Tithing - A Systematic Study

[Musicmaster]

Dare we perform a systematic study of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, we see that the tithe never had anything to do with wages earned from labor or from goods produced by hand, such as wood items from carpenters (hint, hint), cloth from clothiers, sandals and shoes from cobblers, or anything else that was not harvested directly come from the ground or came directly from livestock as newborns.

For reference:

Leviticus 27:30, 32

30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD. ... 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, 27 And the Levite that [is] within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

Now, I've had some say to me that tithing predates the Law, as allegedly exemplified by some obscure principle portrayed with Abraham and his encounter with Melchizedek.

Folks, these kinds of eisegetical injections into the text what isn't there, they are tiring and far too common among the laity and clergy who teach falsely things from their own imaginations, or from what they had been taught in cemetary school or some other source such as their favorite TV preacher, teacher, Sunday school teacher, etc.

Abraham, who was already among some of the wealthiest men of that era and area, his purpose for going on that mission of war was to rescue his nephew Lot from the marauding kings who sacked and looted his home cities. If you study carefully his actions, independent of all the nonsense you may have heard from others or read in Bible study guides on that strange "tithing principle" that remains unknown to the text, one will see that Abraham intentionally returned to the cities from where all that loot was stolen. Who among you would keep what they took back property from thieves that had been stolen, and give it back to its rightful owner? Ahh, but there are those out there who so easily trash a man they've never met by pointing out that it was the custom of that day for the victor to keep the loot they took back from raiders, as if Abraham was a commoner like all others. Read his words, which betray the intentional return of property he knew never belonged to him in the first place:

Genesis 14:21-24
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not [take] from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that [is] thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

If Abraham established some alleged principle for tithing today, then how do we follow that principle without being guilty of subjectively picking and choosing from his situation whatsoever happens to mesh with that contrived "principle"? Being guilty of subjectivism seems to bother not many souls these days.

How about you? What are your thoughts about all this? I have much, much more to share, but wanted to get you all biting this off in smaller chunks since this is a vast and controversial topic. Bobinfaith and I sat together over breakfast this morning, conversing about many things, and this being one of the items of interest in our conversation together.

We'd like to hear from you all.

Thanks

MM

 

[crossnote]

The author of Hebrews in ch.7 takes up the case where Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (a type of Christ) but mainly to show the superiority of the Priesthood of Christ over the Levitical priesthood...

(Heb 7:9) And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
(Heb 7:10) for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
(Heb 7:11) Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

To go here to prove 'the tithe' predates the law would be futile as Hebrews shows that the whole Levitical system has been surpassed by a better Priesthood and Covenant.

 

[Major]

Dare we perform a systematic study of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, we see that the tithe never had anything to do with wages earned from labor or from goods produced by hand, such as wood items from carpenters (hint, hint), cloth from clothiers, sandals and shoes from cobblers, or anything else that was not harvested directly come from the ground or came directly from livestock as newborns.

For reference:

Leviticus 27:30, 32

30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD. ... 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, 27 And the Levite that [is] within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

Now, I've had some say to me that tithing predates the Law, as allegedly exemplified by some obscure principle portrayed with Abraham and his encounter with Melchizedek.

Folks, these kinds of eisegetical injections into the text what isn't there, they are tiring and far too common among the laity and clergy who teach falsely things from their own imaginations, or from what they had been taught in cemetary school or some other source such as their favorite TV preacher, teacher, Sunday school teacher, etc.

Abraham, who was already among some of the wealthiest men of that era and area, his purpose for going on that mission of war was to rescue his nephew Lot from the marauding kings who sacked and looted his home cities. If you study carefully his actions, independent of all the nonsense you may have heard from others or read in Bible study guides on that strange "tithing principle" that remains unknown to the text, one will see that Abraham intentionally returned to the cities from where all that loot was stolen. Who among you would keep what they took back property from thieves that had been stolen, and give it back to its rightful owner? Ahh, but there are those out there who so easily trash a man they've never met by pointing out that it was the custom of that day for the victor to keep the loot they took back from raiders, as if Abraham was a commoner like all others. Read his words, which betray the intentional return of property he knew never belonged to him in the first place:

Genesis 14:21-24
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not [take] from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that [is] thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

If Abraham established some alleged principle for tithing today, then how do we follow that principle without being guilty of subjectively picking and choosing from his situation whatsoever happens to mesh with that contrived "principle"? Being guilty of subjectivism seems to bother not many souls these days.

