Tithing - A Systematic Study

[Musicmaster]

I agree completely!

The reason I lean to the institutional church and not the Home church paradigm is for "accountability".

My experience with Home churches is that they are dependent upon the personality of the host. He may be totally insufficient in Bible doctrine and knowledge, but if he is a loved personality and he gets his knowledge from internet blogs, people will listen and follow.

NO my brother.....I am not referring to you. I am talking about what I have seen happen in my life and community.

It's interesting what you said. I was a member of a church organization that was in the construction phase of a new facility, with our services held in the gymnasium. That preacher was the personality of that large church melting pot of people of all colors and backgrounds. He eventually ended up in prison for 10 years for money laundering for what he thought was drug cartel from Columbia, but was actually federal agents.

Needless to say, I was blessed to have walked away from that organization before he laundered the money from those agents through the organization. His wife almost ended up going to prison too since she was the one padding the offering trays with the cash he laundered for the agents, but he agreed to their terms, and she was not charged for her crimes.

This is a part of my mention here because cultic personalities are all over the place, both in home churches, institutional churches, parachurch and charity organizations...everywhere. Can't escape them. So I'm glad you brought this up.

The false teacher personality cult church leaders teach the requirement for tithing today with no shame whatsoever, thus enslaving their people under the Law and/or under the false principle of tithing allegedly exemplified by Abraham.

In the following, I will allow the scriptures to illustrate for everyone that not even Israel followed some man-made, contrived "principle" for tithing allegedly played out by Abraham. Let's look at Numbers 31:

Numbers 31:9-31

9 And the children of Israel took [all] the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, [both] of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which [are] by Jordan [near] Jericho. 13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, [with] the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify [both] yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. 20 And purify all [your] raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' [hair], and all things made of wood. 21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This [is] the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses; 22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make [it] go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water. 24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp. 25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, [both] of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: 27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: 28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: 29 Take [it] of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, [for] an heave offering of the LORD. 30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

As we see from this, the men who fought handed over only 1/500th from their share of the spoils, and the people who didn't fight, they handed over ten times more, to the tune of 1/50th of their portion. No 1/10th, no tithe, nothing of the kind.

So, given that not even Israel as a nation followed that elusive, non-existent principle taught as being from God through Abraham, I'm left wondering about that avenue of false teaching that's so pervasive among false teachers. I've even heard David Jeremiah teaching along that vein, although I'm not sure he's still on that roadway of teaching right now since I don't listen to him.

If Abraham is going to be blamed for establishing some "principle" of tithing from monetary wages negotiated between employer and employee on the basis of spoils of war, then someone will have to do a better job of showing to me that connective parallel that simply escapes me at this time. Maybe I'm not smart enough to see the connection, but perhaps someone here can open up my eyes to it.

I don't mean to make this sound as though I'm going to be adversarial in my approach to this. That's not the case at all. It's just that I will need something with more substance behind it than for someone to do little more than to accuse all us non-tithers of being greedy, and therefore not wanting to give. I need some feedback from someone who's going to lay down a solid foundation of biblical hermeneutics in defense of the requirement in the place of what is written in the Epistles to us concerning giving whatsoever we purpose in our hearts.

Thank you all for participating in this topical discussion.

MM

 

[Major]

It's interesting what you said. I was a member of a church organization that was in the construction phase of a new facility, with our services held in the gymnasium. That preacher was the personality of that large church melting pot of people of all colors and backgrounds. He eventually ended up in prison for 10 years for money laundering for what he thought was drug cartel from Columbia, but was actually federal agents.

Needless to say, I was blessed to have walked away from that organization before he laundered the money from those agents through the organization. His wife almost ended up going to prison too since she was the one padding the offering trays with the cash he laundered for the agents, but he agreed to their terms, and she was not charged for her crimes.

This is a part of my mention here because cultic personalities are all over the place, both in home churches, institutional churches, parachurch and charity organizations...everywhere. Can't escape them. So I'm glad you brought this up.

