So God predestined those who He knows will choose Him.
Something does not add up
- Thread starter Juk
- Start date
Jim said..........
"There is NOT now nor will there ever be only a set number or select bunch that can be saved."
Are you sure about that my brother????
Matt. 24:30-31........
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
Mark 13:26-27.........
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect [eklektos]--if that were possible… And he will send his angels and gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens".
Rev. 17:14.........
"They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen [eklektos] and faithful followers" .
As we can see in God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself.
Therefore, when Jesus says - “for the sake of the elect,” “to deceive even the elect” and “ they will gather his elect” - He is referring to all believers. Doesn't that give you the impression that there is indeed a set amount that God has elected?
If not, then why has someone been keeping a record????
Revelation 13:8 ..................
"And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. "
It certainly does to me. In fact, I think that is exactly why Jesus has not returned as of yet. God the Father is waiting for that one last person whom He has elected to hear and believe the gospel and then He is going to turn to His dear Son and tell Him to..........
GO GET YOUR CHILDREN AND BRING THEM HOME!
There are several reasons to believe that Paul was born again long before Jesus intervened on the road to Damascus, including what Paul says about himself knowing the Lord in his mother's womb.
Gal1v15But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb .....................
You admitted that much in your post No53- "Hearing means a person is at some point exposed to the Gospel. Hearing does not mean understanding or even hearing through our physical ears. It is a spiritual hearing when God applies the word to a person’s heart. This is why a newborn baby (we are wicked from the womb Ps 58:3), a deaf person or someone with mental problems can be saved."
I have testified elsewhere on this forum that I encountered the Lord and was born again as a child, maybe 15 years prior to anyone telling me what Jesus did on the cross. My wife also met the Lord and was born again as early as 3 years old, but again never heard the gospel till she was 18.
Thus along with Jeremiah, Isaiah, and others, it is distinctly likely that Paul was born again in the womb. Unfortunately he got waylaid by a perversion of religion which stunted his spiritual growth.
Also note that Paul was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel", which is very interesting because Gamaliel was the one Pharisee who defended Peter and the Apostles. Gamaliel's words to the Sanhedrin make it clear that in contrast to the other Pharisees, he thought the Apostles were doing God's work. Thus it seems that despite his rebellion against the work of the Holy Spirit, Paul's biggest influence was a real man of God.
That is why Jesus could intervene on the Damascus road, to bring a rebellious son back to fellowship!
God rejected Cain's offering because it was not a blood sacrifice. Both Cain and Abel would have known from Adam that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. Adam learned that principle when God slaughtered a lamb for him in the Garden of Eden, and placed the bloody skins over them to signify their deaths.
Take note that Abel kept sheep, but they were all still vegetarians till after the flood!
I find this hard to take seriously Major. The world doesn't know what Christmas means at all.
Christmas is one of the biggest deceptions on this planet that takes people's eyes completely away from the truth and focuses them on a mountain of pagan mythology, baubles and Santas.
You think Christmas is wonderful because you know what is hidden behind all the garbage. Non christians just see garbage and humbug and a time to have drunken fun and parties.
I remember once in Jerusalem talking to the waitress of a street cafe just as she was closing up for the night. It was around one of the times of the PLOs Intifadas and the atmosphere was very tense there.
I was trying to encourage her after she spoke of a personal tragedy, and told her that as a Christian I absolutely believed that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had given the land to her people in perpetuity.
Her response was, ".........................I can't understand why christians worship a man."
That is all she got from the two pagan celebrations of Christmas and Easter,.
Ohhh. I read your post wrong, then.
Romans 8:29-30
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
We are not predestined over others. It is known to God who will come and who will not, and to those who come to Christ, they are predestined to become like Jesus.
I praise God whenever you post: messages of love, kindness, and deep feeling. And you defend God's Word with a zeal for the Truth. Romans 8 is a very important passage of scripture and it dovetails with that passage in 1 John: 'God loved us before we loved him.'
Juk God did NOT make any one to go to hell. People mis speak on such things. The written word of God says He desires all men to be saved. Now then if God desires ALL men I must ask what men were left out to be made for hell that would not be included in ALL MEN ?
God Bless Me Brother and Welcome Back
Jim
In His written word Juk you can find it said God will call this done when His word has been preached in every nation.
You will find it said several times we are with no excuse.
Now with that said - think about your question and by the way - we must be talking about people after the cross.
God Bless
Ok true - God comes after His children or His select - The word select here does not mean in any way shape or form Predestined number as in God said you three can be saved and you four can not ever be saved. Brother dont even go there with me ... Wink
Bless You Major
What about the Gentiles in the Old Testament?
Jim....."select" is the word YOU used.
The word from the Scriptures I used was "ELECT". I think I can make this so that everyone will understand.
In 2 Thessalonians:2:13 we see..........
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".
Stay with me now. Being “chosen to salvation,” does not mean that one has been predestined for heaven. That in not my opinion but instead is Bible fact.
