Regeneration Precedes Faith?

RUSTY: This is done by wooing, and not by Calvinistic "force".

JACK: Then explain the very forceful word used in John 6:44. HELKUO can't be rendered "wooing" by any stretch of the imagination. And also explain how you can "woo" a corpse back to life.

RUSTY: To woo a person requires one to be woo-able. I think every person ever born had that capacity, and was convicted thousands of times before their deaths to "Come unto Me!" Must harden their hearts themselves.

JACK: No one denies the general call of God as Ezekiel gave to the Valley of Dry bones. But his preaching alone didn't cause life to come to the bones. We are to give forth the gospel to all the world.

RUSTY: The idea that God creates people He purposely intends to burn is mad, IMO.

JACK: He created all people to glorify Him (Isa. 43:7). Obviously, not all choose to do that and end up in hell by their own sin and their own refusal to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

RUSTY: Did you force your wife to marry you, even when you both knew "you were made for me"? I hope not.

JACK: Of course not, but I didn't marry a corpse either. BTW yesterday was our wedding anniversary.

RUSTY: The grain of faith that Christ comments so many times with His encounters with unusual candidates (Roman officers, a pagan lady in Lebanon, the lady who touch His hem) is what all saved people start out with...then that faith grows as trust and regeneration blossoms.

JACK: Really? And just where is the scripture that talks about "a grain of faith"? And if that is accurate, why in the world would Jesus say, "You have no ability to come unto me...." (Jn. 6:44). Incidentally, I know you and I disagree on this point, but thank you for your politeness and isn't this fun?
 
RUSTY: This is done by wooing, and not by Calvinistic "force".

JACK: Then explain the very forceful word used in John 6:44. HELKUO can't be rendered "wooing" by any stretch of the imagination. And also explain how you can "woo" a corpse back to life.

RUSTY: To woo a person requires one to be woo-able. I think every person ever born had that capacity, and was convicted thousands of times before their deaths to "Come unto Me!" Must harden their hearts themselves.

JACK: No one denies the general call of God as Ezekiel gave to the Valley of Dry bones. But his preaching alone didn't cause life to come to the bones. We are to give forth the gospel to all the world.

RUSTY: The idea that God creates people He purposely intends to burn is mad, IMO.

JACK: He created all people to glorify Him (Isa. 43:7). Obviously, not all choose to do that and end up in hell by their own sin and their own refusal to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

RUSTY: Did you force your wife to marry you, even when you both knew "you were made for me"? I hope not.

JACK: Of course not, but I didn't marry a corpse either. BTW yesterday was our wedding anniversary.

RUSTY: The grain of faith that Christ comments so many times with His encounters with unusual candidates (Roman officers, a pagan lady in Lebanon, the lady who touch His hem) is what all saved people start out with...then that faith grows as trust and regeneration blossoms.

JACK: Really? And just where is the scripture that talks about "a grain of faith"? And if that is accurate, why in the world would Jesus say, "You have no ability to come unto me...." (Jn. 6:44). Incidentally, I know you and I disagree on this point, but thank you for your politeness and isn't this fun?


I know better to attempt to discuss free will with a Calvinist. I Pass. I'll let others have the fun....I get more funner things to do.
 
The bafflement is how you can read my evidence and Major's and still be baffled as to what we both say.
Well I saw angel as Jesus, not Holy Spirit. But now with your verses in Exodus it does seem like that is the Holy Spirit. I am old, but not yet grey or as wise :), you guys need patience with us younger ones.
 
RUSTY: I think you confuse utter blindness to unwillingness.

JW: If it was just "blindness," I think your point would well taken. But it is also spiritual "deadness." Eph. 2:1 Paul uses NEKROS "Dead" in trespasses and sin. The Greek word means "corpse" unresponsiveness. Kick a corpse and there will be no reaction, very similar to Ezekiel's Valley of dead bones. It was the Spirit of the Lord that brought those dead, dry, parched bones to life using the preaching of Ezkiel. When Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the fact that He was the bread of life, He made this statement, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him...." The Greek word for "can" has the connotation of ability. He says, you don't have the ability to come to Me. The word for "draws" is a very strong word HELKUO which means to draw by force or drag. It is used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 54:13 and in James 2:6 meaning to drag into court. Kittle, the Greek scholar, renders it "To compel by irresistable authority."