The false teacher personality cult church leaders teach the requirement for tithing today with no shame whatsoever, thus enslaving their people under the Law and/or under the false principle of tithing allegedly exemplified by Abraham.

In the following, I will allow the scriptures to illustrate for everyone that not even Israel followed some man-made, contrived "principle" for tithing allegedly played out by Abraham. Let's look at Numbers 31:

Numbers 31:9-31

9 And the children of Israel took [all] the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, [both] of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which [are] by Jordan [near] Jericho. 13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, [with] the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify [both] yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. 20 And purify all [your] raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' [hair], and all things made of wood. 21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This [is] the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses; 22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make [it] go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water. 24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp. 25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, [both] of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: 27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: 28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: 29 Take [it] of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, [for] an heave offering of the LORD. 30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

As we see from this, the men who fought handed over only 1/500th from their share of the spoils, and the people who didn't fight, they handed over ten times more, to the tune of 1/50th of their portion. No 1/10th, no tithe, nothing of the kind.

So, given that not even Israel as a nation followed that elusive, non-existent principle taught as being from God through Abraham, I'm left wondering about that avenue of false teaching that's so pervasive among false teachers. I've even heard David Jeremiah teaching along that vein, although I'm not sure he's still on that roadway of teaching right now since I don't listen to him.

If Abraham is going to be blamed for establishing some "principle" of tithing from monetary wages negotiated between employer and employee on the basis of spoils of war, then someone will have to do a better job of showing to me that connective parallel that simply escapes me at this time. Maybe I'm not smart enough to see the connection, but perhaps someone here can open up my eyes to it.

I don't mean to make this sound as though I'm going to be adversarial in my approach to this. That's not the case at all. It's just that I will need something with more substance behind it than for someone to do little more than to accuse all us non-tithers of being greedy, and therefore not wanting to give. I need some feedback from someone who's going to lay down a solid foundation of biblical hermeneutics in defense of the requirement in the place of what is written in the Epistles to us concerning giving whatsoever we purpose in our hearts.

Thank you all for participating in this topical discussion.

MM

Brother......You are NOT being adversarial. You are discusing something that is important to you and in reality I agree, and yet I disagree which is why I said that it must be an act of worship for the individual.

My only point here is based on the fact that the law is clearly repealed and that tithing is part of the law.
Easy Pizzey!.

Why should we try to find a verse that specifically ends tithing, when I can find plenty of proof that tithing is in fact part of the law? There are Old Testament laws that are specifically mentioned and ended in the New Testament, so it is through these examples we can determine the principles we should apply to all the laws in scripture.

The logic here is that because the New Testament does not tell us to stop tithing, this means that God wants us to continue tithing. This is one of the most immature excuses used to require tithing.

Haven't we all done something stupid when we were a child and then make the excuse to your parents, “You didn’t tell me not to do it”? How did that work for an excuse to get you out of trouble? Well, this excuse doesn’t work for tithing either. Just because there is no verse that states, “Thou shalt stop tithing” does not issue a license to continue it’s practice. The New Testament (NT) wasn’t written because God needed to explain how to reverse all the Old Testament (OT) laws one by one.

Example: Circumcision. I think that everyone can say that the act is no longer needed as it was a sign. We do not need signs!

Example: Don’t let illegitimate children in the Assembly of God. We understand that to be silly BUT it is in the Law of God.

Example: If a woman hurts a man’s testicles, you should cut off her hand. How many would agree to that BUT it is in the LAW of God.

If anyone does want to tithe then that is what they should do. If you do not want to then don't!
IMHO, God will bless you if you tithe, however, I do not believe that God will punish anyone for not tithing.

Paul, when teaching about giving, lays down principles of giving. A few of these principles include: that it should be voluntary, from the heart, as one is led by the Spirit, and according to the grace that one has been given by God.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Musicmaster;

My understanding of tithes in the Old Testament teachings what you shared in Leviticus 27:30, 32 and Deuteronomy 14:22-27 (and other Scriptures in the OT) is very personal between God and me in my home. I don't tithe because God understands I don't have 10% of crops, livestock, grains or agricultural fruit to be given.

