The Bible And Me

Whether same sex attraction, in and of itself, is a sin, I do not know.
I do know that it is an unnatural attraction. In nature the purpose of attraction is mating, the purpose
of mating is offspring. Since same sex couples cannot produce offspring, it is an unnatural pairing.

The second issue is love versus lust. To this day I have never seen a single homosexual whose behaviors
were not completely driven by lust. If love is what you are after, then love 100, or 1000 or a million, but do not
attempt to parody sex with them. The truth of the matter is that two homosexuals cannot have sex, they do not
have a complete set of equipment between them. Then can parody sex through sodomy, or mutually masturbate
as lesbians do, but they cannot actually have sex.
 
here is what scripture says about "same sex" relations ..

OLD TESTAMENT

Gen 13:13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the LORD.
Gen 19:4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;
Gen 19:5 and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."
Gen 19:6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him,
Gen 19:7 and said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.
Gen 19:8 "Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof."
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Lev 18:22 ’You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 ’If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

NEW TESTAMENT

1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1Cr 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
 
My approach to this is that I have no idea what it's like to be gay. Is it a choice or something your'e born with? I'm in no way qualified to answer that question, and I suspect none of the rest of us here are either. So when a gay person tells me they were born that way and have never been any different, I believe them. I think it's the height of arrogance to tell someone you know their thoughts and feelings better than they do.

As for gay couples experiencing love, Glomung I think you need to pay closer attention. I know a gay couple that's been together for 15 years, has been totally monogamous, and from my perspective show as much genuine love for each other as any heterosexual couple I know. Similar to the above, I think it's the height of arrogance to tell them "You don't really love each other. Your relationship is merely about lust."

Doing that sort of thing only reinforces the perception many have of Christians as being judgmental, condescending, and bigoted.
 
I was speaking of what I have seen.
For others, their mileage may vary.
I used to be a regular at a bar right next to own of my old jobs.
The gays that occasionally showed up there tended to be pushy to the point of
obnoxious, and did not like taking NO for an answer.
 
RiverJordan said:
Unless it turns out that homosexuality is biologically based. And I've yet to meet a gay person who's said, "I was born straight, but decided to be gay". Every single one has been adamant that even from a young age, they've never had anything other than attraction for the same sex.

Who am I to tell them they're wrong? Am I actually going to say I know their thoughts and feelings better than they do?
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River as I have said before unless you can quote scripture and not your opinion which pretty much aligns with the devils rationale don't expect me to reply to you.
 
To obey God is a choice .. to disobey God is a choice ..
God only wants those who will obey Him and love Him ..

Jhn 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin

God does NOT sanctify marriage between same sex .. and all sex outside of marriage IS fornication (sin) .. therefore all same sex relations are SIN ..

Sexual Preference is psychological and sociologically induced .. aka environmentally learned behavior pattern .. Some societies had virtually NO homosexuality/lesbianism, while other societies embraced it .. If a guy has a sexual preference for girls with black hair and brown eyes, and only has sex with girls that look like that, does that mean he has a gene that dictates that ? or that he was born that way ? .. If a girl has a sexual preference for black men, and only has sex with black men, does that mean she has a gene that dictates that ? or was she was born that way ?

Sexual appetites or cravings are chemically induced, similar to hunger by means of hormones .. if a person is hungry and is mentally disciplined to what is good for their body, they will eat something healthy when they are hungry .. if a person is not mentally disciplined to what is good for their body, they will eat junk food when they are hungry ..
sex works in the same way, when our hormones make us sexually hungry, our choice to the stimulus depends on our learned behavior patterns .. Society unfortunately has the persuasive power over those who feel they must conform to be accepted .. this is extremely strong in young people (called peer pressure) and is carried on into adult life .. with the learned behavior pattern preached that homosexuality and lesbianism is "normal" and should be accepted by society (via schools tv etc)

There is no wonder that the amount of people that practice this anti-natural selection abnormality has increased 1000% in the last 50 years .. for example: how many tv programs showed homosexual/lesbian acts 50 years ago in a month ? .. how many tv programs show homosexual/lesbian acts last month ? .. I submit, exposure by environment creates homosexuals and lesbians .. thus society regulates the morality in our lives through learned behavior patterns .. I also submit that the whole rhetorical "gay gene" scenario (which was recently repealed by he APA) was created by gays and sympathizers who share a common problem .. that being undisciplined morality in which they seek to justify their sins as to seek to dispel their responsibility for them.

