Revelation

[Major]

REVELATION 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

These two verses may be the reason we do not here a lot of messages from the Revelation. It is something to be very careful with.

IMHO, "taking away from" the Bible is not the problem. It is the "Adding to" the Bible where we get into trouble.

You see, this speaks to those who try to make this writing say things it does not say: warping the text for their own ends.

Adding comments, content, opinions or interpretations which minimize Revelation's commands and promises is tantamount to calling the Lord Jesus who inspired the book, a liar.

When Moses gave God's statutes and rules to Israel, he warned in Deut. 4:2......
"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you".

Also, in Deuteronomy 12:32, the Lord warned:.......
"Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it." Proverbs 30:5–6 says, "Every word of God proves true…Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."

God's Word is perfect and authoritative and needs no human additions. A message as complex as Revelation, in particular, cannot be manipulated without risking severe error. Although this warning is technically in reference to Revelation itself, the general principle is a good one to apply across all of Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6).

 

[Major]

REVELATION 22:20-21
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus,
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It is completely by the grace of our Lord Jesus that God saves sinners, provides for all their needs, allows them to serve Him, and keeps them until the final day of redemption. When we reach heaven, we will not boast about what we accomplished on earth. We will sing about the grace that saved us, sustained us in every trial, met our every need, secured our safe passage to heaven, and granted us the privilege of seeing our Savior face to face. Grace abolishes every human tendency to bask in self-glory, and it causes us to give God all the glory for what He has accomplished in our lives.

Well, we have ended our journey through the Bible book that is called the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It has been an honor to do this and I hope that it has been a blessing to all who followed along in some way. I pray that it has helped some in their understanding of the times we live in and increased your knowledge in the Bible.

If you would like to make comments or ask questions I will try my best to respond.

 

[forgiven61]

The LION = The kingdom of Babylon
The BEAR = Medo-Persia
The LEOPARD = Greece under Alexander the Great
The TERRIBLE = Roman Empire

so out of curiosity how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ? NO argument i jst would like to know if there is scripture i would like to read it

 

[Major]

so out of curiosity how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ? NO argument i jst would like to know if there is scripture i would like to read it

Would you rephase your question. As posted, I can not understand what you are asking.
" how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ?" = ????

 

[Major]

Would you rephase your question. As posted, I can not understand what you are asking.
" how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ?" = ????

You asked............
" how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ?" = ????

I am not sure what you are asking and I am reluctant to respond because of not knowing for sure.

I THINK you are asking how I came to the conclusion that ......
The LION = The kingdom of Babylon
The BEAR = Medo-Persia
The LEOPARD = Greece under Alexander the Great
The TERRIBLE = Roman Empire.

If that is the case then the answer comes from REAL HISTORY and IN DEPTH Bible study!

LION = BABYLON!
What was Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon regarded as by God? "The king of kings" (Daniel 2:37) - the 'greatest of kingdoms.'
What kingdom was Daniel living under when God proclaimed Nebuchadnezzar as that 'head of God'? Babylon. And what kingdom was Daniel living under during this dream of the four great beasts? Babylon. So it also stands to reason that this first beast is Babylon.

BEAR = Medo-Persia
Daniel 7:5 ...'And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.'

Which kingdom came after Babylon in the great image of Daniel 2? Medo Persia. And what was this kingdom composed of? TWO NATIONS - the Medes and the Persians, with one nation, the Persians taking the higher, leading role in this kingdom. Thus why the bear is 'raised up on ONE SIDE.'

The three ribs in the mouth of the bear shows that the bear has just devoured something. So what did the Medo-Persian empire devour in order to become the next 'ruling kingdom of the world'? This points to the Medes and Persians conquering Babylon, Lydia and Egypt. Babylon was the kingdom controlling the world. And when Medo-Persia conquered it, then it became the next 'kingdom upon the earth' to rule the world.

The LEOPARD = Greece under Alexander the Great
Daniel 7:6 ...'After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.'

Alexander the Great conquered the world for Grecia. But the leopard also has four heads. The heads of the beast would denote the ruling powers of that kingdom. And when Alexander's life was cut short, his Grecian empire was divided between his four generals 1.- Cassander had Macedon and Greece in the west;
2.- Lysimachus had Thrace and parts of Asia in the north;
3.- Ptolemy received Egypt, Lydia, Arabia, Palestine in the south, and
4.- Seleucus had Syria and all the rest of Alexander's dominions in the east.