The Bible is full of scriptures which force us to understand that all of mankind has been “chosen to salvation” by the God who would “have all men to be saved...” as seen in
1 Tm 2:4.
Paul goes on to say that Jesus "who is “the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe” in 4:10, and whose Son “gave himself a ransom for all” in 2:6.
So then, if all have been chosen to salvation, why are all not saved? Christ said to His disciples in John 6:70-71.........
“Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas...that should betray him...”----Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
In verse 711 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Judas was one of those chosen to be a disciple, but through his own choice he did not fulfill that calling and is now in hell.
So then, it is clear to me and I hope to others that it is clear that being “chosen” to salvation does not bring salvation: one must still believe the gospel in order to be saved. So not only is predestination/election never said to be unto salvation, but Paul carefully separates predestination from salvation whether in its call, its justification, or its glorification which is what I see in the Scriptures.
You have once again missed the whole point. You have a real habit of adding words and thoughts to what others say.
I DID NOT say......
"You think Christmas is wonderful because you know what is hidden behind all the garbage."
My friend, I used Christmas as only ONE example of how God works. I would also say that Easter would be the same thing. The day itself poses to the world that something special happened on that day we call Christmas and Easter.
The day is about CHRIST and when His name is posed it always requires the question.....
"Whom do YOU say that I am".
The point I was making was confirmed by your lovely story while in Jerusalem. The waitress KNEW the word CHRISTIAN and that it came from one MAN CHRIST. That was your exact words. Therefore she is without excuse according to Romans 2:1.
If you can not take it seriousely, then so be it for you. That is your choice. This thread had nothing to do with Christmas but was about ELECTION. My point was that God places the way of salvation openly to all mean by events, special days and so on. God wants all men to be saved and has placed STOP signs all over creation to force their answer.
IMO, a tree growing in the woods convicts the pagan that he is subject to a God who created that tree and IMO that is exactly what Romans 1 tells us. NATURE itself convicts man and forces the pagan man to answer the question>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Who put that tree there? YOU????"
Romans 1:18-20..........
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse".
So then, not only does the word Christmas convict man of a God of creation, NATURE itself does the same thing.
What about the ones who did not have a revelation, if there are those who did not have a revelation? If I remember correctly, the Bible says that God rejected the Gentiles until the sacrifice of Jesus.
I have already answered this question clearly in post (No6) on this thread. Maybe you should read it again.
People will tell you different Juk, but from Adam and Eve onwards, every last person on this planet who opens their heart to the creator always becomes born again, ie. he is impregnated by the Spirit of God.
That is simply how it works from scripture, and also logically how it must have worked from the very beginning of mankind.
Every last one, if they had eternal hope must have had the New Birth from the Spirit of God, otherwise they were spiritually dead people who would have no inheritance in the Lord.
Paul confirms this-
1Corinthians15v50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Paul is telling us the facts of life for all time, not some new theology for Christians. It should be obvious to all that flesh and blood belong only in the physical realm whereas the reborn spirit of man inhabits the spiritual realm of Heaven.
There can be no argument that if the patriarchs and saints described in the OT (including those prior to Abraham's family) did not have the new birth of God in their human spirit, then they would remain spiritually dead, and would have absolutely no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven!
That includes all those from Adam to Noah, all those from Noah to Abraham, who were neither Jew, Israelite, nor gentile as those divisions didn't exist back then. It includes all those who were not descendants of Abraham. It includes Abel, it includes Enoch, it includes Rahab the Harlot, the only survivor of Jericho. It includes Jethro, Moses father in law, the priest of Midian.
Every last one born again of the Spirit of God and saved by faith just as Abraham was.
Now look at John chapter 3.
Bible teachers insist that in John 3 Jesus was initiating a brand new theology that would somehow only apply to Christians, but there is absolutely no justification in Jesus's words for such a notion. Jesus was simply explaining an eternal truth which had always been so.
1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
Teachers point out that this is the very first mention of anyone being "born again", but such an idea was already widely known and taught.
The Tribe of Israel was already God's chosen people and en route to heaven, so Pharisees taught that any non Jews wanting eternal life as part of the process of new birth into the Jewish inheritance of God must be ritually immersed (baptised) in water. Now Jesus is seriously rocking Nicodemus's theological boat!
4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Nicodemus is not expressing ignorance here, merely demanding an explanation to resolve the discrepancy between his inherited theology and what Jesus has just told him.
5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
This is an extremely serious problem for someone who already considers himself one of the chosen because of his physical birth as a Jew.
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Again, the theology of new birth was not a new theology. Unless all OT believers and all NT believers are born again, they remain spiritually dead.
New life always came and still comes when a heart was surrendered to its creator.
Until that new life of the spirit happens first, the theology of the cross will always be complete foolishness.
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
There we have it confirmed by Paul. To understand the cross, you first need to be born again!
Please provide the passage.
Romans1v18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.