they can be saved in those months?

Even with the absence of the Holy Spirit people can come to God. The requirements to come to God have not changed since the beginning of time. Just in our dispensation if you get on your knees you find Jesus via the Holy Spirit.
 
Back on topic....I see Paul explaining that the way and offering of salvation through the Blood of Christ was the "predestined before the foundation of the world", not the individual yet unborn person specifically (Sam Jones, Dagmar Johanssen, Ting Sue Ping)....The Church (meaning the redeemed) was the chosen recipients, consisting of "whosoever will", not the hard-shell Calvinist idea of those created to live and those created to die

The Jews had no concept of this Way by the time of Christ's Incarnation. They had become so ritualistic, so legalistic and so literalistic that could not recognize the Messiah when He was right in front of Him.
Before I put my foot in too far :cautious:. Are you saying God did not reach out to all in the OT?
 
Bone up on 2000 years of Jewish history and you will find fear, oppression, genocide and banishment a lousy method for anyone to become true Christians (plenty of fake ones, however). Now if you think that anyone can truly gain a new heart WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, I'm sorry ...you will have to prove that to me directly from Scripture....not a dispensationalist theory cobbled together, please.
I certainly hope we are 'just missing' each other on this. o_O

The requirements to come to God have never changed. They are the same before the cross, after the cross and will be the same in the tribulation. In our dispensation if you look for God you find Jesus, because the Holy Spirit is here to reveal Him as Lord.

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. James 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?. Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Romans 10:17 faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Jude 1:5:8 8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

I don't understand your pairing of the martyrs (already Christians) with Jews that will convert due to fear
You are not thinking it through. Would you say that if an non-Christian was willing to give his life for Jesus he would not be saved?

Those living in the tribulation have heard the gospel. They have just been sleeping. When crunch time comes. If anyone is willing to endure suffering and death for rejecting the anti-christ, I will bet a million dollars on seeing them in heaven! All the scriptures above confirm it. Are they not doing the same thing as the rich young man in Matt 19?
 
No....What you say above looks very contradictorily from what you said earlier: When do you suggest this "absence" then? Then you say : So this sounds like you are saying before the cross (the "other dispensation") there was no added advantage of the Spirit.
Rusty, I don't know how you are getting confused ;) . The Holy Spirit is here now. He was not here prior and will not be here for the tribulation. You believe otherwise?

It is sounding to me like you believe God had no plan for the gentiles living in the OT, when you say
How can you get that from what I wrote?? No of course not.
but then say
If God had not reached out to the Jews (so they could in turn reach out to the Gentiles
What of those prior to Abraham? What of those who never heard the laws of the Jews?
 
There will definitely be a revival in the tribulation. Does anyone doubt the salvation of those who defied Nero? Nobody will die for a God they don't accept. Especially when the alternative is so tempting. I am pretty sure that everyone who rejects the mark of the beast will be saved. There are many that are just putting the decision off. Their time simply runs out in the tribulation. It is the same for someone with cancer who finds out they have a few months to live. Surely they can be saved in those months?

Even with the absence of the Holy Spirit people can come to God. The requirements to come to God have not changed since the beginning of time. Just in our dispensation if you get on your knees you find Jesus via the Holy Spirit.

You are correct King. There will be a revival.

Revelation 7:4
"A I heard the number of them which were sealed and there were sealed an hundred and forth and four thousand of all the Tribes of the children of Israel".

That is the Jews. 144,000 Jewish, virgin men. It is or it isn't true according to what is written.

Rev. 7:9
"After this I beheld and lo, great MULTITUDE which no man could number of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and before the Lamb clothed with white robes and palms in their hands".

That is real people who come to Christ. It is or it isn't true according to what is written.

King.........also remember that coming to Christ during the Tribulation will be a great deal harder than today. In fact, there will be an element added to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In believing upon Christ and accepting Him, those saved will be giving up their lives. They will also have to refuse the Mark Of The Beast.
 