The TERRIBLE = Roman Empire.
Daniel 7:7-8 ...'After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.'

How accurately Rome fitted the iron legs of the great image in Daniel 2???? And how accurately it fits to the beast before us????
In the dread and terror which it inspired, and in its exceeding strength, the world never has seen its equal. REAL HISTORY says It devoured, as with iron teeth, and brake in pieces; and it ground the nations into the very dust! And as we know, it was the Roman Empire which ruled cruely over the Jews and had our Saviour nailed to the cross! Surely, a 'terrible beast' Rome was!

Read Daniel chapter #2 and #7. I hope this answers your question!

 

[forgiven61]

Would you rephase "rephrase " lol just having fun { makes me feel better. someone who can type } your question. As posted, I can not understand what you are asking.
" how did the come to this conclusion on being idled ?" = ????

the should have read THEY i know my grammar stinks . i am not a writer but a speaker i am not a good at typing times i miss the key and fail to proof read . i will read the scriptures thanks


i just want make sure this is not what man has to say is truth. i just had a discussion in another forum them saying' The Rapture was never taught before the 1800's."" . in our Bible study its not about who is right and who is wrong.. as you read in to rev. it makes one wonder as compared to todays events

 

[Major]

the should have read THEY i know my grammar stinks . i am not a writer but a speaker i am not a good at typing times i miss the key and fail to proof read . i will read the scriptures thanks


i just want make sure this is not what man has to say is truth. i just had a discussion in another forum them saying' The Rapture was never taught before the 1800's."" . in our Bible study its not about who is right and who is wrong.. as you read in to rev. it makes one wonder as compared to todays events

F61.........All I do is teach the Word of God found in the Scriptures. I have never used what a man says.!

A common argument against the doctrine of the rapture is that it is a new teaching and, so the argument goes, because it is new, it cannot be true.

Actually brother, the Rapture has been taught for the last 2000 years!

A man named Pseudo-Ephraem delivered one of the 1st recorded teaching of the Rapture in a sermon in 400 AD known as the Sermon on the End of the World or, as it is also named, On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.

 

[forgiven61]

Actually brother, the Rapture has been taught for the last 2000 years!

cool the man part was NOT towards you. i have no issue on your rev post just some things i need to know like the animal /creatures

dan 7 is another one i understand eagles represent the u..s. but in Bible prophecy not sure

 

[Major]

cool the man part was NOT towards you. i have no issue on your rev post just some things i need to know like the animal /creatures

dan 7 is another one i understand eagles represent the u..s. but in Bible prophecy not sure

I did understand but thanks.

IMHO......the USA is NOT in Bible prophecy. The use by John of an Eagle in the Revelation is a referance to "Speed". Eagles fly fast!

I will be glad to help in any way I can.

 

[VictorianLady]

Found it! I'll start reading it.

 

[Major]

Found it! I'll start reading it.

I am available if you should have any questions.

 

[DavyP]

....

First of all it must be understood that YOU or ANYONE else does not know when this event will take place.

Matthew 24:36...…...

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

This is not up for debate. When Jesus says NO ONE knows, then NO ONE KNOWS.


Now lets consider Matthew 24:34...……….
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

"This generation" is the key for Context. No one living when Jesus spoke those words lived to see "ALL THESE THINGS" come to pass.

The original Greek word used here can mean...."RACE" or FAMILY". That makes perfect sense in this context as the Jewish race has been preserved now for the past 2000 years. In spite of terrible persecution the Lord Jesus has kept that race of people and they exist now in the Promised land of which He gave to them going all the way back to Exodus.

Correct that Lord Jesus was pointing to the final generation that would see His future return.

But be aware that some Judaizers like to create confusion with trying to make one only interpret that word "generation" in a race sense, to try and make that verse to just mean the generation of His Apostles. The word 'generation' can also be used to point to a time or era of man upon the earth, irrespective of any specific race.

Jesus showed that the 'generation' He was pointing to would see "all these things", i.e. all the Signs He was giving there in His Olivet discourse, and the final Sign He gave there is about His future return. So no, of course His disciples did not see that, but the final generation will.

I am one who believes that this happened on May 14th, 1948. On that day, the U.N. Security Council voted 15-0 to give Palestine back to the Jews and named that land "ISRAEL". It is of course -- The Promised Land. That act placed the nation of Israel back into the Land just as God promised them.

