The Bible And Me

[RiverJordan]

I have .. and they were not interested in following God's will ..

Gee, I wonder why.

 

[RiverJordan]

I have a neurological defect. I have epilepsy. I'm not using the term "defect" as a means to degrade homosexuals. I'm using it in a more factual way. Most homosexuals (at least who I've spoken to about this sincerely) would agree with me that the fact that they are in the minority regarding sexual preference, it is an abnormality. Most of them have expressed that if they could be straight, they would be. They don't consider it a gift.

We can call it a neurological difference if that helps.

I find it hard to believe that you are having trouble understanding how someone would take "you're defective" as anything other than insulting and/or degrading.

Red hair is also a minority trait. Do we refer to redheads as "defective"?

I'm not sure I can quite feel empathy only because I don't know what it's like to be gay.

Exactly...you don't know what it's like to be gay. No one here does.

However, I have sympathy. In fact, I said that in post #53. Though perhaps I can feel empathy regarding the feeling of being an outsider in some respect. Perhaps not on the same level, and I wouldn't even attempt to "match it" out of respect.

I can't imagine what it's like to be in a social circle where you're told that because of who you are, you are an "abomination", "defective", etc. That has to be horrible.

What Conservative Christians choose to do, I can't force them to think differently.

No, but we can ensure that they don't speak for all Christians.

 

[RiverJordan]

ixoye,

I can't imagine that your mean-spirited approach helps anyone but yourself.

 

[ixoye_8]

ixoye,

I can't imagine that your mean-spirited approach helps anyone but yourself.

mean spirited ???
and how am I mean ???
because I love God and my fellow man as myself ???

 

[ixoye_8]

ixoye,

I can't imagine that your mean-spirited approach helps anyone but yourself.

mean spirited ???
and how am I mean ???
because I love God and my fellow man as myself ???

 

[ixoye_8]

Gee, I wonder why.

because they liked sinning ..
however I did have a friend who denounced it and accepted Gods will for him on his death bed as he died from AIDS ..

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I find it hard to believe that you are having trouble understanding how someone would take "you're defective" as anything other than insulting and/or degrading.

Red hair is also a minority trait. Do we refer to redheads as "defective"?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying a minority trait is a defect merely because it is a minority trait--if my statement sounded like that, then I'll take the blame. Nonetheless, it appears that homosexuality is a neurological abnormality which causes a struggle for the individual.

I'm not comparing my difficulty living with epilepsy as the same as someone else's struggle living with homosexuality -- the only comparison I was making as a point as that we each have something different within our brains that causes us to struggle in some way unlike most people.

If you're offended by the term "defect" we can really use any other term. We're getting off subject.

Exactly...you don't know what it's like to be gay. No one here does.

I'm not sure what you oppose about my statement.

I can't imagine what it's like to be in a social circle where you're told that because of who you are, you are an "abomination", "defective", etc. That has to be horrible.

May you never have to.

No, but we can ensure that they don't speak for all Christians.

No one does.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Oops. I accidentally hit "reply" instead of edit.

So to take advantage of post #68, I will post this picture of Tom Selleck, a waterfall, and a sandwich. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[RiverJordan]

ixoye,

Yes, your posts on this subject come across as very authoritarian and mean-spirited.

 

[RiverJordan]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying a minority trait is a defect merely because it is a minority trait--if my statement sounded like that, then I'll take the blame. Nonetheless, it appears that homosexuality is a neurological abnormality which causes a struggle for the individual.

But the "struggle" stems from the society in which they live, not from the trait itself. If red hair were seen as a sign that a person is possessed, being born with red hair would suddenly be a "struggle". But the trait hasn't changed, just the context in which it exists.

If you're offended by the term "defect" we can really use any other term. We're getting off subject.

I don't know if being gay is a genetic or biological trait. The evidence seems to suggest it is, but it's not definitive.

I'm not sure what you oppose about my statement.

I wasn't opposing it, I was noting that everyone here is assuming what it is like to be gay.

May you never have to.

But millions of people are, and it doesn't have to be that way.

No one does.

Yet in the US, by being the loudest on this subject, conservative Christians get the most media coverage and attention, thus giving the impression that they are speaking for Christianity. As long as the rest of us shrug our shoulders about it, it will continue.

 

[ixoye_8]

ixoye,

Yes, your posts on this subject come across as very authoritarian and mean-spirited

some thought the same thing about Paul for preaching against sin .. so they beat him ..

 

[ixoye_8]

besides .. you are missing the whole point ..
the defect is not them ..
the defect is sin ..

perhaps you missed where I said we are to show them love but yet not condone sin ???
you know, love the sinner and hate the sin ..

 

[LysanderShapiro]

But the "struggle" stems from the society in which they live, not from the trait itself. If red hair were seen as a sign that a person is possessed, being born with red hair would suddenly be a "struggle". But the trait hasn't changed, just the context in which it exists.

I do think that is a valid point. If we wanted to take faith and religion out of the scenario, this wouldn't mean society wouldn't have a reaction anymore. Some people are homophobic for instance because they are bigoted.