How about you? What are your thoughts about all this? I have much, much more to share, but wanted to get you all biting this off in smaller chunks since this is a vast and controversial topic. Bobinfaith and I sat together over breakfast this morning, conversing about many things, and this being one of the items of interest in our conversation together.

We'd like to hear from you all.

Thanks

MM

Those Scriptures from Lev. and Deut. dealing with the products of the land as a means of giving to God was because THAT was what the people of that day had.

In Lev. 27:30 God made tithing a sacred duty.

Jesus endorsed that in Matthew 23:23.

To me, tithing is Gods plan for the church to work. Long before there was S/S and insurance and government paychecks, there was the Temple and then the Church.

"Storehouse" tithing had nothing to do with saving or giving money. It was all about bringing grain to the Temple so that in lean times it would be given out to those in need.

To me, tithing is a means of worship. Consider Nehemiah 12:43 ........
"And on that day they offered great sacrifices, rejoicing because God had given them great joy. The women and children also rejoiced. The sound of rejoicing in Jerusalem could be heard far away."

Sacrificial giving led to great joy. When I read Nehemiah 12 I see the 3 books of worship.

1. The Bible.
They opened the book of the LAW and read it!

2.The hymn book.
They sang hymns.

3. The check book.
They gave sacrificially.

 

[Major]

There really is such controversy over tithing with the juxtaposition between Old Testament scriptures, and New Testament teachings.
I feel it is more of a personal heart issue than anything else. I believe it is our duty to support one another, and tithing is simply one avenue in doing so.
Far too many of us have far too much stuff in my opinion. Some are more stuck into this world than others because of material things. No one needs a garage full of "toys" or a closet full of shoes. Jus' sayin' that kinda "costly array" can help a lot of people other than ourselves.

Some KJV verses...

2Cor. 9:7- Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Luke 6:38- Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Gal. 6:2- Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Acts 20:35- I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Should I tithe to support the church of the body of Christ? Yes. Where that goes exactly, is my choice. Sometimes its a local church, or sometimes its to a brother/sister in Christ whose needs outweigh that of a building. That is when tithing becomes a heart issue for me.

Now in every church I have been associated with (Baptist) all of your giving can be stipulate to where and to whom you want it to go to.

Most churches have a "general fund" that it used to pay the bills associated with doing the business of the church.

You can also tell the church to send a % or an amount to missions or a certain hospital, nursing home, and so on.

 

[Major]

The author of Hebrews in ch.7 takes up the case where Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (a type of Christ) but mainly to show the superiority of the Priesthood of Christ over the Levitical priesthood...

(Heb 7:9) And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
(Heb 7:10) for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
(Heb 7:11) Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

To go here to prove 'the tithe' predates the law would be futile as Hebrews shows that the whole Levitical system has been surpassed by a better Priesthood and Covenant.

Agree. Hebrews 7 is a comparison. It has been incorrectly used by the church to support the tithe.

When it is read carfully, it can be seen that Hebrews 7 is part of a theological argument that Jesus is a greater high priest than the high priest of the Old Covenant and that we are living in a completely different spiritual system in the New Covenant.

Tithing was only included as part of the comparison between Melchizedek and the Old Covenant priests. Hebrews 7 is not a description of tithing or giving by Christians in the early days of the church. It cannot be used to support the statement that tithing was “after the Law.” It is not an instruction to tithe.

However....since the tithe was good enough for Moses, and Daniel, and Hosea, and all the others, it seems only right to follow that example. But.........that is just me.

I have always taught to do what Paul told u to do......"Give to God as He has given to you".

 

[Musicmaster]

There really is such controversy over tithing with the juxtaposition between Old Testament scriptures, and New Testament teachings.
I feel it is more of a personal heart issue than anything else. I believe it is our duty to support one another, and tithing is simply one avenue in doing so.
Far too many of us have far too much stuff in my opinion. Some are more stuck into this world than others because of material things. No one needs a garage full of "toys" or a closet full of shoes. Jus' sayin' that kinda "costly array" can help a lot of people other than ourselves.

Some KJV verses...