Yes. I too believe 1948 represents a prophetic period about the end leading up to Christ's future coming. It fulfills the Jeremiah 24 prophecy where God promised Judah that He would bring them back to the land and not remove them again. He also pointed to another basket of figs that would be brought back along with Judah, and that other basket represents the "tares".

Something that is very important about understanding that Jeremiah 24 prophecy. That was to the "house of Judah" (Jews) only, and not to the ten lost tribes (i.e., "house of Israel"). Some of the orthodox Jews today try to quote from Isaiah about the return of Jews back to the holy land since 1948, as if it is about the 'final' gathering of the children of Israel. But that is not true. It is only... about the gathering of the two baskets of figs that God showed His prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 24. It is not about Christ's final gathering of all 12 tribes.

One would of course also have to understand who the Jews represent per God's Word, and not according to pop notions. The title 'Jew' comes from the tribe of Judah (per the Jewish historian Josephus). The ten northern tribes of the "house of Israel" did not call themselves by that title of Jew. Only the southern "kingdom of Judah" began using that title. This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1; Acts 21:39). How can one be a Jew, that title being from the tribe of Judah, but born from the tribe of Benjamin? It's because when God split old Israel in Solomon's day, the tribe of Benjamin only sided with the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem, and became known as the "kingdom of Judah", and called theirselves Jews (or actually Judeans, as the strangers living with them also called themselves).

These are specifics, but I think they are very important.

 

[DavyP]

....
4. Futurist.
This view sees most of the book, chapters 4 to the end as prophecy yet to be fulfilled. The Futurist view is the one I entertain. I has studied all the others and the Futurist view is the one that fits together completely with no work or manipulations to make anything understandable.

You and I disagree on that.

I don't claim to hold to any of those seminary categories; I see them all as trying to 'limit' God's Truth in His Word towards a certain system, an imperfect system of men's doctrines that will always need modifying as time moves forward towards the end. That does not mean I disagree with everything they believe though, as I have been accused of being of all four of those categories, but that will always happen to one who tries to strictly keep to God's Word as written.

One of the things that does not make me a Futurist is that I do not see man's Pre-tribulational Rapture theory written in God's Word. I only see God's Word teaching about Christ's return at the end of the "great tribulation" to begin His "thousand years" reign with His elect.

 

[DavyP]

Revelation 1:10...………..
"On the LORD's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet".

Being IN the Spirit, John was then unable to make a mistake.

The Lord's day is of course everyday of the week. However, in this case, it is the FIRST day of the week which is the day Chrst rose from the dead and as Christians we worship on that day which is Sunday.

Most Bible teachers say that the "Sound of a Trumpet" is the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not a scholar in any way whatsoever, but I believe that it is the voice of God as well.

It might also be possible that by "On the LORD's Day" John meant the "day of the Lord", the day of Jesus' future return and taking reign.

 

[DavyP]

Revelation 1:19-20.........
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks."

What Bible version are you using? It appears to leave out the last phrase of verse 20 there...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

That last statement Lord Jesus said, "... and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches" gives more info about His 7 Messages to the 7 Churches.

I do not agree with Dispensationalism's "Church Ages" theory about those 7 Messages Lord Jesus gave. And that underlined part of the verse above is one of the reasons why.

The "seven candlesticks" Apostle John was shown was a Heavenly pattern, not an earthly one, even though it was about the 7 Churches in Asia Minor on earth. It reveals there is a candlestick, in Heaven, representing each of the 7 Churches. This makes Lord Jesus' 7 Messages more symbolic as 'patterns' to be applied upon ALL Churches, even for today. With His Message to the very first Church at Ephesus, He warns them to repent or He would remove their candlestick out of its place (Rev.2:5).

What men's doctrine does about those 7 Messages to represent Church ages, is make them appear chronological with the idea of the history of the Christian Church. That is actually not at all what Jesus showed them as. And just because His Book of Revelation uses a lot of symbology, that still is no reason to create one's own symbolic philosophy out of it for we are not God. So we should stick to what He gave us and interpret that, allowing Scripture to interpret itself for us.

And what Jesus showed with His 7 Messages is how 5 out of the 7 Churches fell short, and He told those 5 to repent. And He even mentioned events that point only to the end of this world and His coming with some of those Messages. So that evidence shows He was not only giving those 7 Messages to just those literal Churches in Asia in John's day, but to all Churches, all the way to the end when He returns.

What men's Church Ages doctrine does is make you think that once one so-called 'church age' is complete, that that Message is done with. And today, their theory is that we now live in the last one, the Laodicean Church Age. Well, what happened to the previous 6 Messages Jesus gave? Why aren't those still in effect today? Actually, they are still in effect today, for ALL Churches.