My understanding of offerings in the New Testament teachings in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15 (and other Scriptures in the NT) is giving back God's portion of everything and everything I can give of myself to those crying and suffering, that He has given and entrusted to me and my family. I give my heart felt offerings and at times I will give 10%, 15%, 20% and other times 2%. Either way, we're giving back from our hearts God's portion, and He has never failed to do great things with little or plenty. I believe!

2 Corinthians 9:6-10, 6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written, “He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.”

10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

12 For the ministry of this service is not only supplying the needs of the saints but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God. 13 By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, 14 while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you.

15 Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

Now, some areas in the New Testament the term tithe will be used. Jesus rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:23, 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

This passage troubles me because I have seen this pharisaical practice by ministers in the church. Just to be clear, I'm not directing this at our CFS seasoned ministers in this topic. I'm exposing the practices right here in the SF Bay Area.

Sorry, SF, I used to work in accounting (costing, allocating money and profit margins, and served on the church board of directors.) So when other churches speak to me about finances, I get it.

Truth is, many ministers will look the other way at the hearts, tongues, flesh and lifestyle of their members because they can give plenty of what's in their pockets, while manipulating the weak and vulnerable to help meet the costs at that moment. Yet, at the end of the day, the minister gets his/her salary. Combining both is wrong.

Musicmaster and I discussed this topic and when we made the point of the widow who gave all she had in Mark 12:38-44, I agreed with him; we have to study the contextual "surroundings,"

38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39 and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums.

42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

On one hand, pointing back to the church leaders in Mark 12:38-40 (and in these times) who should have been there to help the widow with a benevolence. I was just listening to a preacher who asked his congregation for prayer because his daughter who didn't meet her costs for college graduate work had to miss the semester. She felt her Dad's church let them down, fell into depression and withdrew from her friends.

I felt for his daughter because I wouldn't wish this setback on anyone, but it was the way he presented it to his church. First of all, it seemed like a "humble brag" of his daughter's college status (graduate work) and was hoping through his message that his church would help them out with the costs for the next semester, besides his salary. For some reason, this seems backwards.

On the other hand, the widow who did appear weak and vulnerable, gave her last two coins. Jesus saw that the others gave because they had plenty, but she gave sacrificially, which was more than all of them put together. Praise God for the church leader who will take the time to acknowledge the weak and vulnerable and get to know them, their circumstances and needs.

I'm glad this thread, Tithing - A Systematic Study was posted. I don't feel this is being taught correctly in many churches and I pray we all can learn a little bit more in this topic.

God bless you, MM, and thank you for sharing.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello Musicmaster;

My understanding of tithes in the Old Testament teachings what you shared in Leviticus 27:30, 32 and Deuteronomy 14:22-27 (and other Scriptures in the OT) is very personal between God and me in my home. I don't tithe because God understands I don't have 10% of crops, livestock, grains or agricultural fruit to be given.

My understanding of offerings in the New Testament teachings in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15 (and other Scriptures in the NT) is giving back God's portion of everything and everything I can give of myself to those crying and suffering, that He has given and entrusted to me and my family. I give my heart felt offerings and at times I will give 10%, 15%, 20% and other times 2%. Either way, we're giving back from our hearts God's portion, and He has never failed to do great things with little or plenty. I believe!

2 Corinthians 9:6-10, 6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written, “He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.”

10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

12 For the ministry of this service is not only supplying the needs of the saints but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God. 13 By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, 14 while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you.

15 Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

Now, some areas in the New Testament the term tithe will be used. Jesus rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:23, 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

This passage troubles me because I have seen this pharisaical practice by ministers in the church. Just to be clear, I'm not directing this at our CFS seasoned ministers in this topic. I'm exposing the practices right here in the SF Bay Area.

Sorry, SF, I used to work in accounting (costing, allocating money and profit margins, and served on the church board of directors.) So when other churches speak to me about finances, I get it.