2Cor. 9:7- Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Luke 6:38- Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Gal. 6:2- Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Acts 20:35- I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Should I tithe to support the church of the body of Christ? Yes. Where that goes exactly, is my choice. Sometimes its a local church, or sometimes its to a brother/sister in Christ whose needs outweigh that of a building. That is when tithing becomes a heart issue for me.

Good points. What I found interesting is your choice of words when asking "Should I tithe....?" That choice of words seems to imply a requirement.

Is that your thinking?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Those Scriptures from Lev. and Deut. dealing with the products of the land as a means of giving to God was because THAT was what the people of that day had.

In Lev. 27:30 God made tithing a sacred duty.

Jesus endorsed that in Matthew 23:23.

To me, tithing is Gods plan for the church to work. Long before there was S/S and insurance and government paychecks, there was the Temple and then the Church.

"Storehouse" tithing had nothing to do with saving or giving money. It was all about bringing grain to the Temple so that in lean times it would be given out to those in need.

To me, tithing is a means of worship. Consider Nehemiah 12:43 ........
"And on that day they offered great sacrifices, rejoicing because God had given them great joy. The women and children also rejoiced. The sound of rejoicing in Jerusalem could be heard far away."

Sacrificial giving led to great joy. When I read Nehemiah 12 I see the 3 books of worship.

1. The Bible.
They opened the book of the LAW and read it!

2.The hymn book.
They sang hymns.

3. The check book.
They gave sacrificially.

Hmmm. When we study ancient Israel, those people also had currency, and they also had many people who did not own producing lands and/or flocks and/or herds. Some were clothiers who produced cloth for clothing. They were not required to tithe. The workers in the field who harvested from what the tithe was set aside from, they too were not required to tithe from their wages. No wage earners were required to tithe, nor were carpenters, fishermen, et al.

So, I'm interested in this avenue of thought that you opened up into this topic, if you wouldn't mind elaborating further.

As to the church, and how it was to function, from where did you derive that, if you don't mind my asking? Are you saying that the institutional system of churches is a creation of God? If so, how do you establish that as fact?

Thanks

MM

 

[crossnote]

I have always taught to do what Paul told u to do......"Give to God as He has given to you".

I'll go with that along with...

2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Doesn't the tithe have to do with a tenth?

Luke 21:1-4 (NASB) And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

 

[Major]

I'll go with that along with...

2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Doesn't the tithe have to do with a tenth?

Luke 21:1-4 (NASB) And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

"Tithe" is a tenth!

 

[Musicmaster]

Of interest in this conversation are the following that I'd like to throw into the mix:

* Jesus, when He addressed the topic of tithing to those of that time, He was speaking to people who were still under the Law, and thus required to tithe from produce from gardens, fields, vineyards, flocks and herds.

* Nowhere can the idea be defended from scripture that money ever had anything to do with the tithe. Nowhere did the Law define the tithe as money, except in the case of when the appointed place was too far for one to take their tithe...and even then the money was never given to the Levites.

* The tithe was used for the food support of five classes of people...the orphans, widows, strangers in the land, Levites and priests.

* What the widow gave had nothing to do with the tithe.

* Abraham gave a tithe from the spoils of war that he intentionally returned to the rightful owners, apart from the portion for his men and what was given to Melchizedek.

* Abraham gave not one red cent from his personal wealth that was still located in northern Canaan because we are not told that he went back to his home to retrieve a tenth from all his personal wealth to hand over to Melchizedek...or that he ever met Melchizedek again in the remainder of his life.

* I have yet to find one person who can show that Abraham took all his servants, their children, all his wealth in livestock, gold, silver, tents, food, water, and all the other massive provisions it would have taken to have it all with him while traveling on a mission of war in any ability to have caught up with those marauders.

* The (C)hurch has no need for money for her survival and for her function in this world. The man-made system of (c)hurches, yes. They live and breath money as their life support, for when the foundation of money is pulled out from under their feet, they collapse into a heap.

* The (C)hurch, however, is of no such pedigree. Nowhere does the Bible demand that all believers must join up with and support a grouping that possess a communal facility with programs and staffing. Yes, they do indeed need money, and if one is fed by one or more of them, then do indeed support it/them with the secondary portion of giving, but trying to erect those institutions upon the foundation of scripture as if they are God-breathed is an exercise in futility.

Just wanted to throw out for consideration and discussion these items.

