LOL - that'll teach me not to respond too quickly but where "he" is spoken could also be construed as Christ (who was male)
Regeneration Precedes Faith?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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LOL - that'll teach me not to respond too quickly but where "he" is spoken could also be construed as Christ (who was male)
Fair question.
John 16:7-14
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
Specific names for God in the Bible are all in the masculine gender. God is never given a feminine name, or referred to using feminine pronouns. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine throughout the New Testament.
Thanks for asking Silk.........have a blessed day!
Thanks for asking Silk.........have a blessed day!
Actually, in the context of the verses, Jesus has told His disciples that He is going to go away, and that He will send the Comforter who is the 3rd person of the Trinity.
So the "He" must therefore be the Holy Spirit" who is the Comforter.
Comforter here means...."One just like the original".
That makes sense, Major Comforter here means...."One just like the original".
and I was raised that God was a "he". But I'm not at all sure that God has a gender (puts hands up - I can't help that I say "he" referring to God). In trying to understand more of the Holy Spirit, I just kinda picked up that Christ (male) Holy Spirit (female) represent all of God. But I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of the Holy Spirit is not as clear as some of the other concepts. I'm eager to hear more on this. Honestly not meant as a debate - I would really like to learn more
and I was raised that God was a "he". But I'm not at all sure that God has a gender (puts hands up - I can't help that I say "he" referring to God). In trying to understand more of the Holy Spirit, I just kinda picked up that Christ (male) Holy Spirit (female) represent all of God. But I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of the Holy Spirit is not as clear as some of the other concepts. I'm eager to hear more on this. Honestly not meant as a debate - I would really like to learn more
I will be gald to be your daisey Silk. IMO we are all here to grow in knowledge and faith and love and friendship.
Ask away and I will be honored to speak with you.
I am hoping this won't be too personal, but may I ask how you feel when you experience the Holy Spirit? As I said in post #87 - I feel I have been raised to another "level" where there is clarity, love, comfort, truth -- I could go on. But it is like an "interface" with God and I wonder...
No dear, not at all. I think what you described is excellant.
IMO He also gives us peace and joy and one of the best things is that He helps us to pray effectively.
I would also say that what we get from God is now manifested inus through the Holy Spirit of God.
My opinion also re: the peace and joy. Also freedom, untrammelled by fear. I wish I could say I am in that state all the time, but alas... I appreciate your sharing. I'm a big believer in prayer - seriously. I once knew a woman (catholic) who was a good person but had her flaws. But whatever she prayed for always were answered, literally
I can't say I "feel" the holy spirit when I pray but I do think that the longer you pray (thru the years) the better you get. Perhaps that's just getting better to know what to pray for? My opinion also re: the peace and joy. Also freedom, untrammelled by fear. I wish I could say I am in that state all the time, but alas... I appreciate your sharing. I'm a big believer in prayer - seriously. I once knew a woman (catholic) who was a good person but had her flaws. But whatever she prayed for always were answered, literally
True, but it is also the Holy Spirit teaching you.
ROMANS 8:26 NKJ
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
One weakness of humans, compared to God, is in our limited knowledge. We think we know a lot but the truth is just the opposite. Silk,we do not even know what is happening on the other side of a wall, let alone the other side of the country. We also do not know what people are planning to do, but the Holy Spirit knows everything. And He will help us to pray accurately and effectively. That way we can bypass our minds with their doubt and lack of understanding of what is best, and pray according to the perfect will of God.
JUDE 1:20 NKJ
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Silk..........He also encourages us, and I don't know about you but I always need to be encouraged.
It is difficult to live in a world dominated by Satan.
ROMANS 8:16 NKJ
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
To me that is good news!
Once we are saved and belong to God, the Spirit takes up residence in our hearts forever, sealing us with the confirming, certifying, and assuring pledge of our eternal state as His children.
It is by the help of the Holy Spirit that we are able to pray.
Gal 4:6........KJV
"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Major says: Silk..........He also encourages us, and I don't know about you but I always need to be encouraged.
It is difficult to live in a world dominated by Satan.
As I said before, I'm not as strong on my understanding of The Holy Spirit as I might be (should be?). In asking for your help in this I begin to fill my lapses. It occurs to me (finally) that the Holy Ghost is not just a way to connect to God but also to each other. Because we can all describe how we feel when the spirit descends on us.
It is difficult to live in a world dominated by Satan.
As I said before, I'm not as strong on my understanding of The Holy Spirit as I might be (should be?). In asking for your help in this I begin to fill my lapses. It occurs to me (finally) that the Holy Ghost is not just a way to connect to God but also to each other. Because we can all describe how we feel when the spirit descends on us.
Excellent observation Silk.
1 Corinthians 12:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
Yes, regeneration precedes faith. We are born "dead" in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). The word that Paul used in this verse for "dead" is NEKROS meaning dead in the sense of "unresponsive," a corpse. No stimulii will cause any reaction. Think of Ezekiel and the valley of dead bones in Ezk. 37. We are also blind to the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3-4) and deaf to it also (John 8:43, 47). Only those who have been elected to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48). So, R.C. Sproul is quite right that regeneration precedes faith in the logical order of salvation. This entire matter is known as the ORITUS SALUTIS (the order of salvation).
I did read them, and forty years ago, I would have agreed with. I find their exegesis faulty and the presupposition off base. But you are certainly correct that is my opinion.
