The Assembly and the Bride

What do you consider more important, the original word in which scripture is written, or the author who spoke it. Which of these two hold the answer to its meaning?

There is the BODY of truth which are the scriptures .
Then there is the SPIRIT of truth which is the Holy Spirit .
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable for reproof ,correction and instruction in rightoeusness......." 2 Tim 3:16.

The LETTER killeth but the Spirit giveth life.Or as it is written "...who also has made us able ministers of the new testement;not of the letter ,but of the spirit,for the letetr killeth but the spirit giveth life" 2 Cor 3:6
it is an indisputable fact that no mans words are either heard or even understood unless that man gives his breath or life to his words . How much the more then is God neither heard or understood by the letter only?

If all scripture was and is given by inspiration of God by the Spirit then it is a certainty that the self same scriptures that were so inspired by the Spirit of God is also needed to understand what he so inspired and was written.
For what knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man? Likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the Spirit of God? or as it is written "for what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God" 1Cor 2:11.
There are many men and by the same measure then there are many opinions about this or that .
But there is only one God and one Spirit of God . Therefore any understanding we may receive or have if it is true is of God also and came not by our own abilities intelllectual or otherwise but by the Spirit of God .
In Eph it speaks of "all coming to a unity of the faith" As faith comes by hearing and by that understanding the Word of God .Then it is clear that to have a unity of THE faith there needs must also be a unity of understanding also .

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,unto a perfect man, unto the measure and the stature and the fullness of Christ" Eph 4:13
Did not Paul also say "to be of the same mind........." Romans 12 16.
For who hath know the mind of the Lord that we may instruct him,but we have the mind of Christ" 1Cor 2:16.
Are we not to have our lives transformed by what? "The renewal of our minds"
What mind then or interpretation of scripture are we then to have? If not according to the mind of Christ? or of God .
For what are words? if not the expression of thoughts.
It is the right understanding of a mans words that we mkight then understand his thinking or in effect "see" what he sees .
The purpose of the Word of God the scriptures is that we by Him might see things as God sees things .
It was because Eve rejected the truth and believed the lie that her mind was darkened and she not only became blind to the truth so that her perceptions were wrong but her reasoning was in consequence also wrong . For she SAW that the tree was good to eat and she reasoned thus it would make her wise .
No wonder we are called to be renewed in our minds .

You may think I have left off your question. Not a bit of it .
But no man suddenly arrives at the truth .Though it might seem like that at the time . But rather he is led or arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth,till or as we mentioned before we all come to a unity of the truth of the faith .
It is the good shepherd of our souls who "knows the mind of God" that leads us first to a knowledge of the truth about our own condition and need to repent ,Who then leads us to the Lord who we did not know and through him our salvation.
But he who was faithful in the beginning is also faithful till the end and will if we are willing to lead us also into "all truth"
We cannot therefore by the letter be it in Greek or Hebrew or English know the truth as it should be known .
and that knowing is the same as when a husband knows his wife . Or as it is written "And Adan knew his wife eve ...... " Gen 4:1

You asked what is more important the original word in which the scripture was written............?
let me ask you something .
What understanding did Saul of Tarsus have of the scriptures? in the original word and texts that was written?
Despite studying those texts and Hebrew his mother tounge he not only did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and agree with Stephens death thinkign it was Gods will.
What understanding of those texts and original language did many of the Pharasses and Saducees etc ?
They so did not understand the scriptures despite Hebrew being their mother tounge that they opposed the Lord all the way down the line and in the end sent him to his death and thought they did Gods will.
So you tell me what is more important?

What is more important? The Body of truth or the Spirit of truth?
is God divided?
Yet men separate the word of God from the one who spake it or inspired it and think by their Hebrew and Greek they will knwo the things of God or the truth.
Someone may say but we are BORN again! True that may be .But then why does Paul say to christians to eb renewed in your minds?
Because a man is a tripart being.
The body is redeemed and ready to be revealed at the right time . But it is still subject to sin and death.
The mind has to be renewed even as the we are BORN again in the spirit .
The tabernacle made with hands was set up from the inside out. That is to say .The most Holy place where the ark of the covenant was set up first.Then everything was built around it or upon it .
So too then the tabernacle not made with hands .
God commands the light to shine in the darkness of our hearts and in THAT light we are then to walk by and our lives progressively transformed.
Clothed with the white linen of the righteousness of God .