MM

 

[Major]

Hmmm. When we study ancient Israel, those people also had currency, and they also had many people who did not own producing lands and/or flocks and/or herds. Some were clothiers who produced cloth for clothing. They were not required to tithe. The workers in the field who harvested from what the tithe was set aside from, they too were not required to tithe from their wages. No wage earners were required to tithe, nor were carpenters, fishermen, et al.

So, I'm interested in this avenue of thought that you opened up into this topic, if you wouldn't mind elaborating further.

As to the church, and how it was to function, from where did you derive that, if you don't mind my asking? Are you saying that the institutional system of churches is a creation of God? If so, how do you establish that as fact?

Thanks

MM

The tithe in Israel provided food, etc., for the priests and Levites, who served Yahveh in the Tabernacle, and later, the Temple. Some think that there were two tithes, however I believe that there was three tithes, the Levitical tithe, the ‘poor and widow’ tithe, and the Feast tithe.

You are correct IMO. The tithes were not taken in money. Every tithe came from food that was produced in the land of Israel. That means only farmers and herders tithed. They gave tithes from the crops they grew and the livestock they raised. It was only food from the land, so fishermen did not have to tithe. It was only from the land of Israel, so Jewish farmers outside Israel did not have to tithe. And it was not money or income, so merchants and craftsmen did not have to tithe. If you think about Jesus and his apostles, four of them were fishermen. They did not tithe. Matthew was a tax collector, so he did not tithe. That did not stop them from following Jesus. Heck, Jesus himself was a carpenter. He did not tithe.

Deut. 16:16-17: ......
"‘Three times in a year all your males must appear before Yahveh your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread and at the Feast of Weeks and at the Feast of Tabernacles. And they must not appear before Yahveh empty handed. Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of Yahveh your God which He has given you.’

The agricultural and animal tithe could be brought three times a year to the Temple in Jerusalem.

Deut. 12:10-12:.......
‘When you cross the Jordan and live in the Land which Yahveh your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies around you so that you live in security, then it shall come about that the place in which Yahveh your God will choose for His Name to dwell, there you must bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes2 and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to Yahveh. And you must rejoice before Yahveh your God; you and your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion or inheritance with you.’

The Hebrews being commanded to ‘rejoice before Yahveh’ means that it was for one of the major Feasts,

The word ‘tithes’ doesn’t necessarily mean two or more full 10% tithes, but the tithe or ten percent of the grain and the tithe of the wine, etc. when all Israel had to appear before Yahveh.

Israel was to tithe (to give ten percent of all their agricultural and animal increase) to the Levites.

They were the ones that served Yahveh full time, and in a sense, ‘shielded’ Israel from the holiness of Yahveh so that He did not destroy them.

Num. 18:22-32:.......
‘The Sons of Israel shall not come near the Tent of Meeting (Tabernacle), again or they will bear sin and die. Only the Levites shall perform the service of the Tent of Meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the Sons of Israel they shall have no inheritance.’ ‘For the tithe of the Sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to Yahveh, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance. Therefore I have said concerning them, ‘They shall have no inheritance among the Sons of Israel.’ Then Yahveh spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Moreover, you shall speak to the Levites and say to them, ’‘When you take from the Sons of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present an offering from it to Yahveh, a tithe of the tithe."

If we give a salary of just $10,000 to every Israeli man able to tithe, then every Israeli man would give $1,000 a year as his tithe. This meant that every Levite would receive slightly more than 70 tithes. Each Levite would get $70,343.82 (603,550 ÷ 8,580 = 70.34382). The Levite would receive more than seven times the amount that the average Israeli made for the year ($70,343.82).

 

[Major]

Hmmm. When we study ancient Israel, those people also had currency, and they also had many people who did not own producing lands and/or flocks and/or herds. Some were clothiers who produced cloth for clothing. They were not required to tithe. The workers in the field who harvested from what the tithe was set aside from, they too were not required to tithe from their wages. No wage earners were required to tithe, nor were carpenters, fishermen, et al.

So, I'm interested in this avenue of thought that you opened up into this topic, if you wouldn't mind elaborating further.

As to the church, and how it was to function, from where did you derive that, if you don't mind my asking? Are you saying that the institutional system of churches is a creation of God? If so, how do you establish that as fact?

Thanks

MM

"Is the institutional system of churches a creation of God"???

If my understanding of "Institutional Churches" is what yours is then I say YES!

