Something does not add up

[Juk]

It adds up. As said earlier, everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. His laws are on our heart. Unbelievers don’t believe because they love this world and their sin more than God. The sad part is this is true of every human and is why God, out of his mercy and for His purpose chose to save some out of the many (Eph 2; Matt 22:14). He has to remove our stony heart

So your statement is correct, “people will only believe the Gospel if God opens up their heart to it.” This is because on our own none of us will believe the Gospel with all our heart and soul as God requires (Jos 22:5). We may think we believe for a while and then fall away but that is not real belief. This is what the parable of the sower is about (Luke 8). God opens the heart of His people and the word takes root (see also Eze 11:19-21).

If God does not open up an individual’s heart to the Gospel it is because that individual was not elected to salvation (some made for honor and some not – Rom 9:20-23). That person’s name was not recorded in the Lamb’s book of Life, written before the foundation of the world.

Like we did not choose to be born into this world. We cannot choose to be born into the next. Salvation is an unearned and undeserved gift from God. He has mercy on who He will (Ex 33:17, Ro 9:15). No one knows if they are elect or not. This is why we should all be “in the bible” as often as possible (Ro 10:17) and praying for salvation. The chosen are few relative to the all the people who ever lived on the earth but this is still a great multitude (Rev 19:6). If God saves us and opens our heart it is not because of our efforts but because of His purpose for us.

To God be the Glory

But God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[Bro Dave]

But God is not a respecter of persons.

No he's not. His people are chosen from all over the world and from all age groups. Thats the marvelous thing, Any one of us may be saved. That's why the Gospel has to be heard throughout the world before the end comes. It is guaranteed that ALL his people will have heard it and believe.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

It adds up. As said earlier, everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. His laws are on our heart. Unbelievers don’t believe because they love this world and their sin more than God. The sad part is this is true of every human and is why God, out of his mercy and for His purpose chose to save some out of the many (Eph 2; Matt 22:14). He has to remove our stony heart

So your statement is correct, “people will only believe the Gospel if God opens up their heart to it.” This is because on our own none of us will believe the Gospel with all our heart and soul as God requires (Jos 22:5). We may think we believe for a while and then fall away but that is not real belief. This is what the parable of the sower is about (Luke 8). God opens the heart of His people and the word takes root (see also Eze 11:19-21).

If God does not open up an individual’s heart to the Gospel it is because that individual was not elected to salvation (some made for honor and some not – Rom 9:20-23). That person’s name was not recorded in the Lamb’s book of Life, written before the foundation of the world.

Like we did not choose to be born into this world. We cannot choose to be born into the next. Salvation is an unearned and undeserved gift from God. He has mercy on who He will (Ex 33:17, Ro 9:15). No one knows if they are elect or not. This is why we should all be “in the bible” as often as possible (Ro 10:17) and praying for salvation. The chosen are few relative to the all the people who ever lived on the earth but this is still a great multitude (Rev 19:6). If God saves us and opens our heart it is not because of our efforts but because of His purpose for us.

To God be the Glory

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The word Have here can also be said Desires

It is up to every man to make the choice. There is NOT now nor will there ever be only a set number or select bunch that can be saved.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No he's not. His people are chosen from all over the world and from all age groups. Thats the marvelous thing, Any one of us may be saved. That's why the Gospel has to be heard throughout the world before the end comes. It is guaranteed that ALL his people will have heard it and believe.

Bro Dave,
Here in this link post 20 (( http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/something-does-not-add-up.43119/#post-416186 ))
You say this little different as in not every one is elected by God to be saved. That is not true.
Also in your view of the parable of the sower is not 100 percent correct.

It is not ONLY about a heart being turned to Christ for salvation - no sir !
This is the heart of any born again man at any time. Many Christians fall into the different soils through out their walk in Christ.

If it were true that GOD MADE SOME to be saved and some not to be saved then we would not need to spread His truth for those he made to be saved would be saved.