What is more important? In the beginning was the Word"
When men are in dispute about anything .They go to what is written.
and in matters of sound doctrine and the foundations of faith then the scriptures are the only authority.
But then I say to you why was it recognised that Jesus spoke with authority and the religious leaders did not? Mathew 7:29.

He spoke with authority for a number of reasons.
One he was filled with the Spirit of God as much as he was filled with the Word of God .
Two, he had been tried tested and proved in the wilderness for 40 days .
Not only had he been tried tested and proved but the Word of God had also .
is it not written "Behold I have refined thee ,not with silver but I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction" Isiah 48 10.
and in the Psalms as of refined gold.
A professor who sits on the beach and refuses to take his shoes off knows nothing . Yet he may speak much about the sea.
But little children know more about the nature of the sea when they are paddling and squealing with delight with each wave going over their feet than the professor .
But young men who are now up to their waste and are a little afraid but do not show it .For they feel the power of the sea against them and know to some degree how much it could destroy them.
But there are others who have taken their feet of the bottom and have learnt to swim and have found how much that power is able to bear them up .
What sayeth the scriptures?
There are "waters up to the ankles , up to the loins and waters to swim in"

Knowing Hebrew and Greek while it can or might be profitable .Is no guarentee at all that you may understand the scriptures .
In truth there is a snare to the unwary that you lean more upon your understanding of them than to trust in the \Lord who is promised to lead us into all truth .
The testimony of Saul of Tarsus and others bares witness to it .

in Christ
gerald
 
I have never seen anyone so obsessed with the difference between a "door" or a "gate". Are you more smarter than the translators of the NIV Bible? Maybe you should translate your own Bible.

Joh 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. (NIV)

I am obsessed if you want to call it with the truth.
I am no translator . But there are better translations than the NIV.
Yet you make no attempt to explain why door is used in one place and gates in the other .Nor show or prove what original language words is used in either .

You and others have simply asserted the claim that the original word in that verse can be either .
Yet you do not prove or test what you assert at all by other scripture .
I am quite satisfied with the Bible I have thank you .As I have proved tried and tested it and never found it wanting .

in Christ
gerald
 
They so did not understand the scriptures despite Hebrew being their mother tounge that they opposed the Lord all the way down the line and in the end sent him to his death and thought they did Gods will.
So, I guess you are agreeing with me that studying the "original" word does not guarantee truth to be learned. It has to be the "anointing" that teaches us all things. No amount of logical, reason, or analytical thinking can ever can ever discover truth.
 
What is more important? The Body of truth or the Spirit of truth?
is God divided?
Number one, Jesus gives us the order in which truth is discovered.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

(1) you hear the Father
(2) The Father teaches you something.
(3) Only then do go to the Word of God (Jesus) in which God confirms what he has taught you.
(4) The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth.

If you deviate from this then you are on your own, and all you have is you carnal natural mind in trying to find truth. Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What is this scripture telling us? If you do not have a face to face relationship with God the Father through prayer, you will never lean truth, no matter how long you study it.
 
John 10:9 "I am the door,by me if any man enter in,he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture" KJV.

It would seem that the translators of the NIV are as confused as to what is a gate and what is a door for the same reasons.Their over reliance on their knowledge or understanding of the original language rather than HE who leads us into all truth .

If then you can show that a door is the same as a gate in English and explain why the Lord used DOOR when speaking of himself and gate as in the gates of hell and with your explanation of what is a gate and what is a door that harmonises with both .Then I would listen to you in this matter .

In Christ
gerald
It's not a bible version that is seeking to confuse.
 
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Again KJV > I am the DOOR .
The same reason you think a gate is a door is due to the fact that the translators of the NIV mistranslated it .

I simply believe it.
I also know that a door is not a gate . For a gate is on an external wall in nigh on all cases .
A door is to a house or in one.

in Christ
gerald
Funny. I don't use the NIV. The word is still door or gate. Take your pick.
 