Truth is, many ministers will look the other way at the hearts, tongues, flesh and lifestyle of their members because they can give plenty of what's in their pockets, while manipulating the weak and vulnerable to help meet the costs at that moment. Yet, at the end of the day, the minister gets his/her salary. Combining both is wrong.

Musicmaster and I discussed this topic and when we made the point of the widow who gave all she had in Mark 12:38-44, I agreed with him; we have to study the contextual "surroundings,"

38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39 and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums.

42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

On one hand, pointing back to the church leaders in Mark 12:38-40 (and in these times) who should have been there to help the widow with a benevolence. I was just listening to a preacher who asked his congregation for prayer because his daughter who didn't meet her costs for college graduate work had to miss the semester. She felt her Dad's church let them down, fell into depression and withdrew from her friends.

I felt for his daughter because I wouldn't wish this setback on anyone, but it was the way he presented it to his church. First of all, it seemed like a "humble brag" of his daughter's college status (graduate work) and was hoping through his message that his church would help them out with the costs for the next semester, besides his salary. For some reason, this seems backwards.

On the other hand, the widow who did appear weak and vulnerable, gave her last two coins. Jesus saw that the others gave because they had plenty, but she gave sacrificially, which was more than all of them put together. Praise God for the church leader who will take the time to acknowledge the weak and vulnerable and get to know them, their circumstances and needs.

I'm glad this thread, Tithing - A Systematic Study was posted. I don't feel this is being taught correctly in many churches and I pray we all can learn a little bit more in this topic.

God bless you, MM, and thank you for sharing.

Bob, observe with me, if you will, Luke 21:1-6. In that context of the widows two mites, Jesus then condemns the very system and its temple where that widow gave her two mites. That corrupt system of works-based salvation, accepting all that the widow had who thought she could buy her way into Heaven, was going to be brought down, with not one stone left upon another.

For emphasis, please look up on YouTube John MacArthur's short clip on this very thing. Look up "John MacArthur widow's mite." He brings tremendous emphasis to bear upon this very thing in Luke. Teachers the world over spew out to their gullible audiences that imagery as allegedly being a good thing, when in fact it's nothing more than a reflection of corruption, and that widow gave into it from motivations revealed only in what Jesus stated in those verses, in that context, even if it be by inference.

I hope this helps to bring some further clarity to those passages. As for Matthew 23, Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the Law at that time. For emphasis upon this fact, please see the following:

Matthew 8:1-4

1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 3 And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Many I've encountered out there fail to realize that Jesus was indeed addressing a people who were still under the Law of Moses, especially in those topics that were defined and governed by the Law. That Law was fulfilled in Jesus when the veil was ripped from top to bottom, and He said, "It is finished." Before that, He always expected those people to continue to do as the Law commanded, but especially in the spirit and character of the Law. The adultress being brought before Him without the man also. That crowd was not at all remaining consistent with the Law of Moses. Had they brought the man also, Jesus would have upheld the Law and its demands for execution, but they brought only the woman, as if to say that they, allegedly being without sin, were therefore the proper arbiters of justice apart from the Law since they were not being consistent with it.

Whew! Long winded again, huh? Sorry.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Participating in this thread was with great reluctance for me, as I still feel women should remain silent even on these boards when men are in discussion.

However, this is one topic that continues to create great turbulence in this community and beyond. Ultimately it is leading many younger adults astray which therefore choose not to seek fellowship and turn away from Christianity. When humbling themselves to even ask a church for help, most find "you are not a tithing member" for an answer. Its a slap in the face of our savior.

When we all speak together as brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no male nor female when we are simply discussing. It's one thing to speak as an authority in doctrine for teaching, but quite another to simply share, ask questions.

So, please, feel free to share your thoughts, and we will bring them up along side of scripture to see if they are consistent with what's written.

MM

 

[Major]

Participating in this thread was with great reluctance for me, as I still feel women should remain silent even on these boards when men are in discussion.