In support: are Child predators also born that way ???

if it is true a man cannot help wanting to have sex with a man .. then neither can a child predator help wanting to have sex with a child .. neither one can make a concious decision to embrace or over-ride an urge .. sorry .. but I do over-ride a decision to have sex outside of marriage, because I use my free will in my reasoning which creates the framework of my morality ..

the ability to reason is what places us above animals .. many would like us to believe we are on the same level as an animal .. and all of a sudden the ability to reason has disappeared ..

granted .. sometimes urges can be intense .. but we do have the ability (through reasoning) to make a free will choice to intensify our resistance to the urge ..

as a Christian, I acknowledge where some of these urges come from .. and the added acceptance of God's will for me .. this very much aids me in "re-enforcing" my self-constructed morality (aka self accepted behavior) ..

this is WHY our society punishes child predators .. because they do NOT try hard enough to resist the urge .. either we can resist if we choose to or cannot .. which is it ???

I have met (non-religious) people who were homosexuals for years and changed .. how is that possible ???

as I stated earlier .. homosexuals need to be honest with themselves and those around them and admit, that they choose NOT to resist the urge ..

to feel an urge, or to be tempted is NOT a sin (Jesus was tempted) .. to give in to that urge or temptation is .. it is not what goes into a man that defiles him .. but what he lets into his heart (aka accepted self behavior) ..

our society is telling us this type of behavior (homosexuality) is acceptable in our society and does not need to be regulated .. because they deem it "victimless" .. I think the subject needs more comprehension, compassion and social correction .. we are speaking about personal morality and social morality .. which in the Christian faith leads to life, by obeying God's will for us .. and an honest admission of free choice in the matter should be recognized by them and accepted by us as respecting the right of all to make free choices .. which God gave to all ..

if a family member of yours was involved in homosexuality .. would you shun them or try to help them ???

Jesus had a very interesting take on what is enumerated by God of those who didn't or couldn't follow His will for us .. it was a compassionate view of them, even though he did not condone it .. it was one of a "physician" ..

Mat 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners

therefore we also love the sinner, but hate the sin ..
the goal is to SIN NO MORE if you love God and if eternal life is your goal ..
 
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To obey God is a choice .. to disobey God is a choice ..
God only wants those who will obey Him and love Him ..

Jhn 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin

God does NOT sanctify marriage between same sex .. and all sex outside of marriage IS fornication (sin) .. therefore all same sex relations are SIN ..

Sexual Preference is psychological and sociologically induced .. aka environmentally learned behavior pattern .. Some societies had virtually NO homosexuality/lesbianism, while other societies embraced it .. If a guy has a sexual preference for girls with black hair and brown eyes, and only has sex with girls that look like that, does that mean he has a gene that dictates that ? or that he was born that way ? .. If a girl has a sexual preference for black men, and only has sex with black men, does that mean she has a gene that dictates that ? or was she was born that way ?