However, if we did the reverse and said that society was actually very calm regarding homosexuality--ie, homophobia was practically unheard of...would that change God's word? I absolutely agree that God does not teach us to be homophobic in the slightest, but this doesn't mean the practice of homosexuality isn't to be regarded as a sin either.

For instance, per-marital sex isn't a struggle for people. It's not looked down on in society, and most people even seem to encourage it. But for those who have learned about God's truth, it does become a struggle because they want to obey God. Temptation can happen and they then need to work through it and not fall under it.

I don't know if being gay is a genetic or biological trait. The evidence seems to suggest it is, but it's not definitive.

Yeah, I can't make a definite claim either. I'm only going by the evidence provided.

I wasn't opposing it, I was noting that everyone here is assuming what it is like to be gay.

Fair enough. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. I do agree that we can't judge people...but certain actions should indeed be judged right from wrong.

But millions of people are, and it doesn't have to be that way.

I think the right thing to do is defend people who are being treated as anything less than human.

Yet in the US, by being the loudest on this subject, conservative Christians get the most media coverage and attention, thus giving the impression that they are speaking for Christianity. As long as the rest of us shrug our shoulders about it, it will continue.

Keep in mind, media is also very much responsible for treating Christianity in a demeaning way. While there are many different forms of bigotry in western culture that still exists, Christianity seems to be the last acceptable bigotry. I remember when CNN highlighted one of Mel Gibson's misbehaviors and ended it with "Who knew Catholicism could be so fascinating." It took my breath away -- it was the strangest thing. I can't imagine a news source recounting Bernie Madoff's ponzie scheme activities and ending it with "Who knew Judaism could be interesting." They wouldn't hear the end of it.

All in all, people of every kind, regardless of what they believe and reject, are still humans made in God's image and deserve love and kindness. What they do becomes another subject.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

besides .. you are missing the whole point ..
the defect is not them ..
the defect is sin ..

To be fair, I was the first one to use the term "defect," and I meant it more in the medical form. I said, for instance, that my epilepsy is a neurological defect.

 

[RiverJordan]

ixoye,

Show me any "love" towards gays in any of your posts.

 

[RiverJordan]

Lysander,

I have to go. I'll check back later.

 

[ixoye_8]

ixoye,

Show me any "love" towards gays in any of your posts.

Jesus had a very interesting take on what is enumerated by God of those who didn't or couldn't follow His will for us .. it was a compassionate view of them, even though he did not condone it .. it was one of a "physician" ..

Mat 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
Mat 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners

therefore we also love the sinner, but hate the sin ..
the goal is to SIN NO MORE if you love God and if eternal life is your goal ..

now show me where you in any of your posts spoke out against sinning ..
as I said, if you do not speak out against sinning .. then YOU DO NOT LOVE ..
because you are not helping them to obey God and thus gain salvation ..

 

[Jane Blond]

No, you are not understanding me. Hermaphrodite is exempt and can pass judgement with God. Homosexual can't.

You are very mistaken there, however! Homosexuality was never a topic in the Bible. Neither a homosexual love relation nor homosexual sexuality. The authors of the Bible always saw homosexuality in connection with shrine prostitution and the adoration of other idols. This gets clear both in the OT and in the NT.

I am not sure you grasp the scripture there. Perhaps read them in German and then comment?

I have several Bible expenses. Getting some inherited, others bought or given. Among this a Bible with the Hebrew/Greek original text on one side and the German text on the other side. Moreover, I still have some very expensive Bible dictionaries which take advantage of clergymen. So I know exactly what I write. Do you also know it?

You seem to have missed what I said again. How much are you helping a child by condoning their sin? No Christian should beat their children.

The parents who did this were Christians. Her name has been well known in the seventies in Hamburg. The father had raped little boys; the mother knew it. The case was confessed in the nineties in public. I know the boy who was made by his parents homelessly and did suicide attempt. He was my half-brother (same mother, different father).

So because Zoroastrianism mentions a devil figure needed to oppose good, you believe it over the bible? Even so your judgement is bad (no offence). A priest is a respected person, why?? It is because he has given up a lot to serve God! His time, his desires.....all gone. Be honest with yourself, can you come close to the same type of self sacrifice? To see a good man stumble is sad, dare we judge him harshly! We are no-where close to him and the predicament he is in. At least he is trying. I am not against disciplining them. But you will throw all priests out becuase some have flaws, really? Don't you think that is ''martian'' reasoning?

I only made clear, where the faith in a devil comes from. And, that other religions took and developed further this faith. I did not want to clarify more.
You feel attacked in your faith personally. I did not want this but facts still remain facts.

 

[ixoye_8]

those who are LOVING show them it is sin and WHY they need to stop ..
those who are APATHETIC say nothing to show them it is sin and WHY they need to stop
those who HATE condone, embrace and defend the sin on others in DIRECT defiance of what Jesus told us we are to do ..

Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

 

[ixoye_8]

those who are LOVING show them it is sin and WHY they need to stop ..
those who are APATHETIC say nothing to show them it is sin and WHY they need to stop
those who HATE condone, embrace and defend the sin on others in DIRECT defiance of what Jesus told us we are to do ..

Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.