However, this is one topic that continues to create great turbulence in this community and beyond. Ultimately it is leading many younger adults astray which therefore choose not to seek fellowship and turn away from Christianity. When humbling themselves to even ask a church for help, most find "you are not a tithing member" for an answer. Its a slap in the face of our savior.

I for one encourage you to participate! Your voice carries just as much weight as does that of some old codger like me........probably more.

Now, if the members of any local church do not tithe, then there will not be any thing in that churches general fund to help anyone who needs help.

We as a church, many years ago had to begin the practice of only helping "Church Members" financially.
Our church helps pay doctor bills, Medicine, food and water and elec. bills where needed. We can do that because the church tithes regularly. Now that had to be done due to the charlatans who came to the door every day asking for money.

God has blessed our church so much that in the Christmas of 2020, during the Covid 19 pandemic, we were able to give every church member a gift of $250.00, no questions asked.

It would be impossible to do those things if all the members did not believe in tithing!

 

[Musicmaster]

I can't think of a time that I didn't hear, whether through magazines, radio, TV, etc., that church-goers aren't tithing a full 10%, but rather an average of 1%.

Now, if that's true, what those people are saying (those who complain about church-goers not giving enough) is that institutional churches need that full 10%, which is ten times more than the average of the 1% they claim church-goers have been giving historically.

If all those institutions had ten times what they are taking in now, what would they do with it all? Larger facilities? New add-on gymnasiums? Remodel the offices to make them more plush or modern? Some might even start an outreach of food and other helps to meet needs more than they are now....if anything.

Now, Major is right. The Law was the Law, and the tithing requirement was tied to that Law by way of definition and governance.

Fact: The tithe all went for meeting needs and providing for the offerings in the temple. None of it went for upkeep of the temple, nor for the decorations or anything else that had to do with anything other than meeting real and genuine needs.

New Testament giving ALSO went exclusively for the meeting of needs, not facilities and professional staffing, etc., like what we see today.

Interestingly, while going through the Creation Science Museum here in Kentucky with my wife just today, we observed placards with the statements that the priests, by the second temple period, became increasingly politicized, and thus greedy; utilizing the tithe for personal gain and other things that were 180 degree departures from the primary purpose of meeting needs of people.

Hmm. Today, we see the same thing going on that the priesthood in the temple slipped into, which is to use the primary portion of the people's first fruits giving for things other than the meeting of needs. Christianity Today Magazine had an article they published years ago covering this phenomenon within the institutional church systems; in that the majority consumed the primary portion of people's giving...not for the meeting of needs, but for the purchase and upkeep of dead buildings and real estate, including programs and staffing.

So, this leads to the question: Are all the things institutional churches possess necessities, or are they luxuries. What are necessities? What are luxuries? Dare we define those terms in relation to real estate and buildings, the bandwagoneers suddenly become upset at the obvious implications.

That charismatic preacher I told y'all about earlier in this thread once claimed that none of us is responsible for our "tithe" if he ends up abusing any or all of it. That troubled me, because it was my belief that, as followers of Christ, especially dare we be mature in the faith, the responsibility in how we gave, and where we gave, was ours to begin with, and thus never relinquished nor placed upon someone else. In other words, if we give to what may be questionable, then we're responsible for them having what they got from us, and abuses still involve our being responsible.

So, should consideration and provision for a dead building and programs take top priority in the people's giving in how it's handled, or should the people exercise responsibility for their giving to ensure that the primary portion goes for the meeting of needs, leaving the remainder for the facility, programs and staffing? This has the aroma of them getting only 1% a more plausible and correct percentage of the people's giving, which is the organic percentage they claim to be getting historically. In other words, they are not entitled to the full 10% because of the great potential that they will abuse it rather than to handle it in accordance with the commands and examples provided in the very Book they claim to teach and follow.

These are some questions to ponder, given the tendencies within our religious systems of churches.

What say you all?