IMHO, term institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching. Institutional churches often offer separate classes by age, such as nurseries for preschoolers and services for children and youth, in addition to regular weekly services.

An institutional church can be denominational, such as Baptist, Lutheran, or Methodist, or it may be non- or interdenominational, but all institutional churches are “established” in that they follow general patterns for organization and worship.

Consistently throughout the Old Testament, God called His people to come before Him as a group and to me, God still desires His people to come together as one and lift up their voices and hearts to call upon His name. The New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate.

 

[Via dolarossa]

So basically, it’s about giving at least a tenth of what one is comfortable to give. It dosent matter if it’s money, as long as we are confident to give it, it could even be doing something for someone or even cleaning or cooking in the church ?

Interesting…

 

[Major]

Of interest in this conversation are the following that I'd like to throw into the mix:

* Jesus, when He addressed the topic of tithing to those of that time, He was speaking to people who were still under the Law, and thus required to tithe from produce from gardens, fields, vineyards, flocks and herds.

* Nowhere can the idea be defended from scripture that money ever had anything to do with the tithe. Nowhere did the Law define the tithe as money, except in the case of when the appointed place was too far for one to take their tithe...and even then the money was never given to the Levites.

* The tithe was used for the food support of five classes of people...the orphans, widows, strangers in the land, Levites and priests.

* What the widow gave had nothing to do with the tithe.

* Abraham gave a tithe from the spoils of war that he intentionally returned to the rightful owners, apart from the portion for his men and what was given to Melchizedek.

* Abraham gave not one red cent from his personal wealth that was still located in northern Canaan because we are not told that he went back to his home to retrieve a tenth from all his personal wealth to hand over to Melchizedek...or that he ever met Melchizedek again in the remainder of his life.

* I have yet to find one person who can show that Abraham took all his servants, their children, all his wealth in livestock, gold, silver, tents, food, water, and all the other massive provisions it would have taken to have it all with him while traveling on a mission of war in any ability to have caught up with those marauders.

* The (C)hurch has no need for money for her survival and for her function in this world. The man-made system of (c)hurches, yes. They live and breath money as their life support, for when the foundation of money is pulled out from under their feet, they collapse into a heap.

* The (C)hurch, however, is of no such pedigree. Nowhere does the Bible demand that all believers must join up with and support a grouping that possess a communal facility with programs and staffing. Yes, they do indeed need money, and if one is fed by one or more of them, then do indeed support it/them with the secondary portion of giving, but trying to erect those institutions upon the foundation of scripture as if they are God-breathed is an exercise in futility.

Just wanted to throw out for consideration and discussion these items.

MM

Agreed. IMHO the church is both "Organic" and "Institutional". If there was no institutional church to support missionary work, would we have the level of Christianity we have now woorldwide?

You said.......
* "The (C)hurch has no need for money for her survival and for her function in this world. The man-made system of (c)hurches, yes. They live and breath money as their life support, for when the foundation of money is pulled out from under their feet, they collapse into a heap."

If by Church you mean the body of believers then yes, that is true.

However, if you are referring to a physical building in which those believers meet to worship then NO, I do not agree. If a body of believers do not financially support their church because they are not being feed the gospel, or being taken care of or they are ignored and forgotten, then that church will fail for sure because those members will stop giving which they should.

You said..........
"* The (C)hurch, however, is of no such pedigree. Nowhere does the Bible demand that all believers must join up with and support a grouping that possess a communal facility with programs and staffing. Yes, they do indeed need money, and if one is fed by one or more of them, then do indeed support it/them with the secondary portion of giving, but trying to erect those institutions upon the foundation of scripture as if they are God-breathed is an exercise in futility."

That is also true! But the Bible does say that "we are not to forsake the assembly of the brethern as some others do". While that does not say we are to be church members, it does suggest that we as believers should be in an "Assembly" of believers.

Now if a group of people who believe the Scriptures, choose to gather in a building, give financial support to a man to teach them, help them and give meaningfull advice, then in my opinion that is there freedom of choice to do so.

 

[Major]

So basically, it’s about giving at least a tenth of what one is comfortable to give. It dosent matter if it’s money, as long as we are confident to give it, it could even be doing something for someone or even cleaning or cooking in the church ?