What each Christian Church to day is to do is to study Christ's 7 Messages to the Church of Asia, and 'compare' their Church to all 7 Messages, to see where they stand. Now I don't claim to be perfect, but it's not difficult to see there are problem Churches still today that can be compared with what was going on in all five of those Churches Jesus had rebuke for.

So what about those 2 Churches Lord Jesus had NO rebuke for? the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia? Instead of rebuke, He commented on how He knew they were under attack by false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan". He showed those 2 Churches represent His elect that are not deceived. Those 2 Churches are the correct model for ALL... Churches in Christ. How then, can men's doctrines even try... to assign a historical 'Church Age' era to those 2 Church Messages, because it means those 2 Churches Jesus had NO rebuke for, meaning they were perfectly aligned with His Word? Jesus even said how the Church of Philadelphia had 'kept' His Word. Were those 5 Churches Jesus rebuked showing they had kept His Word? Obviously not, and that is the problem with many Churches still to this day. All the seminary categories of man fail in that keeping all His Word, Preterism (partial or full), Historicism, Idealism, Futurism, they all fail in keeping some point in His Word.

 

[DavyP]

Now as I reach this point I need to tell you WITHOUT apology that I approach this from the "Pre-millennial,-- futurist approach".
This approach Insists that the events of (chapters 4-22), are yet future, and that those chapters literally and symbolically depict actual people and events yet to appear on the world scene.

This method describes the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus Christ (chapters 6-19), the Millennium and final judgment (chapter 20), and the eternal state (chapters 21 and 22). Only this view does justice to Revelation's claim to be prophecy and interprets the book by the same grammatical-historical method as (chapters 1-3), and the rest of Scripture.

Please understand......I know that some reading this will not agree with me. Also know that I am not going to DEBATE WITH ANYONE on what their view is. That is not what this thread is about.

So then REVELATION 3:7-13............
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It is MY understanding that this is the church to be RAPTURED. The Prophetic application is from the Resurrection to today!

Remember, this is NOT a message from John. All of this is direct from the Lord Jesus Christ, GOD!

HE identifies Himself in verse #7 as --
“him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

This description of Jesus emphasizes His holiness, His sovereignty, and His authority. The reference to the key of David is an allusion to the Messianic prophecy Isaiah 22>22............
"And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

Jesus is the one who opens and shuts, and no one can say Him nay. It also confirms that He who wrote Isaih also wrote the Revelation.

Verse #8 says .....
“I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name” .

The church of Philadelphia was weak in some respects, yet they had remained faithful in the face of trial. Because of this, the Lord promises them an “open door” of blessing.

In verse #9 we see ............
“I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you” .

Those who persecuted the believers (the persecutors were religious hypocrites in this case) would one day realize Christ loves His children. The church of Philadelphia would be victorious over its enemies.

Now right here in verses #10-11 is the reason I present my understanding the Philadelphia church will be the Raptured church.

Jesus encourages the Philadelphian believers regarding His future coming: ........
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown”.

The church’s faithful endurance would serve as a blessing. Jesus would take them to be with Him before the coming tribulation.

1 Thess. 4:13-18.............
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

He also exhorts them to remain faithful, because this would lead to rewards in the afterlife. Based on this and other passages, many Bible interpreters conclude that the RAPTURE is an event distinct from the 2nd Coming of Christ. The fact that the Philadelphians are promised to be preserved from the time of the tribulation corresponds with the pre-tribulation view of the timing of the Rapture.

Jesus provides a final promise to the believers in Philadelphia and to all believers: verse 12.......+
“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down from out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name”.

Professor Thomas Constable notes------
“God promised that He will not just honor overcomers by erecting a pillar in their name in heaven, as was the custom in Philadelphia. He will make them pillars in the spiritual temple of God, the New Jerusalem (21:22; cf.).
Gal. 2:9; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:19-22; 1 Pet. 2:4-10).” (Source: Thomas Constable, Notes on Revelation )

The idea of 'escape' there is NOT about physical escape. It is about escaping the 'deception' trial in the last hour, i.e., during the time of "great tribulation". These along with the Church of Smyrna, represent Christ's elect that cannot be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ at the end in Jerusalem, nor by the "image of the beast" image that will be setup for all nations to bow in worship to...

