The Assembly and the Bride

[Complete]

Yes, I was thinking of Hebrews 11:10 too. I was also thinking of Hebrews 11:40: "God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us." This would refer to the taking of the Church to be with Christ, and then her subsequent coming down from God. Abraham had some sense or intimation, by faith, of the taking up of the Church, before Israel would come into blessing.

Well, I don't think we're going to come to agreement on this, though I appreciate the spirit which you display, even in contradiction. For myself, I'm satisfied that the understanding I've always had of these scriptures is correct, and I've found that the ministry of J.N. Darby, F.E. Raven, C.A. Coates, J.A. Savage, J. Taylor (Snr) and others (in addition to recent ministry among the brethren with whom I walk in fellowship) all confirms and consolidates my scattered impressions on the subject. I would tend to trust the ministry of these servants of the Lord.

'For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.'
(Heb 11:10)
'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'
(Heb 11:39)

Hello again, @Grant Melville,

Yes, unfortunately, we do not see eye-to-eye on this matter.

The Book of Hebrews was written before the revelation given through Paul, by the ascended Lord, concerning the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. So it does not refer to that company. Knowledge of it having been 'hid' in God, until the time of it's revelation in the letters written by Paul, while in prison (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus and Philemon).

The reference in Hebrews refers to the Church which comprised the remnant of Israel, and gentiles grafted into the Olive tree of Israel during the Acts period, prior to the laying aside in unbelief of Israel (temporarily) at the end of the Acts. They along with those of like faith as that of Abraham, comprise the Bride, for they were faithful in their generation, and will join the ranks of those who overcome in the dispensation yet to come, as the Bride of the Lamb, who occupy the New Jerusalem.

The Church which is His Body is the company made up of both Jew and Gentile who are brought into Christ, quite apart from Israel, whose hope and blessings are not those of faithful Abraham. They do not look for a city, to come down out of heaven to the new earth, but will enjoy their 'spiritual blessings' in heavenly places, in Christ Jesus their Head (Eph. 1). This is the company I identify myself with.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CCW95A]

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1Pe 2:5 You also are like living stones, and God is using you to build a spiritual house. You are to serve God in this house as holy priests, offering him spiritual sacrifices that he will accept because of Jesus Christ.

The Heavenly New Jerusalem is made up spiritual beings, God Almighty, the Lamb, and the Church. God does not dwell on houses made with hands.
And yes a "door" is a "gate". Jesus Christ is the only way into this city as he is the gate. No man can come into this city except by him. No Apostle, no Old Testament tribe gives anybody access except Jesus Christ as he is the gate, the door into this city, also so known as "the gates of righteousness". Who is our righteousness?

Psa 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
Psa 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

Each gate is made up of what? One huge pearl. Who is the "pearl" of great price? What is his name?

 

[CCW95A]

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Who or what is the "tabernacle" of God in which God dwells? The Lord God lives in only one place, and has never lived in any other except this one place, and it is not a building made by man, or a physical city. Where does God dwell in his fullness? God dwells in his Word which is Jesus Christ, and he dwells there in his fullness. God's "body" is his Word, and guess who lives in there with him? We do, the Church. We are COMPLETE" in him!!!!!! God's temple, body, city is his Word (Jesus Christ), and we to are made up of that city sense he is our head and we are his body!!!! Who is in Christ? Where exactly did God translate us into?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Where does the New Jerusalem rest? Mount Zion!!! What is the "name of this Heavenly city"?

Psa 48:11 Let Mount Zion be glad! Let the daughters of Judah rejoice because of your judgments!
Psa 48:12 Walk about Zion, go around her, number her towers,
Psa 48:13 consider well her ramparts, go through her citadels, that you may tell the next generation
Psa 48:14 that this is God, our God forever and ever. He will guide us forever.

 

[Euphemia]

I hold to the truth that scripture is consistent with itself even as the Lord God is consistent with Himself. To that end then the Lord said he is a "door" not a gate . and as a shepherd LEADS his flock to find pasture .
Thus I endeavor not to mix what He has not.
Nor go beyond what he has not said .
In matters of the church it is as the GATES of hell that shall not prevail against it.
In matters of the sheep he is the DOOR and while I do not know all .This I do know that it is far better in the long run to keep to what the scriptures say in their consistency than to do otherwise .For if you do not it will lead to confusion sooner or later.

in Christ
gerald

Quibbling over words is now useless when one sees that the word, thura, means door as well as gate....just to avoid any confusion.

θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

 

[geralduk]

Quibbling over words is now useless when one sees that the word, thura, means door as well as gate....just to avoid any confusion.

θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

A door is not a gate .
In English.
and while I will not dispute the use of the THURA . That it can be gate or door . The reasons why the Lord used DOOR speaking of himself and GATE when speaking about the gates of hell . It is not me that is quibbling over words at all.
That is what the scripture says and I refuse , resist and reject the idea that the authority of scripture can be overturned by men who choose what is what by their understanding (?) of Greek or Hebrew and thus exchange the authority of scripture with the authority of men.

So you or any who lay claim that you can use either word will must or should explain why the Lord used door for one and gate for the other ?
Though perchance that is for another post entirely.

In Christ
gerald

 

[Euphemia]

A door is not a gate .
In English.
and while I will not dispute the use of the THURA . That it can be gate or door . The reasons why the Lord used DOOR speaking of himself and GATE when speaking about the gates of hell . It is not me that is quibbling over words at all.
That is what the scripture says and I refuse , resist and reject the idea that the authority of scripture can be overturned by men who choose what is what by their understanding (?) of Greek or Hebrew and thus exchange the authority of scripture with the authority of men.

So you or any who lay claim that you can use either word will must or should explain why the Lord used door for one and gate for the other ?
Though perchance that is for another post entirely.

In Christ
gerald

Yes, a gate is also a door.

 

[Abdicate]

A door is not a gate .
In English.
and while I will not dispute the use of the THURA . That it can be gate or door . The reasons why the Lord used DOOR speaking of himself and GATE when speaking about the gates of hell . It is not me that is quibbling over words at all.
That is what the scripture says and I refuse , resist and reject the idea that the authority of scripture can be overturned by men who choose what is what by their understanding (?) of Greek or Hebrew and thus exchange the authority of scripture with the authority of men.

So you or any who lay claim that you can use either word will must or should explain why the Lord used door for one and gate for the other ?
Though perchance that is for another post entirely.

In Christ
gerald

Jesus used θύρα and even that is suspect because evidence is growing and being discovered the gospels were written in Hebrew first not Greek. Still English has the world's largest vocabulary. In Spanish this word would be translated puerta of heaven and Jesus is the puerta. Don't split hairs when there's no hair to split.

 

[CCW95A]

Gal 4:25 So Hagar is like Mount Sinai in Arabia. She is a picture of the earthly Jewish city of Jerusalem. This city is a slave, and all its people are slaves to the law.
Gal 4:26 But the heavenly Jerusalem that is above is like the free woman, who is our mother.

Can a "city" gives birth to a child? Not unless this city is a living being!! We are born again by God's very own "seed" the Word of God.

 

[Abdicate]

The word "like" is used which means it's a simile not to be taken literally. "He was like a bar eating his stake." The guy isn't a bear...His actions are to be compared to a bears actions. Don't fret over translated words.

 

[geralduk]

Yes, a gate is also a door.

Here then is the snare on relying solely on the original language.
and while I will not dispute that the original language cane be one or the other. That has more to do with its limitations than it has with a perfect expression of the thought .

By your reasoning when is a gate a door?
A gate whether large or small pertains to the external wall .
The gates of hell , The gates of a city.
A door however is an internal door of a house or dwelling .

Jesus NEVER spoke of himself as a GATE . But as the door . and he speaks of the door of the church to which he is knocking on. Not the gate.
But he did speak of the "gates of hell"

So you will have to ; by the scriptures prove it can be either .

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

The word "like" is used which means it's a simile not to be taken literally. "He was like a bar eating his stake." The guy isn't a bear...His actions are to be compared to a bears actions. Don't fret over translated words.

he said "I am the door " ... of the sheep" John 10:7 He did not say i am like a door .
John 10:9 "I AM THE DOOR :by me if any man enter in........."

I dont fret I reject such bad translations as I do loose use of them.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Euphemia]

Here then is the snare on relying solely on the original language.
and while I will not dispute that the original language cane be one or the other. That has more to do with its limitations than it has with a perfect expression of the thought .

By your reasoning when is a gate a door?
A gate whether large or small pertains to the external wall .
The gates of hell , The gates of a city.
A door however is an internal door of a house or dwelling .

Jesus NEVER spoke of himself as a GATE . But as the door . and he speaks of the door of the church to which he is knocking on. Not the gate.
But he did speak of the "gates of hell"

So you will have to ; by the scriptures prove it can be either .

in Christ
gerald

There is no snare in making sure you understand the original languages. English is rife with synonyms.

Gate...door...it's the same word.

A gateway to a city is represented by the word, pulon.

πυλών
pulōn
poo-lone'
From G4439; a gateway, door way or a building or city; by implication a portal or vestibule: - gate, porch.