Its surprising how little leaven you need to change thew whole lump .

I do not dispute that the word is the same for one or the other .That does not mean that a door or a gate is the same thing .

The Word of God is not fro my own interpretation or indeed my own translation.

What are words? If not expressions of thought .

You are simply asserting what you think but do not even look at the differences between a gate and door .
You then base your authority on your understanding of the original langauge . I do not .I simply base it on the truth . or the Spirit of truth that inspired men to so write it .
A very different proposition.

Jesus said I am the way because he IS the way .
For you need to consider the context in which he said that .It was in reply to his disciples to demand for the Lord to show them the way .
When Mary said she believed that the Lord would raise him up at the last day or the day of the resurection . He replied to her "I am the ressurection ....."
When one of the disciples said to Him "show us the father " He replied "Have I been with you so long that you do not know me......."

in Christ
gerald
You are simply letting a synonym serve as a mountain to block your clear understanding.
 
Trusting in the Lord is in what the Lord says to our heart when we are in his presence to what scripture says, not what our carnal logical minds reason scripture to say. These two are not compatible to each other, and are opposed completely. If we relied on our own physical minds to discern truth from error, then only the logically smart people would have the truth, which is what scripture debunks.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

Trusting in the Lord is in what the Lord says to our heart when we are in his presence to what scripture says, not what our carnal logical minds reason scripture to say. These two are not compatible to each other, and are opposed completely. If we relied on our own physical minds to discern truth from error, then only the logically smart people would have the truth, which is what scripture debunks.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

With all due respect the only thing that is revealed is that the word in the original text can be used either for a door or a gate.
The other thing that is revealed is how badly some versions are translated and are not consistant with all scripture .
It also has revealed that by leaning on ones own knowledge of Greek or Hebrew rather than trusting the Lord to lead you into all truth . What should be a simply matter has become a stuck not on semantics or meaningless words . But on a alck of understanding of what a gate is and a door .
I am presuming that the posters are all English speakers and that English is the mother tounge?
God does not mean us to throw away our minds .He simply says that it is to be renewed and our intillects put in its right palce ,That is to be subject to the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
For the interlect in of and by itself is a false light .

in Christ
gerald
 
You are simply letting a synonym serve as a mountain to block your clear understanding.

I will stand by what I have said and will remain to do so .Unless you or others can answer my objections and prove yours.
simply asserting that the original langauage can mean one or the other ,Neither proves you should put one instead or the other ,Or undermines my objections .


in Christ
gerald
 
With all due respect the only thing that is revealed is that the word in the original text can be used either for a door or a gate.
The other thing that is revealed is how badly some versions are translated and are not consistant with all scripture .
It also has revealed that by leaning on ones own knowledge of Greek or Hebrew rather than trusting the Lord to lead you into all truth . What should be a simply matter has become a stuck not on semantics or meaningless words . But on a alck of understanding of what a gate is and a door .
I am presuming that the posters are all English speakers and that English is the mother tounge?
God does not mean us to throw away our minds .He simply says that it is to be renewed and our intillects put in its right palce ,That is to be subject to the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
For the interlect in of and by itself is a false light .

in Christ
gerald
Remember, the un renewed carnal mind is the "enemy" of God because it is not subject to the laws of God. It can not nor will it ever hear from the Spirit of God for all scripture is discerned by the "heart" of man, not his brain.
 
I don't either use the NIV very often, as I prefer the ESV, and or the KJV mostly.

and by what criteria do you choose one over the other ?
For the Bible is not my words but Gods .
If you say both then you are simply wrong .
On two accounts .
1) a gate is not a door .
2) the scriptures do not interchange them. Examples already given.

in Christ
gerald
 
Remember, the un renewed carnal mind is the "enemy" of God because it is not subject to the laws of God. It can not nor will it ever hear from the Spirit of God for all scripture is discerned by the "heart" of man, not his brain.

