Something does not add up

Jesus does appear to those who call on his name even if they had no idea who this Jesus person but just know his name.

There are testimonies.
Study romans also it will tell you.
Since God made us, he knows which ones will love him and who will reject him but he gives everyone a choice. Satan wants to steal souls too, and will try and blind people to the gospel at every chance hes got.
Where there is light, darkness has to flee and people are exposed. I think Juk you worrying about something that need not concern you..the gospel is written in the stars and all of creation is testimony to a creator. Most people know deep down there is a God and that we are subject to Him.

Sometimes its hard to get through to ppl about Jesus cos their hearts are hard and they not lostening or hearing. Dont worry about it, shake the dust off your feet and move on.
God can see those who are lost and genuinly need him, just as he can see those whos hearts are stony and those compeltely given over to the enemy. He will do what is right. We just do our bit.
 
Euphemia said:
The idea of parallel railway lines is meaningless, IMO.
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I think it's just meant to convey that the thoughts of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are perfectly compatible with each other - they're two separate thoughts, but they run alongside each other. Calvinism holds the side of sovereignty to the exclusion of responsibility, Arminianism holds responsibility to the exclusion of sovereignty. "Reprobation" versus "Free Will". We have to have both thoughts if we're to understand how God deals with man regarding salvation. If we have one or the other, we only get a half-truth. A train won't get far on a track with only one rail!
 
People are conflating two different terminologies here.
1)
"Born again" is what happens the moment your human spirit opens up to the impregnation of the seed/sperm of the Holy Spirit. From that point on, an irreversible new life starts.
Yes, my deliberate use of the word "impregnation" implies a "sexual" encounter in the realm of the spirit. That fact must apply for men, women, and children, for without impregnation of the Spirit, there would be no new birth in the spirit!
We witness this described in scripture.-
1John3v 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed (sperma) abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

2)
"Salvation" is the continuous process of transformation that follows on from our new birth.
To the Jew, the word "salvation" always meant deliverance from Philistine Famine and Plague. Salvation did not in general terms mean heaven when you are dead. The latter interpretation is an aberration that has come in from evangelism.
The gospel that Jesus preached was, "The kingdom of heaven is nigh unto you." In other words, here and now.
In complete contrast to Jesus, the gospel generally preached today says, "You get into the kingdom of heaven when you die." In other words, it doesn't happen for a long long time.

That is why people like me and my wife, entirely separately and without knowing the first thing about the crucifixion, could experience being born again as children in non believing families. We had little experience of the earthly benefits of that salvation till we began to take hold of the reality of the cross as adults. In the mean time had we died, we would have gone home to our Heavenly Father.

We can see this in scripture.-
Mark10v13People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.15Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”16And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.

Completely disregarding what Jesus says here, theologians and evangelists don't want us to be like little children when we come to Christ. They insist that we must be educated to a minimum standard regarding the crucifixion before they agree we can be born again!

This theology becomes even more bizarre when scripture makes it clear that unbelievers cannot possibly understand the message of the cross!
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Did you read that word, foolishness, foolishness, foolishness, foolishness.... ad infinitum. What on earth are we playing at here?

So according to the evangelist, before being born again we must understand/confess the cross, but scripture tells us that we cannot understand/confess the cross until after we are born again!!!!

That is what you Americans call a "Catch 22 situation" is it not?

Did you understand what 1Cor1v18 means? New birth by the Spirit must precede any possible understanding of what the cross is about. Dead men cannot understand the cross, and all men are dead until reborn!
i1Cor1v18 also tells us that the message of the cross is about the power of God for the saints. ie. understanding the cross is not relevant for unbelievers!
I know that people frequently "get saved" during evangelical campaigns when the cross is preached, but according to scripture, the Holy Spirit got their first.
 
Grant Melville said:
I think it's just meant to convey that the thoughts of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are perfectly compatible with each other - they're two separate thoughts, but they run alongside each other. Calvinism holds the side of sovereignty to the exclusion of responsibility, Arminianism holds responsibility to the exclusion of sovereignty. "Reprobation" versus "Free Will". We have to have both thoughts if we're to understand how God deals with man regarding salvation. If we have one or the other, we only get a half-truth. A train won't get far on a track with only one rail!
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I have no need of any "ism", thanks! Knowing Jesus and walking in His ways is more than enough for me without getting hung up on religion.
 