Jack, show me a scripture that literally says God is partial. You need to supply that as I can supply scripture that literally says God is not ;)...and that it is a sin. James 2, Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

Scripture speaking on election, regeneration and pre-destination cannot be read without the volume of scripture clearly stating that God is impartial. Unless you want to accuse God of sin and imitate the devil. 'Jump, it is written that angels will catch you' purposely ignoring 'thou shalt not tempt God'.
 
I once knew a woman (catholic) who was a good person but had her flaws. But whatever she prayed for always were answered, literally :coffee: I can't say I "feel" the holy spirit when I pray but I do think that the longer you pray (thru the years) the better you get. Perhaps that's just getting better to know what to pray for?

I am so incredibly jealous of this ability. I have often wondered why my prayer of healing is not happening. I feel there is something I am doing wrong.
 
I am so incredibly jealous of this ability. I have often wondered why my prayer of healing is not happening. I feel there is something I am doing wrong.
You are doing nothing wrong. God hears the prayer of the righteous John 9:31. If that is you, He hears your prayer just as much as anyone elses.

There are so many who imply that if you dont know x and y or quote a, b and c when you pray, God will not answer your prayer :rolleyes:. The bottom line is God hears all His childrens prayers. We walk in His full provision. He shows no favoritism. He will very likely respond to the dumb and illiterate children first :) as would I and you as we are / will be, just like God, gooooood parents.
 
You are doing nothing wrong. God hears the prayer of the rightoeus John 9:31. If that is you, He hears your prayer just as much as anyone elses.

There are so many who imply that if you dont know x and y or quote a, b and c when you pray, God will not answer your prayer :rolleyes:. The bottom line is God hears all His childrens prayers. We walk in His full provision. He shows no favouritism. He will very likely respond to the dumb and illiterate children first :) as would I and you as we are, just like God, gooooood parents.


Thank you...I just don't understand how some people have luck with prayers and others don't. I think my problem is that I always have a little tiny doubt and for some reason I always have it stuck in my mind that he will not answer my prayers because of my doubt. BTW, the doubt stems from years of praying about the issue until it finally got better, but came back again after beginning to attend church regularly of all things. Anyhow, I do appreciate the encouragement. I have somewhat given up on trying to recover...I've realized it's on His terms.
 
KingJ: Jack, show me a scripture that literally says God is partial. You need to supply that as I can supply scripture that literally says God is not ;). James 2; Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

JACK: No one has said that God is partial. James 2 is talking about partiality to rich people, because people of wealth were often regarded as also righteous in those days, and that was a fallacy. Christians are not to associate wealth with righteousness. Not all rich people are godly and not all poor people are sinners. Acts 10:34 is talking about partiality between Jew and Gentile, and that can't be because God saves both. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at. It is certainly true that God choose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13), and only those people will believe upon Him (Acts 13:48). The reason He chose them, to my knowledge, is never revealed in Scripture.

KINGJ: Scripture speaking on election, regeneration and pre-destination cannot be read without the volume of scripture clearly stating that God is impartial. Unless you want to imitate the evil. 'Jump, it is written that angels will catch you' purposely ignoring 'thou shalt not tempt God'.

JACK: Again, I'm not seeing the link that you see between the texts you cited that there is no partiality with God and the passages dealing with God's salvation. Salvation has nothing to do with personal wealth and it certainly has nothing to do with being an ethnic Jew or a Gentile.
 
Well I saw angel as Jesus, not Holy Spirit. But now with your verses in Exodus it does seem like that is the Holy Spirit. I am old, but not yet grey or as wise :), you guys need patience with us younger ones.

God love ya man and so do I. You are a fine christian and I have grown to respect you.

I enjoy trying to teach youngans the Word of God and we all need to realize that arguments and confrontation will always lead to failure to get out the gospel.

If I have in anyway come across less than what you think is acceptable, I do appolgize.
 