The canal mind cannot receive the things of God.
Not disputed ,denied and but believed and know .
The second part is foolish.
For man is a tripart being and all three 'parts ' should be in harmony with each and with God "wholy sanctified"
The mind is needed as it is the part between body and spirit .In evil we are to be as children in understanding men.
The mind is to eb subject to the Spirit .The spirit can grasp things quicker than the mind ,That does not mean we should not then seek the understanding of the mind where possible to be in harmony with the spirit .
The mind has to be satisfied as much as the spirit should be .
With the heart man believeth with the toung confession is made unto salvation.You cannot speak or should not speak unless the brain is in gear .
What you believe in your heart then is then "fully persuaded" by the mind and confession si made .
The mind has its limits .But most people here it seems are persauded by the idea that their understanding of Greek and Hebrew (which is of the mind) gives them an understanding of scripture .Inspired by God .
in Christ
gerald
 
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What do you not understand?
Show me where Jesus is the door of heaven? let alone gate .

in Christ
gerald
He is everything, no one goes to the Father except through Jesus.

*[[Joh 14:6]] KJV* Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​
 
With all due respect the only thing that is revealed is that the word in the original text can be used either for a door or a gate.
The other thing that is revealed is how badly some versions are translated and are not consistant with all scripture .
It also has revealed that by leaning on ones own knowledge of Greek or Hebrew rather than trusting the Lord to lead you into all truth . What should be a simply matter has become a stuck not on semantics or meaningless words . But on a alck of understanding of what a gate is and a door .
I am presuming that the posters are all English speakers and that English is the mother tounge?
God does not mean us to throw away our minds .He simply says that it is to be renewed and our intillects put in its right palce ,That is to be subject to the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
For the interlect in of and by itself is a false light .

in Christ
gerald

STRONGS
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare ?door?); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

NASEC
thura; a prim. word; a door: - door (28), doors (6), entrance (3), gate (1), gates (1).
 
and by what criteria do you choose one over the other ?
For the Bible is not my words but Gods .
If you say both then you are simply wrong .
On two accounts .
1) a gate is not a door .
2) the scriptures do not interchange them. Examples already given.

in Christ
gerald
the NIV is a "translation", not a "paraphrase" version.
 
Its surprising how little leaven you need to change thew whole lump .

I do not dispute that the word is the same for one or the other .That does not mean that a door or a gate is the same thing .

The Word of God is not fro my own interpretation or indeed my own translation.

What are words? If not expressions of thought .

You are simply asserting what you think but do not even look at the differences between a gate and door .
You then base your authority on your understanding of the original langauge . I do not .I simply base it on the truth . or the Spirit of truth that inspired men to so write it .
A very different proposition.

Jesus said I am the way because he IS the way .
For you need to consider the context in which he said that .It was in reply to his disciples to demand for the Lord to show them the way .
When Mary said she believed that the Lord would raise him up at the last day or the day of the resurection . He replied to her "I am the ressurection ....."
When one of the disciples said to Him "show us the father " He replied "Have I been with you so long that you do not know me......."

in Christ
gerald
There isn't any leaven in the known fact that thura means door or gate.
 
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A city has a wall. and the gates of such a city are the weakest point of the wall and so are the most heavily defended .
When Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it " I doubt very much if the word so used was as you say 'Pulon'
Yet you do not directly state that is the word used in this instance.
I would hazard the thought that its the same word as used in the verse "I am the door"
But I would be interested to know which or what word is used and the reference of it.

The gates of hell as mentioned in Matthew 16:18 is indeed the word, pulon.

Unless of course if you are asserting the error of Islam who think that only the Koran in Arabic is the true .
and that only the scriptures in the original texts and langauge are the true? Then you are gravely mistaken.
For as I pointed out to a Muslem once God is not an Arab.

Islam doesn't even enter into this discussion. Why do you bring it up?


For this post I would humbly suggest that you consider what is a gate and what is a door in your own mother tounge. first. Before you consider any langauge you have learnt later.

in Christ
gerald

A gate or door, used interchangeably, is simply a metaphor for ingress and egress.
 
I will stand by what I have said and will remain to do so .Unless you or others can answer my objections and prove yours.
simply asserting that the original langauage can mean one or the other ,Neither proves you should put one instead or the other ,Or undermines my objections .


in Christ
gerald

The original language is proof enough that either gate or door is applicable. You can argue until the cows come home, but that doesn't change anything. It just reveals a stubborn spirit.
 
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