 

[geralduk]

Jesus used θύρα and even that is suspect because evidence is growing and being discovered the gospels were written in Hebrew first not Greek. Still English has the world's largest vocabulary. In Spanish this word would be translated puerta of heaven and Jesus is the puerta. Don't split hairs when there's no hair to split.

Jesus is not the door of heaven either .
Its lazy theology that has made him the door of it .
"No man comes unto the father accept by me"
The objective of a child of God is NOT heaven.to which is said Jesus is the door of it .

I would also suspect much if not all of 'modern ' evidence. Given that the church is in a reverse reformation and desires to be so like the world all things are counted equal.
and given the "better understanding" that all new versions boast in but show grave lack of it .Then I will stay with what the scriptures actually say rather than it can mean any and anything ,

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

There is no snare in making sure you understand the original languages. English is rife with synonyms.

Gate...door...it's the same word.

Then you do not understand English as you think you do. or rather its application.
Tell me is God a Jew? or an Arab? or indeed and Englishman?
That he should be bound to one langauge of man?
For God being not a man as it were must have his won langauge.
What are words if not expressions of thought?
Then if the original langage can mean a door or a gate .They cannot be both . For a gate is not a door.
A gate is on an external wall . Even as the gates of a city or the gates to your house .
It is the house that has doors .Not the walls of the city .

In Christ
gerald

 

[Euphemia]

Then you do not understand English as you think you do. or rather its application.
Tell me is God a Jew? or an Arab? or indeed and Englishman?
That he should be bound to one langauge of man?
For God being not a man as it were must have his won langauge.
What are words if not expressions of thought?
Then if the original langage can mean a door or a gate .They cannot be both . For a gate is not a door.
A gate is on an external wall . Even as the gates of a city or the gates to your house .
It is the house that has doors .Not the walls of the city .

In Christ
gerald

I make it a point to understand by the gentle leading of Holy Spirit. He tells me a gate is also a kind of door. It's obvious when you see one. In keeping with the subject of a pasture, and agriculture, pastures have gates or doorways.

 

[geralduk]

There is no snare in making sure you understand the original languages. English is rife with synonyms.

Gate...door...it's the same word.

It is no snare to me to learn anything of the original langauge.
For I do not rely on my understanding alone even of English to understand the scriptures.
Nor do I hold any confidence in those who boast ONLY in their understanding of the original langauge .
I see that such a knowledge did not profit Saul of Tarsus much nor indeed the pharassess etc who l,ooked down on the "unlearned and ignorant " Peter James and John .

By their understanding of the texts they said "We know this man Jesus is a sinner" The only man who was not!

So understandign the original texts did not profit them either .
So why should any man make so much boast in them to day?
Learn by all means .But understand that it does not guarentee you will understand the scriptures as they should be at all.

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

I make it a point to understand by the gentle leading of Holy Spirit. He tells me a gate is also a kind of door. It's obvious when you see one. In keeping with the subject of a pasture, and agriculture, pastures have gates or doorways.

A field or a pasture has a GATE it never has a door .
A door is nigh on always fixed to a house .

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is ignorant of such matters.
I claim no infallibility . If I am wrong give proof that a feild or pasture as a door.
I have never heard of or seen such a thing.

Jesus said "I AM THE DOOR " he did not say I am a kind of gate .
He did not even say I am a kind of door!

in Christ
gerald

 

[Euphemia]

It is no snare to me to learn anything of the original langauge.
For I do not rely on my understanding alone even of English to understand the scriptures.
Nor do I hold any confidence in those who boast ONLY in their understanding of the original langauge .
I see that such a knowledge did not profit Saul of Tarsus much nor indeed the pharassess etc who l,ooked down on the "unlearned and ignorant " Peter James and John .

By their understanding of the texts they said "We know this man Jesus is a sinner" The only man who was not!

So understandign the original texts did not profit them either .
So why should any man make so much boast in them to day?
Learn by all means .But understand that it does not guarentee you will understand the scriptures as they should be at all.

in Christ
gerald

Just who is it that is boasting, here?

 

[Euphemia]

A field or a pasture has a GATE it never has a door .
A door is nigh on always fixed to a house .

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is ignorant of such matters.
I claim no infallibility . If I am wrong give proof that a feild or pasture as a door.
I have never heard of or seen such a thing.

Jesus said "I AM THE DOOR " he did not say I am a kind of gate .
He did not even say I am a kind of door!

in Christ
gerald

It is a minuscule matter. The word for door and gate is the same. You can call it whatever you wish in English.

Jesus also says, "I am the way."

 

[CCW95A]

What are we to do with this scripture? Simply believe it.

John 10:9.. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. (NIV)