I was posting my opinion. I do happen to agree with Sproul on this particular issue, and while I respect much of his work, I do disagree with him on several other points. But the issue that you raised is, in my opinion, a very good and fascinating theological question that ought to be discussed. If man is born blind to the gospel, unable to hear the gospel, and totally unresponsive to the gospel, how could faith precede regeneration?
I can agree with your opinion
. Vs 4 makes it clear that it is not just an angel.Rusty, you are have been rusty to me in your posts here. This is not like, you
, is everything fine?I would have liked you to better explain your statement ''no one ever is born again without the Spirit's presence...or can you show me Scripture that says otherwise?'' after I gave you plenty scripture explaining the requirements to come to God in the OT. It does baffle me. But no stress if you want out.
RUSTY: I think you confuse utter blindness to unwillingness.
JW: If it was just "blindness," I think your point would well taken. But it is also spiritual "deadness." Eph. 2:1 Paul uses NEKROS "Dead" in trespasses and sin. The Greek word means "corpse" unresponsiveness. Kick a corpse and there will be no reaction, very similar to Ezekiel's Valley of dead bones. It was the Spirit of the Lord that brought those dead, dry, parched bones to life using the preaching of Ezkiel. When Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the fact that He was the bread of life, He made this statement, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him...." The Greek word for "can" has the connotation of ability. He says, you don't have the ability to come to Me. The word for "draws" is a very strong word HELKUO which means to draw by force or drag. It is used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 54:13 and in James 2:6 meaning to drag into court. Kittle, the Greek scholar, renders it "To compel by irresistable authority."
JW: If it was just "blindness," I think your point would well taken. But it is also spiritual "deadness." Eph. 2:1 Paul uses NEKROS "Dead" in trespasses and sin. The Greek word means "corpse" unresponsiveness. Kick a corpse and there will be no reaction, very similar to Ezekiel's Valley of dead bones. It was the Spirit of the Lord that brought those dead, dry, parched bones to life using the preaching of Ezkiel. When Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the fact that He was the bread of life, He made this statement, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him...." The Greek word for "can" has the connotation of ability. He says, you don't have the ability to come to Me. The word for "draws" is a very strong word HELKUO which means to draw by force or drag. It is used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 54:13 and in James 2:6 meaning to drag into court. Kittle, the Greek scholar, renders it "To compel by irresistable authority."
RUSTY: This is done by wooing, and not by Calvinistic "force".
JACK: Then explain the very forceful word used in John 6:44. HELKUO can't be rendered "wooing" by any stretch of the imagination. And also explain how you can "woo" a corpse back to life.
RUSTY: To woo a person requires one to be woo-able. I think every person ever born had that capacity, and was convicted thousands of times before their deaths to "Come unto Me!" Must harden their hearts themselves.
JACK: No one denies the general call of God as Ezekiel gave to the Valley of Dry bones. But his preaching alone didn't cause life to come to the bones. We are to give forth the gospel to all the world.
RUSTY: The idea that God creates people He purposely intends to burn is mad, IMO.
JACK: He created all people to glorify Him (Isa. 43:7). Obviously, not all choose to do that and end up in hell by their own sin and their own refusal to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
RUSTY: Did you force your wife to marry you, even when you both knew "you were made for me"? I hope not.
JACK: Of course not, but I didn't marry a corpse either. BTW yesterday was our wedding anniversary.
RUSTY: The grain of faith that Christ comments so many times with His encounters with unusual candidates (Roman officers, a pagan lady in Lebanon, the lady who touch His hem) is what all saved people start out with...then that faith grows as trust and regeneration blossoms.
JACK: Really? And just where is the scripture that talks about "a grain of faith"? And if that is accurate, why in the world would Jesus say, "You have no ability to come unto me...." (Jn. 6:44). Incidentally, I know you and I disagree on this point, but thank you for your politeness and isn't this fun?
JACK: Then explain the very forceful word used in John 6:44. HELKUO can't be rendered "wooing" by any stretch of the imagination. And also explain how you can "woo" a corpse back to life.
RUSTY: To woo a person requires one to be woo-able. I think every person ever born had that capacity, and was convicted thousands of times before their deaths to "Come unto Me!" Must harden their hearts themselves.
JACK: No one denies the general call of God as Ezekiel gave to the Valley of Dry bones. But his preaching alone didn't cause life to come to the bones. We are to give forth the gospel to all the world.
RUSTY: The idea that God creates people He purposely intends to burn is mad, IMO.
JACK: He created all people to glorify Him (Isa. 43:7). Obviously, not all choose to do that and end up in hell by their own sin and their own refusal to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
RUSTY: Did you force your wife to marry you, even when you both knew "you were made for me"? I hope not.
JACK: Of course not, but I didn't marry a corpse either. BTW yesterday was our wedding anniversary.
RUSTY: The grain of faith that Christ comments so many times with His encounters with unusual candidates (Roman officers, a pagan lady in Lebanon, the lady who touch His hem) is what all saved people start out with...then that faith grows as trust and regeneration blossoms.
JACK: Really? And just where is the scripture that talks about "a grain of faith"? And if that is accurate, why in the world would Jesus say, "You have no ability to come unto me...." (Jn. 6:44). Incidentally, I know you and I disagree on this point, but thank you for your politeness and isn't this fun?