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

"Is the institutional system of churches a creation of God"??? If my understanding of "Institutional Churches" is what yours is then I say YES!
IMHO, term institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching. Consistently throughout the Old Testament, God called His people to come before Him as a group and to me, God still desires His people to come together as one and lift up their voices and hearts to call upon His name. The New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate.

Brother......You are NOT being adversarial. You are discussing something that is important to you and in reality I agree, and yet I disagree which is why I said that it must be an act of worship for the individual. My only point here is based on the fact that the law is clearly repealed and that tithing is part of the law. Easy Pizzey!. Why should we try to find a verse that specifically ends tithing, when I can find plenty of proof that tithing is in fact part of the law? There are Old Testament laws that are specifically mentioned and ended in the New Testament, so it is through these examples we can determine the principles we should apply to all the laws in scripture. The logic here is that because the New Testament does not tell us to stop tithing, this means that God wants us to continue tithing. This is one of the most immature excuses used to require tithing.

Bob, observe with me, if you will, Luke 21:1-6. In that context of the widows two mites, Jesus then condemns the very system and its temple where that widow gave her two mites. That corrupt system of works-based salvation, accepting all that the widow had who thought she could buy her way into Heaven, was going to be brought down, with not one stone left upon another. For emphasis, please look up on YouTube John MacArthur's short clip on this very thing. Look up "John MacArthur widow's mite." He brings tremendous emphasis to bear upon this very thing in Luke. Teachers the world over spew out to their gullible audiences that imagery as allegedly being a good thing, when in fact it's nothing more than a reflection of corruption, and that widow gave into it from motivations revealed only in what Jesus stated in those verses, in that context, even if it be by inference. I hope this helps to bring some further clarity to those passages. As for Matthew 23, Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the Law at that time. For emphasis upon this fact, please see the following: Matthew 8:1-4

I can't think of a time that I didn't hear, whether through magazines, radio, TV, etc., that church-goers aren't tithing a full 10%, but rather an average of 1%. Now, if that's true, what those people are saying (those who complain about church-goers not giving enough) is that institutional churches need that full 10%, which is ten times more than the average of the 1% they claim church-goers have been giving historically.

Hello Major;

I want to further my thoughts to what you and MM were discussing. "Institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching." In the church institutional includes "autonomous governance" of an individual church ordained by God's plan and purpose and this is where tithing or offering gets sticky, unfortunately. For example,

Our church tried to impose a commitment document called faith giving that is required by each member to sign in their pledge of giving back to the Lord. This was rejected because the person who suggested it did not know the history of our church's finances from giving. As their pastor I didn't know who gave or how much, except to pray as an overseer of the BOD and God's money. As of today we've never had a huge checking account but as God as my witness we have no debt aside from expenses, insurance, salaries, benevolence, mission giving, etc...When there was a time of need by a member we were prepared because we know each individual of our church family.

In your remark, "the New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate." I agree with you and well, in my experience when Christians decided they didn't like church refused to participate also included their lack of giving their personal time serving or monetary back to the Lord. Either the pastor or church leadership isn't ministering to the individual for fear of sustaining numbers or offering to pray and encourage them to ask the Lord to guide them to the church where they can participate and serve. This does not replace the place of worship to our God.

Hello, Musicmaster;

Let's both observe, brother. In my post I feel what I shared aligns with your post of the widow, the two coins, the corruption of the temple leaders, perhaps in different views, but overall I feel we are in alignment with each other and I agree with you. If you meant that the widow was buying her way into heaven, then Jesus would have seen right through her. What He did see was her sacrificial giving, which was more than all of them put together, that was the point of the widow's giving. Now, if what you meant was the leader's message to her then this is false teaching and it's sinfully wrong. Once again, this is what Jesus was pointing out, how the leaders manipulate the weak and vulnerable.

As far as the giving of church goers an average of 1%, this is correct and it's also intentional. How many chose to purchase something on timely payments and pay more each month, yet, what measly little is left in their pocket when they give their 1% back to God? In both cases, the individual made a choice. I have heard Christians too many times say, "well, I needed this material thing to live." Don't we need God even more?