Sexual appetites or cravings are chemically induced, similar to hunger by means of hormones .. if a person is hungry and is mentally disciplined to what is good for their body, they will eat something healthy when they are hungry .. if a person is not mentally disciplined to what is good for their body, they will eat junk food when they are hungry ..
sex works in the same way, when our hormones make us sexually hungry, our choice to the stimulus depends on our learned behavior patterns .. Society unfortunately has the persuasive power over those who feel they must conform to be accepted .. this is extremely strong in young people (called peer pressure) and is carried on into adult life .. with the learned behavior pattern preached that homosexuality and lesbianism is "normal" and should be accepted by society (via schools tv etc)

There is no wonder that the amount of people that practice this anti-natural selection abnormality has increased 1000% in the last 50 years .. for example: how many tv programs showed homosexual/lesbian acts 50 years ago in a month ? .. how many tv programs show homosexual/lesbian acts last month ? .. I submit, exposure by environment creates homosexuals and lesbians .. thus society regulates the morality in our lives through learned behavior patterns .. I also submit that the whole rhetorical "gay gene" scenario (which was recently repealed by he APA) was created by gays and sympathizers who share a common problem .. that being undisciplined morality in which they seek to justify their sins as to seek to dispel their responsibility for them.

In support: are Child predators also born that way ???

if it is true a man cannot help wanting to have sex with a man .. then neither can a child predator help wanting to have sex with a child .. neither one can make a concious decision to embrace or over-ride an urge .. sorry .. but I do over-ride a decision to have sex with a hooker, because I use my free will in my reasoning which creates the framework of my morality ..

the ability to reason is what places us above animals .. many would like us to believe we are on the same level as an animal .. and all of a sudden the ability to reason has disappeared ..

granted .. sometimes urges can be intense .. but we do have the ability (through reasoning) to make a free will choice to intensify our resistance to the urge ..

as a Christian, I acknowledge where some of these urges come from .. and the added acceptance of God's will for me .. this very much aids me in "re-enforcing" my self-constructed morality (aka self accepted behavior) ..

this is WHY our society punishes child predators .. because they do NOT try hard enough to resist the urge .. either we can resist if we choose to or cannot .. which is it ???

I have met (non-religious) people who were homosexuals for years and changed .. how is that possible ???

as I stated earlier .. homosexuals need to be honest with themselves and those around them and admit, that they choose NOT to resist the urge ..

to feel an urge, or to be tempted is NOT a sin (Jesus was tempted) .. to give in to that urge or temptation is .. it is not what goes into a man that defiles him .. but what he lets into his heart (aka accepted self behavior) ..

our society is telling us this type of behavior (homosexuality) is acceptable in our society and does not need to be regulated .. because they deem it "victimless" .. I think the subject needs more comprehension, compassion and social correction .. we are speaking about personal morality and social morality .. which in the Christian faith leads to life, by obeying God's will for us .. and an honest admission of free choice in the matter should be recognized by them and accepted by us as respecting the right of all to make free choices .. which God gave to all ..

if a family member of yours was involved in homosexuality .. would you shun them or try to help them ???

Jesus had a very interesting take on what is enumerated by God of those who didn't or couldn't follow His will for us .. it was a compassionate view of them, even though he did not condone it .. it was one of a "physician" ..

Mat 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners

therefore we also love the sinner, but hate the sin ..
the goal is to SIN NO MORE if you love God and if eternal life is your goal ..
 
KingJ said:
River as I have said before unless you can quote scripture and not your opinion which pretty much aligns with the devils rationale don't expect me to reply to you.
Click to expand...

KingJ .. I am starting to wonder WHY is River here ..
"who am I to tell them they are wrong"

it is obvious to me, someone who does not love their fellow man enough to try and help them from eternal punishment ..
 
KingJ said:
River as I have said before unless you can quote scripture and not your opinion which pretty much aligns with the devils rationale don't expect me to reply to you.
Click to expand...

KingJ .. I am starting to wonder WHY is River here ..
"who am I to tell them they are wrong"

it is obvious to me, someone who does not love their fellow man enough to try and help them from eternal punishment ..
 