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The phrase above translated as "false Christs" is from 2 Greek words, 'pseudo' which means false, and 'christos' which means a singular Christ. Lord Jesus' warnings in verse 23 & 26 also reveal that He was pointing to a specific singular false-Messiah, or pseudo-Christ.

But especially notice that Jesus said above in verse 24 that coming pseudo-Christ would work great signs and wonders that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect. That was Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:4-9 also about that coming false one to Jerusalem at the end of this world.

You mean Christ's very elect servants are going to go through all that, which is about the coming "great tribulation" He warned about in that Chapter? Yes, and that is who He was talking about with the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia also about the "open door" Jesus set before them that no man can shut or open (which is pointing to how they cannot be deceived).

These two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia represent the "two candlesticks" that make a stand during the great tribulation along with God's two witnesses (see Revelation 11). Recall that in the last verse of Revelation 1 that Jesus said the seven candlesticks are... the seven Churches.

So I am sorry Major, but the Church of Philadelphia is not about a 'pre-trib rapture' church, and this is per God's written Word.

 

[DavyP]

REVELATION 4:1-2...........
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

This section begins a new section of......""Things that shall be hereafter" (vs. 1:19).

Now, "most" people who do Bible study agree that there is indeed a "catching away/gathering or Rapture". That is not really a point of debate. The TIMING of that event is what is hard to place.
It Bible theology there are at least 4 views of this event..........

The "Come up hither" said to Apostle John does not mean a rapture. John was seeing a vision while 'in the Spirit', just as God had done in the past with His Old Testament prophets.

The timeline view of Rev.4 & 5 is AFTER Christ's future return, when the rewards are handed out. That is the time when the white robes and crowns of gold are handed out.

4. Post-tribulation view = “The rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.”
There are many problems with this view: Two of them are -
A. The most obvious one is that Jesus promised to keep believers from the time of trial (Rev 3:10).
This promise would be broken if Jesus came after a large number of the church age believers were martyred.
B. This leaves no time for the believers to visit the Father’s house, and no time for the judgment seat of Christ.

The Post-tribulational view is the only... timing that God's written Word shows is the time of Christ's future return to gather His Church. Jesus revealed that emphatically in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, and on that point I will never... budge. So if that hurts someone's feelings, then you need to take it up with our Lord Jesus Christ and discipline yourself in His actual written Word.

Once again, the idea of escape in Rev.3:10 is about NOT being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ during the future "great tribulation". It is not about physical escape. Nor is there any Scripture written that supports a rapture of the Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation". I challenge anyone to supply one that does.

Lets consider 1 Thess. 4:16.............
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".

Verse #2............."I was in the Spirit" means that John was unable to make a mistake or an error in his writing.

"Rainbow" ........means the mercy of God's promise, no flood!!!

Verse #3............."Emerald green" is the color of life.

What we are reading is what John saw and he is IN the Throne Room of God! He is a witness to the glory of God.

What Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church actually COMES FROM CHRIST'S OLIVET DISCOURSE.

In Matthew 24:31, Lord Jesus showed the angels gather His saints (i.e., His Church) "... from one end of heaven to the other." Who would that represent in 1 Thess.4? That is about the 'asleep' saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

In Mark 13:27, Lord Jesus showed the angels gather His saints "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Who would that be in 1 Thess.4? That is about those of us still alive when Jesus comes, and "caught up" to Him and the asleep saints (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

That perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Jesus had ALREADY GIVEN THAT in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

There is simply no such thing as a Pre-trib Rapture in God's Word. That idea has to be candy-wrapped in many words outside of God's written Word to be believed. For 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a coming of Christ to gather His Church after the tribulation, as written. Only in 1830's Great Britain certain men like Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby came along and started preaching a 'secret rapture' prior to the tribulation. Cyrus Scofield in the U.S. carried the doctrine over into the U.S. and put in his Scofield Reference Bible.

 

[DavyP]

REVELATION 4:5-6..............
"And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four beasts full of eyes in front and in back."

The Bible always interprets itself. From verse #5 we now can confirm that John was seeing the "Throne Room" scene in heaven.

Carefully notice and if you have a Greek concordance that the "tense" is in the PRESENT. It should be "Proceed not proceeded"

It means that it is taking place right then and there.

A vision of the future is what is taking place, not that it has already happened today, nor at any time during this 'present' world. That event is still future to us even.

 

[DavyP]

REVELATION 5:2-4.............
"And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon."

We are now just past the "Removal of the Church" and John is still having a vision of the Throne Room of God.