Grant Melville said:
I think it's just meant to convey that the thoughts of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are perfectly compatible with each other - they're two separate thoughts, but they run alongside each other. Calvinism holds the side of sovereignty to the exclusion of responsibility, Arminianism holds responsibility to the exclusion of sovereignty. "Reprobation" versus "Free Will". We have to have both thoughts if we're to understand how God deals with man regarding salvation. If we have one or the other, we only get a half-truth. A train won't get far on a track with only one rail!
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The analogy of the two tracks is excellent.

God of the universe cannot be put in a box and yet mankind right now has full free will to accept or reject.

Much like His omniscience and His ''goodness'' run side by side. He knows all but at the same time He cannot be evil.
 
Fish_of_Faith said:
Staff Reminder
Calvinism is a prohibited topic; do NOT discuss it.
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Sorry, Fish of Faith! :whistle:

Euphemia said:
I have no need of any "ism", thanks! Knowing Jesus and walking in His ways is more than enough for me without getting hung up on religion.
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A hearty 'amen' to that! "Detestable isms", as C.H. Mackintosh called them.

KingJ said:
God of the universe cannot be put in a box and yet mankind right now has full free will to accept or reject.

Much like His omniscience and His ''goodness'' run side by side. He knows all but at the same time He cannot be evil.
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Absolutely... it's hard for our finite minds really to take it in.
 
Calvinism sounds like you havent washed your undies in a while. Sorry. I dont wear calvin kleins.

Get some fresh ones, and stop worrying about it.
If it doesnt add up, you made a mistake, not God. Read your bible again and make sure its not a corrupted version, you could have ones with holes in it.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Bro Dave,

If it were true that GOD MADE SOME to be saved and some not to be saved then we would not need to spread His truth for those he made to be saved would be saved.

Blessings
Jim
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True, all he plans to save absolutely will be saved. It is guaranteed (John 6:37). Their names are recorded. We cannot argue with the way He designed the execution of his salvation plan. He designed it so we can have a role in it. Not only that but as a truly saved individual we should naturally have a strong desire to spread the word and talk about God anyway. The fact is He decided who to save before the foundation of the world. Salvation comes at some point in a person’s life after “hearing” the word of God.

Hearing means a person is at some point exposed to the Gospel. Hearing does not mean understanding or even hearing through our physical ears. It is a spiritual hearing when God applies the word to a person’s heart. This is why a newborn baby (we are wicked from the womb Ps 58:3), a deaf person or someone with mental problems can be saved.

True belief is more than a intellectual understanding and acceptance. The evil spirits KNOW Jesus. They believe he exists, is the Son of God and even fell down before him (Mar 1:24, 3:11) .Yet they are not saved. They are condemned because God will not save them.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The word Have here can also be said Desires

It is up to every man to make the choice. There is NOT now nor will there ever be only a set number or select bunch that can be saved.
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What about Paul? He made a choice and was way off until God corrected him. If God did not intervene Paul would not have been saved. What about Cain and Abel.? They both had the same exposure to God and His word. They both brought offerings to God but God only accepted Abels. Cain was not one of God's chosen.

True God does desire all men to be saved. In fact He commands that we believe and do the will of God (Duet 6:5). But none of us will (Ro 3:10) unless He intervenes. (Ro 3:11). Before He saves us we are under the power of the prince of this world and will never choose God over our sin (Eph 2:2).He weeps over the lost (Phil 3:18). But never the less there are two group of people on earth. The saved whose names have been recorded in the lambs bo0k of life and the unsaved whose names are not written in the Lambs book (Rev 13:8)

Belief (mind, heart and soul) is a work of God.
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We cannot choose to have God save us like we cannot choose to reject our salvation either. We also cannot loose our salvation. Real belief and understanding can only be realized after God changes our heart.
 