Blessings
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

But God is not a respecter of persons.

That is correct Juk and that is why this is important.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The word Have here can also be said Desires

It is up to every man to make the choice. There is NOT now nor will there ever be only a set number or select bunch that can be saved. As mentioned in post #20
God Bless
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

God is fair. He will not condemn anyone who has not had the opportunity to make a free choice.
God has a plan for the "innocent pagans" (i.e. those who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel), though
it is not stated explicitly in scripture.

Glomung and @Juk
There is a reason it is not stated in scripture - it is NOT TRUE
how can you say innocent pagans? Scripture says we all are as filthy rags before God.
There will be No Free Pass - No excuses - When God calls this done then His word went out to every nation and whole in the wall. NO one will be able to stand before Him and say I did not know. Every man will have had the choice.
Blessings
Jim

 

[Grant Melville]

Recently, I heard it said that God's sovereignty (to save) and man's responsibility (to hear the gospel and obey) are like railway tracks. They run on alongside each other, but they never cross over each other. Another example of perfect and unfathomable ways of God! We have to be careful, though, that we keep the thought of the two running along together. If we stray too far to one side or the other, we'll fall into the ditch of Arminianism on one side or Calvinism on the other.

 

[KingJ]

Bro Dave,
Here in this link post 20 (( http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/something-does-not-add-up.43119/#post-416186 ))
You say this little different as in not every one is elected by God to be saved. That is not true.
Also in your view of the parable of the sower is not 100 percent correct.

It is not ONLY about a heart being turned to Christ for salvation - no sir !
This is the heart of any born again man at any time. Many Christians fall into the different soils through out their walk in Christ.

If it were true that GOD MADE SOME to be saved and some not to be saved then we would not need to spread His truth for those he made to be saved would be saved.

Blessings
Jim

Glad to agree 100% with you on this. I don't think Bro Dave is saying that though. Maybe I misread.

 

[eric m williams]

God is fair. He will not condemn anyone who has not had the opportunity to make a free choice.
God has a plan for the "innocent pagans" (i.e. those who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel), though
it is not stated explicitly in scripture.

I'd say its spelled out pretty well in the book of Romans:
Romans 1:20-21 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Francis Drake]

There is NOT now nor will there ever be only a set number or select bunch that can be saved.

That needed to be said!

 

[Glomung]

Glomung and @Juk
There is a reason it is not stated in scripture - it is NOT TRUE
how can you say innocent pagans? Scripture says we all are as filthy rags before God.
There will be No Free Pass - No excuses - When God calls this done then His word went out to every nation and whole in the wall. NO one will be able to stand before Him and say I did not know. Every man will have had the choice.
Blessings
Jim

The original meaning of innocent is "not knowing". You can have your opinions as you like, but God is not a murderer, He does not create just so He can destroy.
There have been billions of people born who have never had any opportunity to hear of Jesus or of God.
The quotes from Romans that eric tossed out above have nothing to do with this situation, we are talking about those WHO HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO CHRIST IN ANY WAY.

 

[eric m williams]

Perhaps I should have added this earlier, but unless I am misreading things badly, Glomung, you are contradicting Jesus words.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
If there is another way, then Jesus was wrong.

God is evident in all of creation and in us.
Those who have never heard will still know. In their ignorance they might use different names, but they will still know. The truth is written in us. That is why the gospel is so hated by those who reject Jesus.

I cannot give scriptural evidence, but I have always thought (based on Romans 2) that those who follow Jesus without knowing the details, will recognize Him when they hear the gospel.
Regardless, I trust Him to sort it out. He knows more and is far more powerful than us.

 

[KingJ]

Everyone will get a fair and equal opportunity. The case for another time and place is 100% valid for babies, mentally challenged and maybe even all under 19 (as those spared in the desert). But that guy on an island does not need to hear me talk to him about Jesus. I believe Jesus is currently knocking on the door to everyone's heart. Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

 

[Grant Melville]

The original meaning of innocent is "not knowing". You can have your opinions as you like, but God is not a murderer, He does not create just so He can destroy.
There have been billions of people born who have never had any opportunity to hear of Jesus or of God.
The quotes from Romans that eric tossed out above have nothing to do with this situation, we are talking about those WHO HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO CHRIST IN ANY WAY.