I'll take a look at John MacArthur's video while studying Luke, Matthew, Mark. What's beautiful is how God's Word constantly shows us/me something new to learn.

Musicmaster, let's continue this discussion but at some point we need to arrive at a going forward solution, prompted by God, and will we give heed to Him?

God bless you, Major and Musicmaster and for sharing in this topic.

 

[Major]

Hello Major;

I want to further my thoughts to what you and MM were discussing. "Institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching." In the church institutional includes "autonomous governance" of an individual church ordained by God's plan and purpose and this is where tithing or offering gets sticky, unfortunately. For example,

Our church tried to impose a commitment document called faith giving that is required by each member to sign in their pledge of giving back to the Lord. This was rejected because the person who suggested it did not know the history of our church's finances from giving. As their pastor I didn't know who gave or how much, except to pray as an overseer of the BOD and God's money. As of today we've never had a huge checking account but as God as my witness we have no debt aside from expenses, insurance, salaries, benevolence, mission giving, etc...When there was a time of need by a member we were prepared because we know each individual of our church family.

In your remark, "the New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate." I agree with you and well, in my experience when Christians decided they didn't like church refused to participate also included their lack of giving their personal time serving or monetary back to the Lord. Either the pastor or church leadership isn't ministering to the individual for fear of sustaining numbers or offering to pray and encourage them to ask the Lord to guide them to the church where they can participate and serve. This does not replace the place of worship to our God.

Hello, Musicmaster;

Let's both observe, brother. In my post I feel what I shared aligns with your post of the widow, the two coins, the corruption of the temple leaders, perhaps in different views, but overall I feel we are in alignment with each other and I agree with you. If you meant that the widow was buying her way into heaven, then Jesus would have seen right through her. What He did see was her sacrificial giving, which was more than all of them put together, that was the point of the widow's giving. Now, if what you meant was the leader's message to her then this is false teaching and it's sinfully wrong. Once again, this is what Jesus was pointing out, how the leaders manipulate the weak and vulnerable.

As far as the giving of church goers an average of 1%, this is correct and it's also intentional. How many chose to purchase something on timely payments and pay more each month, yet, what measly little is left in their pocket when they give their 1% back to God? In both cases, the individual made a choice. I have heard Christians too many times say, "well, I needed this material thing to live." Don't we need God even more?

I'll take a look at John MacArthur's video while studying Luke, Matthew, Mark. What's beautiful is how God's Word constantly shows us/me something new to learn.

Musicmaster, let's continue this discussion but at some point we need to arrive at a going forward solution, prompted by God, and will we give heed to Him?

God bless you, Major and Musicmaster and for sharing in this topic.

All good stuff!

 

[Major]

I can't think of a time that I didn't hear, whether through magazines, radio, TV, etc., that church-goers aren't tithing a full 10%, but rather an average of 1%.

Now, if that's true, what those people are saying (those who complain about church-goers not giving enough) is that institutional churches need that full 10%, which is ten times more than the average of the 1% they claim church-goers have been giving historically.

If all those institutions had ten times what they are taking in now, what would they do with it all? Larger facilities? New add-on gymnasiums? Remodel the offices to make them more plush or modern? Some might even start an outreach of food and other helps to meet needs more than they are now....if anything.

Now, Major is right. The Law was the Law, and the tithing requirement was tied to that Law by way of definition and governance.

Fact: The tithe all went for meeting needs and providing for the offerings in the temple. None of it went for upkeep of the temple, nor for the decorations or anything else that had to do with anything other than meeting real and genuine needs.

New Testament giving ALSO went exclusively for the meeting of needs, not facilities and professional staffing, etc., like what we see today.

Interestingly, while going through the Creation Science Museum here in Kentucky with my wife just today, we observed placards with the statements that the priests, by the second temple period, became increasingly politicized, and thus greedy; utilizing the tithe for personal gain and other things that were 180 degree departures from the primary purpose of meeting needs of people.