Interesting…

Only "MY" opinion Via........10% is a guide. We as New Test. believers are not bound to a 10% law or rule.
We can give $1.00, $10.00, $100.00 or any amount we can and want to give to the operation of our own church.

 

[Musicmaster]

"Is the institutional system of churches a creation of God"???

If my understanding of "Institutional Churches" is what yours is then I say YES!

IMHO, term institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching. Institutional churches often offer separate classes by age, such as nurseries for preschoolers and services for children and youth, in addition to regular weekly services.

An institutional church can be denominational, such as Baptist, Lutheran, or Methodist, or it may be non- or interdenominational, but all institutional churches are “established” in that they follow general patterns for organization and worship.

Consistently throughout the Old Testament, God called His people to come before Him as a group and to me, God still desires His people to come together as one and lift up their voices and hearts to call upon His name. The New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate.

What I like is that a group of believers don't have to possess a communal facility to be a legitimate gathering of believers.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I've encountered numbers of people who assumed Jesus meant hundreds, or thousands.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Agreed. IMHO the church is both "Organic" and "Institutional". If there was no institutional church to support missionary work, would we have the level of Christianity we have now woorldwide?

You said.......
* "The (C)hurch has no need for money for her survival and for her function in this world. The man-made system of (c)hurches, yes. They live and breath money as their life support, for when the foundation of money is pulled out from under their feet, they collapse into a heap."

If by Church you mean the body of believers then yes, that is true.

However, if you are referring to a physical building in which those believers meet to worship then NO, I do not agree. If a body of believers do not financially support their church because they are not being feed the gospel, or being taken care of or they are ignored and forgotten, then that church will fail for sure because those members will stop giving which they should.

You said..........
"* The (C)hurch, however, is of no such pedigree. Nowhere does the Bible demand that all believers must join up with and support a grouping that possess a communal facility with programs and staffing. Yes, they do indeed need money, and if one is fed by one or more of them, then do indeed support it/them with the secondary portion of giving, but trying to erect those institutions upon the foundation of scripture as if they are God-breathed is an exercise in futility."

That is also true! But the Bible does say that "we are not to forsake the assembly of the brethern as some others do". While that does not say we are to be church members, it does suggest that we as believers should be in an "Assembly" of believers.

Now if a group of people who believe the Scriptures, choose to gather in a building, give financial support to a man to teach them, help them and give meaningfull advice, then in my opinion that is there freedom of choice to do so.

Please keep in mind that I'm not talking about forsaking the gathering of believers. I personally have walked away from the institutional model, not the gathering of believers in totality. We meet in homes.

Therein is the reason I stated in an earlier post that the institutional model, with facilities and professional staffing, is not the only legitimate model for the gathering of believers. I've encountered those who DO think having a facility and professional staffing is the only acceptable model for the gathering and growth of believers. Wow. That is always an interesting conversation I've had with them.

MM

 

[crossnote]

* What the widow gave had nothing to do with the tithe.

Exactly. That's why I used it as an illustration of comparison.

 

[Major]

Please keep in mind that I'm not talking about forsaking the gathering of believers. I personally have walked away from the institutional model, not the gathering of believers in totality. We meet in homes.

Therein is the reason I stated in an earlier post that the institutional model, with facilities and professional staffing, is not the only legitimate model for the gathering of believers. I've encountered those who DO think having a facility and professional staffing is the only acceptable model for the gathering and growth of believers. Wow. That is always an interesting conversation I've had with them.

MM

I agree completely!

The reason I lean to the institutional church and not the Home church paradigm is for "accountability".

My experience with Home churches is that they are dependent upon the personality of the host. He may be totally insufficient in Bible doctrine and knowledge, but if he is a loved personality and he gets his knowledge from internet blogs, people will listen and follow.

NO my brother.....I am not referring to you. I am talking about what I have seen happen in my life and community.

 

[Major]

What I like is that a group of believers don't have to possess a communal facility to be a legitimate gathering of believers.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I've encountered numbers of people who assumed Jesus meant hundreds, or thousands.

MM

Agreed. In fact my church which I retired from, has several of homes with just that ability. They asked me what the sermon text was going to be on and I supplied it to them. They would then discuss that topic/doctrine at length and then when I gave the sermon, they would all be on the same page and there were no surprises.

That was done because of Nemiah 13:5........
"And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests."

Nehemiah 8:6-9...............
"And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law."