Thank you...I just don't understand how some people have luck with prayers and others don't. I think my problem is that I always have a little tiny doubt and for some reason I always have it stuck in my mind that he will not answer my prayers because of my doubt. BTW, the doubt stems from years of praying about the issue until it finally got better, but came back again after beginning to attend church regularly of all things. Anyhow, I do appreciate the encouragement. I have somewhat given up on trying to recover...I've realized it's on His terms.
I did a study a while back on this on an interesting point came to mind about ''believing''.

The ''neigbours'' kid needs to believe that you are a good parent. As he needs to come to you to get bandaged. You can't go to him. But your kids do not need to believe surely. They are already your kids (this touches on our other discussion). Hence, whether my kid is nervous or has doubts is irrelevant. I will look after him and I will ''consider'' his requests for his desires.
 
Well I saw angel as Jesus, not Holy Spirit. But now with your verses in Exodus it does seem like that is the Holy Spirit. I am old, but not yet grey or as wise :), you guys need patience with us younger ones.

King.....if you are referring to the "Angel of the Lord" in Exodus, you are correct, it is the Pre-incarnant Christ.
 
Thank you...I just don't understand how some people have luck with prayers and others don't. I think my problem is that I always have a little tiny doubt and for some reason I always have it stuck in my mind that he will not answer my prayers because of my doubt. BTW, the doubt stems from years of praying about the issue until it finally got better, but came back again after beginning to attend church regularly of all things. Anyhow, I do appreciate the encouragement. I have somewhat given up on trying to recover...I've realized it's on His terms.

Life..........remember that God hears and answers all prayers in one of 3 ways....

1. YES
2. NO
3. LATER
 
Well I saw angel as Jesus, not Holy Spirit. But now with your verses in Exodus it does seem like that is the Holy Spirit. I am old, but not yet grey or as wise :), you guys need patience with us younger ones.
No worries...Glad to see you are seeing with renewed eyes...always heartening!
 
I am so incredibly jealous of this ability. I have often wondered why my prayer of healing is not happening. I feel there is something I am doing wrong.

I can't say I was jealous, per se, but I have to admit, even to this day, I am not sure of the mechanism. I always went to her when I needed a prayer :) The only thing I can say about it was, in her, the power of prayer was extraordinary. I agree that God answers all prayers - we just might not "like" the answer (grin). In the case of "Lucy", she always got what she prayed for.
 
Life says : I am so incredibly jealous of this ability. I have often wondered why my prayer of healing is not happening. I feel there is something I am doing wrong.

I know what you mean, tho, about the "healing" prayers. The answer I get is "you have the ability to heal yourself" which not only makes me feel "guilty" but clueless as to the meaning.
 
JACK: No one has said that God is partial. James 2 is talking about partiality to rich people, because people of wealth were often regarded as also righteous in those days, and that was a fallacy. Christians are not to associate wealth with righteousness. Not all rich people are godly and not all poor people are sinners. Acts 10:34 is talking about partiality between Jew and Gentile, and that can't be because God saves both. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at. It is certainly true that God choose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13), and only those people will believe upon Him (Acts 13:48). The reason He chose them, to my knowledge, is never revealed in Scripture.

JACK: Again, I'm not seeing the link that you see between the texts you cited that there is no partiality with God and the passages dealing with God's salvation. Salvation has nothing to do with personal wealth and it certainly has nothing to do with being an ethnic Jew or a Gentile.
Jack, I don't know why you down-play James 2. It reads clearly that God sees partiality as a sin. Its not just a circumstantial discussion of the rich.

I pray that one-day you perceive the same truth Peter did in Acts 10:34.
 
[quoteingJ, post: 276818, member: 6674"]Jack, I don't know why you down-play James 2. It reads clearly that God sees partiality as a sin. Its not just a circumstantial discussion of the rich.

I'm not playing it down at all; I'm merely putting it in its intented context. Surely, you would concede the point that James is talking about the distinction of wealth--he says that very plainly. There was a practice of identifying wealth with righteousness and James is commenting on that evil practice.

I pray that one-day you perceive the same truth Peter did in Acts 10:34.[/quote]

Well, you prayer was answered many years ago. I thoroughly understand the truth that Peter mentioned here. He was commenting on the distinction between Jew and Gentile which was the major controversy of that day. Both can be saved by faith in Christ. That seems like a very obviously conclusion from the reading of the passage.
 
Top