Glomung said:
I was speaking of what I have seen.
For others, their mileage may vary.
I used to be a regular at a bar right next to own of my old jobs.
The gays that occasionally showed up there tended to be pushy to the point of
obnoxious, and did not like taking NO for an answer.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've been to straight bars that are the same. I don't think "lustful" is a trait exclusive to any group.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
This has become a hotbutton issue among Christians in so many different ways.

1. Some Christians subscribe to the idea that homosexuality on every account is wrong because it is 100% choice. To even begin struggling with it is stepping into sin because it is a choice.

2. Some Christians hold the position that actually homosexuality isn't a sin at all, especially since it is not a choice. That Biblical accounts, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were actually speaking of hospitality and that homosexuality isn't a problem--lust is a problem.

3. Some Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin once it is put into practice. Lustful thoughts (without rejecting them) and actions of homosexuality is a sin, but these would be through choice. However, homosexuality neurologically speaking is more of a handicap that can be battled through prayer, support, will. (Not that it will change one to heterosexual, but like alcoholism still exists among recovering alcoholics, they can still work through it despite the disease being there). In other words, it is something one is born with, but that doesn't make it permissible to practice--it should still be rejected.

4. Some Christians believe that homosexuality is indeed a sin, however when someone close to them (like a son or daughter) comes out of the closet, it is suddenly not a sin because said person happens to be a Christian or a good person, etc.

And then there are Christians who hold these beliefs somewhere between each point.
Click to expand...
This is only a hot topic because mankind is evil. Mankind wants to be evil and still secure going to heaven. LS, we must not in the slightest be guilty of blurring this. OT = called it an abomination and Jewish law from Moses (from God) was to stone them. Then the warning from Paul is very interesting indeed!! He warns that not only those who do these acts, but those who approve of them that do it deserve death. Note as well that just like 1 Cor 5, he is warning us Christians and not the unsaved!!

Rom 1:24-32
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

We must not be guilty of ratifying this among our brothers and sisters. Helping someone into the fire is not helping them.

If we had to ignore scripture completely and use common sense we find that babies are exempt. Now we know that we are accountable for our actions after the age of understanding. Being homosexual is an action. Being feminine may not be. The two are unrelated!
 
KingJ said:
River as I have said before unless you can quote scripture and not your opinion which pretty much aligns with the devils rationale don't expect me to reply to you.
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Sure....paying attention to things around you and using your brain are in alignment with the devil....at least to you anyways. :rolleyes:
 
If we're speaking on our own experiences, I used to live in Dupont Circle in DC -- it has the biggest gay community in the city. My wife and I still in contact with a few of our old neighbors. Most of the people there are fairly young and treat relationships and sex with far less dignity than it deserves...in other words, they are like most people in today's culture unfortunately.

While monogamy is something to be promoting, that in itself isn't enough. Marriage, sex, communication, etc. etc. are all things to which need to be upheld in the highest degree.

I legitimately believe that homosexuals are born with a neurological defect. There have been strong evidence to believe that because the womb sometimes treats the fetus as a foreign object (especially when the fetus develops into a male since female technically the default gender before further development), the mother's body releases hormones for the baby's survival and health. This can sometimes release an excess which gives (let's say) the male fetus more feminine aspects. This is one explanation I've seen regarding where this neurological abnormality comes from.

My mom, a retired OBGYN, has expressed this is something that has been reviewed for years in strong connection to homosexuality.


BUT...just because sexual preference could be regarded as a born trait, this doesn't mean how they respond to this is not a choice--their response is indeed a choice. If this is indeed true, then this would mean chastity and refraining from a relationship would be a life-long endeavor and they would need to learn how to deal with it. For straight people who remain chaste, they have the hope of one day engaging in a loving relationship and becoming one with their spouse after marriage. Homosexuals wouldn't have the same kind of hope. This is why I have a lot of sympathy for homosexuals.

But speaking on black and white terms, relationships are ultimately meant for the potential of marriage, and marriage is a sacramental vocation under God's terms.