''In our dispenstation we have an added advantage of the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus as Lord to us and His presence with for support and teaching.''
So this sounds like you are saying before the cross (the "other dispensation") there was no added advantage of the Spirit.
Please note that I was not finished checking my post when you replied. The Holy Spirit's presence does not give us an 'advantage'.
 
Were those in Abraham's bosom born again? The Holy spirit came to earth when Jesus left. He told His disciples He will send the comforter. English comprehension tells me for Him to be sent, He must not have been here. The Holy Spirit literally came to earth. When I read the OT I see it as 'the spirit of the Lord' as God (who is spirit too) reaching out to all. You see this as the Holy Spirit. This is not a major disagreement as they both God (y).

Think about this though, did anyone before the cross speak in tongues? operate in gifts of the spirit? Samson had power from God. Moses, God literally helped and maybe his staff had power? :confused:. Christians today have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Can feel God's presence at a deeper level. Those in the OT couldn't. We do not have our own power.

The prophecy in Isaiah 6, Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I then saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple. Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphs; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. Isa 6:3 And one cried to another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of Hosts; the whole earth full of His glory. Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me! Isa 6:9 And He said, Go, and tell this people, You hear indeed, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know. Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn back, and be healed.

....was fulfilled in the NT Matt 13:13-15, John 12:37-41. We need the Holy Spirit to grasp the mysteries Jesus spoke. To know that Jesus is Lord. Before the cross Jesus and the Holy Spirit were never / nor dealt with u. In the OT you
 
Now this is even more disturbing! The Spirit gives no advantage? Well that dumps~~~
I am not following you here :confused:? advantage once saved in that we can know the heart of God better? or advantage in accepting God as opposed to who? heathens who don't have the advantage of the spirit of God reaching out? Jews only?
 
....was fulfilled in the NT Matt 13:13-15, John 12:37-41. We need the Holy Spirit to grasp the mysteries Jesus spoke. To know that Jesus is Lord. Before the cross Jesus and the Holy Spirit were never / nor dealt with u. In the OT you
Lol, I am too slow in editing.

Before the cross Jesus and the Holy Spirit never came down as 'seperate' entities to God. There was no need. People in the OT could pray to the spirit of God. In the NT we cannot pray to the Holy Spirit.
 
I would know more of the Holy Spirit (I grew up calling "it" the Holy Ghost). On the one hand, if you believe that God is before time/universe began then the Holy Spirit has to have also been there, as a "part" of God, as is true for Jesus. But the concept of the Holy Spirit is never clarified before Jesus. Methinks the gift of spirit was seen before the NT - Adam spoke with and undertood animals (for instance). Only in Jesus were all the gifts of the spirit realized. I have (I think) felt the spirit - mostly when I am talking to someone and I am filled with a feeling of clarity, understanding, joy as if a thirst has been sated. But I confess - I am really not clear on the Holy Spirit or what it represents other than God's grace.
 
How do you reckon on that idea...Bible verse please.
We know God is spirit, hence it is easy to confuse God's spirit with the ''Holy Spirit''. Do you believe in the trinity? I have shown you Isaiah 6 where the person of the Holy Spirit is identified. I have told you that Jesus mentioned an individual. He did not say God's spirit nor God the Father. He referred to a seperate being that will come down.

Before I put more effort into finding scripture, I would like to know if you think it is acceptable to worship the Holy Spirit? I am sure it was fine to worship the spirit of God in the OT as if it was the ''Holy Spirit' there was never a clear distinction of Him being a seperate being made, as is not the case in the NT.

You have yet to respond to my argument of logic in post # 82 and # 83.

Do you believe that Christ was in world in the OT days?
No I don't, do you?
 
I would know more of the Holy Spirit (I grew up calling "it" the Holy Ghost). On the one hand, if you believe that God is before time/universe began then the Holy Spirit has to have also been there, as a "part" of God, as is true for Jesus. But the concept of the Holy Spirit is never clarified before Jesus. Methinks the gift of spirit was seen before the NT - Adam spoke with and undertood animals (for instance). Only in Jesus were all the gifts of the spirit realized. I have (I think) felt the spirit - mostly when I am talking to someone and I am filled with a feeling of clarity, understanding, joy as if a thirst has been sated. But I confess - I am really not clear on the Holy Spirit or what it represents other than God's grace.
You know you have heard / being touched by the Holy Spirit if you can say with confidence that Jesus is Lord. 1 Cor 12:3

It is not a major issue. I guess it all depends on how literal we all take the trinity. Jesus is God. Many literally say God died on the cross. This is a difficult subject. I don't see any need to be pedantic on it though as they are all one ultimately.