No such idea of a rapture of the Church is written in any of that. That idea is only a false suggestion planted by the Pre-trib Rapture school.

The Revelation 5 chapter is a description about the Seals which are getting ready to be opened, which is what those Seals represent. They represent SIGNS to happen leading up to the end of this world, i.e., to Christ's future return on the 'last day' of this world, to end the tribulation. They are the 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. A parallel Bible study can be done with the Seals of Rev.6 and Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Here in Rev.5, it is being shown that ONLY our Lord Jesus is worthy to open those Seals. And opening them does what? Gives us understanding of them. Because He ONLY is worthy to show them to us, that also means what? It means we MUST go directly to HIM asking Him to show us (and that means strictly praying to The Father through Jesus Christ to open them up to you, and not simply asking the preacher down the street to show you.)

 

[DavyP]

REVELATION 6:1
"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see."

We now come to the SEAL Judgments.

In the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ there are 3 sets of 7 judgments.

The 1st set is the SEAL judgments and the 7th SEAL is the set of 7 TRUMPET judgments. Then the 7th TRUMPET judgment is the set of 7 BOWL judgments.

SEAL Judgments are in Revelation 6 with the 7th one in Reveltion 8.
TRUMPET judgments are in Revelation 8 & 9 with the 7th in Revelation 16.

So what you have is......
1st seal...............Antichrist
2nd Seal.............War
3rd Seal..............Famine
4th Seal............. Death
5th Seal..............Martydom
6th Seal .............Varied disturbances
7th Seal..............= Set of 7 Trumpet Judgments
1st Trumpet.............1/3 of Earth Smitten
2nd Trumpet............1/3 of Sea affected
3rd Trumpet.............1/3 of Rivers affected
4th Trumpet..............1/3 of Sun, Moon and Stars affected
5th Trumpet...............Locusts torment men for 5 months
6th Trumpet...............200 Million man army cross the Euphrates River
7th Trumpet...............=Set of 7 BOWL Judgments
1st Bowl................Sores on the Beast followers
2nd Bowl................ALL of the Sea affected
3rd Bowl.................ALL Rivers affected
4th Bowl.................Sun scorches men
5th Bowl.................Darkness
6th Bowl.................Armies enter into Israel
7th Bowl.................Great Earthquake, Hail, Armageddon
This is the 7 Year Tribulation that Daniel told us would take place and it all begins with a SEVEN YEAR (7) Peace treaty between the A/C and Israel.

As "ONE" who does not believe that the CHURCH will go through these judgments, it seems to me that the Peace Treaty could be signed at any moment in time.

In verse #1....."THUNDER" indicate impending judgments! The sound of the FOUR Horsemen are heard!

Also in verse #1........"Come and see" is translated as------GO!

Once again, you and I disagree on the time when Lord Jesus comes to gather us. We will go through the "great tribulation", because it is written that He comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints.

Because the Seals of Rev.6 directly parallel the SIGNS of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, that means what? It means there actually are ONLY SEVEN MAIN SIGNS OF THE END, not 21. That then means... the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials are ALL... about those same 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.


All 3 below Scripture examples are of the SAME TIMING. Notice their event parallels I put in red:

6th Seal:
Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:14-19
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and Wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

7th Vial:
Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Some might ask, "Why the 6th Seal for showing events of Christ's coming and the day of His wrath? why not on the 7th Seal?"

If you've ever read the Psalms, you should notice that sometimes a Psalm will end with a "Selah". In the Hebrew selah means a pause. And as the Psalms mean 'songs', a selah also represents a musical rest, or pause of silence. Now notice what is said for the 7th Seal...

Rev 8:1
8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
KJV

Thus in reality per the Revelation Scripture, the 7th Seal actually does represent the end with Christ having come and His cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked, because there is a period of silence for half an hour before mention of the 7 trumpets. (All 7 Signs of the end that Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are covered within the 6 Seals of Rev.6. The last 6th Seal in Rev.6 in reality has TWO parts.)

And the fact of the above parallels between the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials should be enough proof that there are actually only 7 main SIGNS involved here, just expanded in Revelation by our Lord Jesus into more details. The last final SIGN Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is about the day of His future coming and gathering of His saints, which is the last day of this world. And that also is the order of events shown here in Revelation, for even on the 6th Vial He is still warning His Church to be careful to keep our garments lest we appear naked and in shame (because of being deceived by the pseudo-Christ that comes first).