I don't think this is bigoted nor pandering to any sides. I think this is the truth. I could be wrong in some places, and I'm willing to listen to criticisms, but I don't think mere convenience is reason enough.
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
I legitimately believe that homosexuals are born with a neurological defect.
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This is one of the problems I see on this issue. Using terms like "defect" unmistakably gives a gay person the impression "there's something wrong with you", along the lines of having a disease or something. Now imagine yourself as a gay person who's always been attracted to members of the same sex, and who knows there's no way they can change. What do you think that person's reaction to being told by Christians "you're defective" will be? There's a reason suicide is much higher among gay teens, and the sort of rhetoric we see on this thread is a significant factor in that.

BUT...just because sexual preference could be regarded as a born trait, this doesn't mean how they choose to respond to this is not a choice. If this is indeed true, then this would mean chastity and refraining from a relationship would be a life-long endeavor and they would need to learn how to deal with it. For us straight people who remain chaste, they have the hope of one day engaging in a loving relationship and becoming one with their spouse after marriage. Homosexuals wouldn't have the same kind of hope. This is why I have a lot of sympathy for homosexuals.
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It's between them and God, not them, you, and God.

I don't think this is bigoted nor pandering to any sides. I think this is the truth. I could be wrong in some places, and I'm willing to listen to criticisms, but I don't think mere convenience is reason enough.
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It's not about convenience. It's about having empathy for your fellow human beings. In my experiences, many conservative Christians lack that ability.
 
RiverJordan said:
This is one of the problems I see on this issue. Using terms like "defect" unmistakably gives a gay person the impression "there's something wrong with you", along the lines of having a disease or something. Now imagine yourself as a gay person who's always been attracted to members of the same sex, and who knows there's no way they can change. What do you think that person's reaction to being told by Christians "you're defective" will be? There's a reason suicide is much higher among gay teens, and the sort of rhetoric we see on this thread is a significant factor in that.
Click to expand...

I have a neurological defect. I have epilepsy. I'm not using the term "defect" as a means to degrade homosexuals. I'm using it in a more factual way. Most homosexuals (at least who I've spoken to about this sincerely) would agree with me that the fact that they are in the minority regarding sexual preference, it is an abnormality. Most of them have expressed that if they could be straight, they would be. They don't consider it a gift.

We can call it a neurological difference if that helps.

RiverJordan said:
It's between them and God, not them, you, and God.
Click to expand...

I'm not getting involved. I think all are welcome to discuss in a forum.

RiverJordan said:
It's not about convenience. It's about having empathy for your fellow human beings. In my experiences, many conservative Christians lack that ability.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I can quite feel empathy only because I don't know what it's like to be gay. However, I have sympathy. In fact, I said that in post #53. Though perhaps I can feel empathy regarding the feeling of being an outsider in some respect. Perhaps not on the same level, and I wouldn't even attempt to "match it" out of respect.

What Conservative Christians choose to do, I can't force them to think differently.
 
RiverJordan
This is one of the problems I see on this issue. Using terms like "defect" unmistakably gives a gay person the impression "there's something wrong with you",

living contrary to God's will IS a defect ..

along the lines of having a disease or something. Now imagine yourself as a gay person who's always been attracted to members of the same sex, and who knows there's no way they can change.

that's where you err .. you legitimize their will to sin by that lie ..

What do you think that person's reaction to being told by Christians "you're defective" will be?

you are defective as a Christian if you teach to sin is ok ..

There's a reason suicide is much higher among gay teens, and the sort of rhetoric we see on this thread is a significant factor in that.

cite the survey which states that ..

It's between them and God, not them, you, and God.

Jesus says you are wrong, as does Paul ..
Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
1Ti 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

It's not about convenience. It's about having empathy for your fellow human beings. In my experiences, many conservative Christians lack that ability.

in my estimation it is YOU which lacks compassion knowing FULL WELL scripture says is an abomination to Him for YOU to allow them to continue without even trying to help them ..
 
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