I think we can choose to submit to God though. Even Paul, on the road to .damascus, had a choice, he was sufficiently humbled and convinced enough to surrender. He could have not, like Cain, denied any wrong doing.....

The amazing thing is God gave us the ability to choose. We are different from animals for example. They dont really have a notion of good and evil like we do.
 
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Possibly this discussion to move into doctrine part of the forum.
But again if something does not add up, maybe your working out is wrong. Its not cos God is wrong.
Also take into account, we have an adversary who likes to mess things up.
 
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Major said:
You my little brother are broaching one of the most difficult subjects in all of the Scriptures........Election/Predestination.
IT has and allways will cause debate but I will try and see if I can present to you in an understandable way.

There verses after verses on this but I will just use a couple with Ephesians 1:5 telling us that God..............
“predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”

According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.

In Ephesians 1:11 we see that people are “chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

Then in In John 10:26, Jesus said......................
“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”

Is that a contradiction from the other verses posted. NO! So then to answer your question...........
The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for “adoption as sons in Christ Jesus” before they ever existed. The reason one person believes and another person does not is that one person has been adopted by God and the other has not.

The truth is that the word "foreknew" in Romans 8 is not speaking of God's knowing the future. The word foreknowledge is never used in terms of knowing about future events, times or actions which is God’s omniscience. What it does describe is a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God whereby God brings the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time.

God knew His elect in a personal way and chose them to be His sheep, not because they would someday follow Him but in order to guarantee that they would follow Him. His knowing them and choosing them is the reason they follow Him, not the other way around. The issue really is not whether or not God knows who will believe, but why some believe and others do not. The answer to that is God chooses to have mercy on some and others He leaves in their sinful rebellion.

I can tell you that this teaching will cause a firestorm but I am only concerned that it speaks to your question and helps you to understand the program of God.
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But why would God even make people who will go to hell? He chose for them to go there. If what you are saying is true, then God chose for some people, and on top of that, most people, to go to hell. Eternal torture. It's not their fault if God didn't choose them.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Glomung and @Juk
There is a reason it is not stated in scripture - it is NOT TRUE
how can you say innocent pagans? Scripture says we all are as filthy rags before God.
There will be No Free Pass - No excuses - When God calls this done then His word went out to every nation and whole in the wall. NO one will be able to stand before Him and say I did not know. Every man will have had the choice.
Blessings
Jim
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But the thing is, what if they never heard the Gospel? How is it their fault?
 
Juk said:
But why would God even make people who will go to hell? He chose for them to go there. If what you are saying is true, then God chose for some people, and on top of that, most people, to go to hell. Eternal torture. It's not their fault if God didn't choose them.
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God is not forcing anyone to choose or sending anyone to hell. People go to hell because they fail to choose to believe in Jesus Christ. That is their freewill choice. God doesn’t force them to choose or to not choose, however God knows exactly who will and who will not choose and has disposed them to do so. I know this is a difficult concept but how can my tiny, finite brain explain the infinite mind of God? How can this be? My answer: I don’t know and who can know the mind of God anyway (Romans 11:33-34, 1 Corinthians 2:16 )?

Is it freewill or predestination? Yes! It is both freewill and predestination. Freewill and predestination are like two parallel lines that run together and never oppose one another. God planned these lines and ensured that they would run the exact pattern that they would but this doesn’t mean that He predestined those to reject Christ or predetermine to send them to hell. They made their own choice.http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-god-predestine-people-to-hell-a-bible-study/
 
Juk said:
But the thing is, what if they never heard the Gospel? How is it their fault?
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Suppose a person was lost underground in a dark cave and suddenly found a little lighted arrow pointed a certain direction. Whose fault would it be if he failed to follow it? Obviously his own. God’s “little arrows” are His revelation in man’s heart and nature. We can trust the good and loving Savior to bring the message of salvation to the one who seeks Him.

In life today, we have Christmas. Do you know of anyone who does not know about Christmas and what it represents?????

See, that holiday all by itself convicts the whole world because the world know what Christmas is.
 
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