It's definitely a difficult question, and there are differing opinions on it. How God will deal with, say, a lost tribe from the depths of the Amazonian rainforest, I really can't say. Perhaps He will judge that they should've believed the testimony of creation? Some would point to scriptures such as Psalm 19:1 to say that there's an undeniable testimony in creation. I can only speculate, and, as you say, it doesn't tell us explicitly in scripture that He will accept them because they've never heard the gospel. However, I think can write across it, "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25). We can be assured that God will deal righteously with every soul that He has made.

 

[Glomung]

Perhaps I should have added this earlier, but unless I am misreading things badly, Glomung, you are contradicting Jesus words.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
If there is another way, then Jesus was wrong.

God is evident in all of creation and in us.
Those who have never heard will still know. In their ignorance they might use different names, but they will still know. The truth is written in us. That is why the gospel is so hated by those who reject Jesus.

I cannot give scriptural evidence, but I have always thought (based on Romans 2) that those who follow Jesus without knowing the details, will recognize Him when they hear the gospel.
Regardless, I trust Him to sort it out. He knows more and is far more powerful than us.

You make the poor assumption that Jesus will never have anything to do with a non-believer after they have died.

 

[eric m williams]

You make the poor assumption that Jesus will never have anything to do with a non-believer after they have died.

....uhm, what?

I'm going with what scripture says.
Brother, what are you talking about?

 

[/]

Please keep this thread civil.
Remember rule 3.0.

 

[Euphemia]

Recently, I heard it said that God's sovereignty (to save) and man's responsibility (to hear the gospel and obey) are like railway tracks. They run on alongside each other, but they never cross over each other. Another example of perfect and unfathomable ways of God! We have to be careful, though, that we keep the thought of the two running along together. If we stray too far to one side or the other, we'll fall into the ditch of Arminianism on one side or Calvinism on the other.

Why? Simply believe in Jesus Christ, make Him your Saviour and Lord and begin to walk in His ways, daily digesting His word.

 

[Francis Drake]

Everyone will get a fair and equal opportunity. The case for another time and place is 100% valid for babies, mentally challenged and maybe even all under 19 (as those spared in the desert). But that guy on an island does not need to hear me talk to him about Jesus. I believe Jesus is currently knocking on the door to everyone's heart. Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

I am that person you refer to. The following is my testimony cross posted from another thread. http://www.christianforumsite.com/t...ptures-for-gods-will.42628/page-6#post-416423
As demonstrated below, I was born again over a decade before I heard the gospel. Additionally, my wife was born again at 3 years old, and like Paul had third heaven experiences and saw the Lord and the heavenly city, but never heard the gospel or went to church till she was 18 years old.

Francis Drake's testimony-
I was born and raised in a non christian family. Somewhere about eleven years old, I met the Lord, alone in my bedroom. His presence was overwhelming love. I got down on my knees and said, "Please don't forget me."
I knew absolutely nothing of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I told nobody what had happened.
About this time, my parents started taking us to an Anglican church. I do not recall hearing the gospel there either.
I do in fact remember the minister once telling us about the death of Jesus on the cross. He explained the great significance of his death by crucifixion was that it was the most cruel and painful death ever devised by man, and that was all.
I had read enough war books to know this was garbage because the Nazi Gestapo or the Japanese secret police would torture people for months without letting them die, whereas Jesus died after a few hours. In fact the thieves took even longer to die!
To this day, I remember making a logical decision to utterly rejected what the minister told us about the crucifixion.
That was all I recall being told about the death of Jesus.