The only shaky ground is if we worship the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear that He has come to teach us of Jesus. Have you ever heard someone end a prayer with 'in the Holy Spirits name'? 'Gods name' or 'in Jesus's name' sounds perfectly fine.
 
Well, King J says: The only shaky ground is if we worship the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear that He has come to teach us of Jesus. Have you ever heard someone end a prayer with 'in the Holy Spirits name'? 'Gods name' or 'in Jesus's name' sounds perfectly fine

that is confusing, because the trinity actually means God, the Father, Jesus, the son, and the Holy Spirit are all one. So we Christians actually do worship the Holy Spirit - don't we? I think Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to teach us of God. (our way back to him-salvation.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative - the Holy Spirit (who I think of as female) has always been to me a harder concept for me to understand. I say Christ is Lord, and yet am still unclear about the Holy Ghost and am open to learning more about it.
 
We know God is spirit, hence it is easy to confuse God's spirit with the ''Holy Spirit''. Do you believe in the trinity? I have shown you Isaiah 6 where the person of the Holy Spirit is identified. I have told you that Jesus mentioned an individual. He did not say God's spirit nor God the Father. He referred to a seperate being that will come down.

Before I put more effort into finding scripture, I would like to know if you think it is acceptable to worship the Holy Spirit? I am sure it was fine to worship the spirit of God in the OT as if it was the ''Holy Spirit' there was never a clear distinction of Him being a seperate being made, as is not the case in the NT.

You have yet to respond to my argument of logic in post # 82 and # 83.

No I don't, do you?

KingJ..........Consider ..............

Exodus 3:1-7
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;"

Who is this???

May I say to you that IMO this is the Pre-incarnant Christ.

This is the 1st time that the phrase "The angle of the Lord" appears in the Scrptures. That means it falls under the doctinal teaching of something called "The Law of First Mention".

That means because the fact has been established that this is the Lord speaking out of the bush, from this point on in the Scriptures the phrase "Angel of the Lord " refers to the pre-incarnant Christ.

What does that mean?

It means that Rusty's question of..........Do you believe that Christ was in world in the OT days.....................

Has to be YES!
 
Well, King J says: The only shaky ground is if we worship the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear that He has come to teach us of Jesus. Have you ever heard someone end a prayer with 'in the Holy Spirits name'? 'Gods name' or 'in Jesus's name' sounds perfectly fine

that is confusing, because the trinity actually means God, the Father, Jesus, the son, and the Holy Spirit are all one. So we Christians actually do worship the Holy Spirit - don't we? I think Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to teach us of God. (our way back to him-salvation.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative - the Holy Spirit (who I think of as female) has always been to me a harder concept for me to understand. I say Christ is Lord, and yet am still unclear about the Holy Ghost and am open to learning more about it.

Now.... where in the Bible do you find a referrance to the Holy Spirit being a female?????
 
You know you have heard / being touched by the Holy Spirit if you can say with confidence that Jesus is Lord. 1 Cor 12:3

It is not a major issue. I guess it all depends on how literal we all take the trinity. Jesus is God. Many literally say God died on the cross. This is a difficult subject. I don't see any need to be pedantic on it though as they are all one ultimately.

The only shaky ground is if we worship the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear that He has come to teach us of Jesus. Have you ever heard someone end a prayer with 'in the Holy Spirits name'? 'Gods name' or 'in Jesus's name' sounds perfectly fine.

King............IMO the shakey ground would be ...........do we worship the Holy Spirit more than we do the Lord Jesus.

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit never speaks of Himself but instead, points everything toward Christ.

JOHN 16:12-15...... NKJ
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
 
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