At about the age of fourteen or fifteen I remember being with a group of kids from church sat around a bus stop across the road from the church. I don't know what started it, but someone suddenly called out, "OK then, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?"
At that signal, all eyes turned to Tony, who was slightly older than the rest of us. Being the altar boy, he was also closer to the vicar, therefore closer to God, he would know the answer!
"That's easy," Tony announced confidently, "Good people go to heaven, and bad people go to hell."

As Tony spoke those words, I was lost in another personal encounter with God.
As my head had turned to watch what was going on, my eyes had panned across the church building. It was suddenly as if a blanket of truth had descended upon me and covered me, and I clearly heard a distinct whisper in my spirit."Tony is absolutely wrong, because I am bad, everybody is bad, but God has made the way." And then from the Lord himself, "And I don't live in the church, I live within your heart!"

God had spoken, and it was a settled fact that God lived within me. There was no debate in my heart.
I never told anyone what I had happened.
From what the Lord had said, I took it that he didn't dwell in the church! Therefore from that time on, church became an irrelevance to me and I stopped going. Bearing in mind the uselessness of that Anglican establishment, maybe that wasn't a bad idea.
In my four young years there I don't recall hearing the gospel.

Although God had spoken, I didn't know any Christians and I didn't know what to make of it, so it remained a seed slowly growing amongst many many weeds and stones. I also did a good job of planting more weeds over the next few years.

In my mid twenties, I decided to do another full time college course to become a teacher, but not long after arriving at the distant college, I was knobbled by the "God squad".
Initially I didn't mind too much because I enjoyed baiting them and they made good coffee. However I had no intention of falling for their evangelistic zeal because I knew that God didn't live in the church. However, after a week or two, their words got under my skin and I began to see that they were talking about the God I already knew. It didn't help my case when one of the came and told me that God had told her that I had made a commitment to the Lord as a child! My cover was blown wide open and thus I soon "became a Christian."
Only then did I hear the gospel.
Shortly after that, I was baptised, maybe fifteen years after asking the Lord into my life as a child.

I know that I was born again as a child. I know that his life was within me. You don't hear the voice of the Lord telling you that if it ain't true!
I was a son of my heavenly Father who didn't forget me, who watched over me and guided me back to him as I grew up.

 

[Major]

The Bible says that people will only believe the Gospel if God opens up their heart to it. If God has not opened up their heart to the Gospel, how can they be punished for unbelief? It's not a choice. Someone told me that God has opened up everyone's heart, but if that were the case, then more than half of the world, in fact, almost the entire world, would be Christians, because almost the entire world has heard the Gospel. If unbelievers don't believe because their heart is hardened, and their heart is hardened because God didn't open up their heart, how can they be blamed for unbelief? Something doesn't add up.

You my little brother are broaching one of the most difficult subjects in all of the Scriptures........Election/Predestination.
IT has and allways will cause debate but I will try and see if I can present to you in an understandable way.

There verses after verses on this but I will just use a couple with Ephesians 1:5 telling us that God..............
“predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”

According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.

In Ephesians 1:11 we see that people are “chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

Then in In John 10:26, Jesus said......................
“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”

Is that a contradiction from the other verses posted. NO! So then to answer your question...........
The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for “adoption as sons in Christ Jesus” before they ever existed. The reason one person believes and another person does not is that one person has been adopted by God and the other has not.

The truth is that the word "foreknew" in Romans 8 is not speaking of God's knowing the future. The word foreknowledge is never used in terms of knowing about future events, times or actions which is God’s omniscience. What it does describe is a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God whereby God brings the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time.

God knew His elect in a personal way and chose them to be His sheep, not because they would someday follow Him but in order to guarantee that they would follow Him. His knowing them and choosing them is the reason they follow Him, not the other way around. The issue really is not whether or not God knows who will believe, but why some believe and others do not. The answer to that is God chooses to have mercy on some and others He leaves in their sinful rebellion.

I can tell you that this teaching will cause a firestorm but I am only concerned that it speaks to your question and helps you to understand the program of God.