Hmm. Today, we see the same thing going on that the priesthood in the temple slipped into, which is to use the primary portion of the people's first fruits giving for things other than the meeting of needs. Christianity Today Magazine had an article they published years ago covering this phenomenon within the institutional church systems; in that the majority consumed the primary portion of people's giving...not for the meeting of needs, but for the purchase and upkeep of dead buildings and real estate, including programs and staffing.

So, this leads to the question: Are all the things institutional churches possess necessities, or are they luxuries. What are necessities? What are luxuries? Dare we define those terms in relation to real estate and buildings, the bandwagoneers suddenly become upset at the obvious implications.

That charismatic preacher I told y'all about earlier in this thread once claimed that none of us is responsible for our "tithe" if he ends up abusing any or all of it. That troubled me, because it was my belief that, as followers of Christ, especially dare we be mature in the faith, the responsibility in how we gave, and where we gave, was ours to begin with, and thus never relinquished nor placed upon someone else. In other words, if we give to what may be questionable, then we're responsible for them having what they got from us, and abuses still involve our being responsible.

So, should consideration and provision for a dead building and programs take top priority in the people's giving in how it's handled, or should the people exercise responsibility for their giving to ensure that the primary portion goes for the meeting of needs, leaving the remainder for the facility, programs and staffing? This has the aroma of them getting only 1% a more plausible and correct percentage of the people's giving, which is the organic percentage they claim to be getting historically. In other words, they are not entitled to the full 10% because of the great potential that they will abuse it rather than to handle it in accordance with the commands and examples provided in the very Book they claim to teach and follow.

These are some questions to ponder, given the tendencies within our religious systems of churches.

What say you all?

MM

You asked...........
" Are all the things institutional churches possess necessities, or are they luxuries. What are necessities? What are luxuries?"

Now that is the RIGHT question!!!!

What is needed and what is WANTED! Two very different things.

I can not prove anything I say to all of you. All I can say is what I have insisted at my church.

Every year a finance committee of 6 people produce a budget. Two of those people are bank presidents.
They look at what was spent last year and then try to determine what will be needed for the coming year.

We have a business meeting every month and a detailed financial report is given out to every person attending and questions are answered by the treasurer.

IF....IF something is NEEDED, lets say an air conditioner, the B&G committee finds the product and the finance approves it. THEN and only then is it brought to the church for its approval. When I retired, the church was 100% debt free and all bills were paid.

Churches that indiscriminately buy stuff because the Pastor says he wants it, is not in the will of God....IMO!

Several years ago....the man who replaced Rev. Bobby Welch at 1st Baptist of Daytona Bh. on his own said the church needed a new sound system. It was put in at a price of $25,000 and NO ONE approved it but him. Needless to say that when this became known, they needed a new Pastor.

 

[Major]

I can't think of a time that I didn't hear, whether through magazines, radio, TV, etc., that church-goers aren't tithing a full 10%, but rather an average of 1%.

Now, if that's true, what those people are saying (those who complain about church-goers not giving enough) is that institutional churches need that full 10%, which is ten times more than the average of the 1% they claim church-goers have been giving historically.

If all those institutions had ten times what they are taking in now, what would they do with it all? Larger facilities? New add-on gymnasiums? Remodel the offices to make them more plush or modern? Some might even start an outreach of food and other helps to meet needs more than they are now....if anything.

Now, Major is right. The Law was the Law, and the tithing requirement was tied to that Law by way of definition and governance.

Fact: The tithe all went for meeting needs and providing for the offerings in the temple. None of it went for upkeep of the temple, nor for the decorations or anything else that had to do with anything other than meeting real and genuine needs.

New Testament giving ALSO went exclusively for the meeting of needs, not facilities and professional staffing, etc., like what we see today.

Interestingly, while going through the Creation Science Museum here in Kentucky with my wife just today, we observed placards with the statements that the priests, by the second temple period, became increasingly politicized, and thus greedy; utilizing the tithe for personal gain and other things that were 180 degree departures from the primary purpose of meeting needs of people.

Hmm. Today, we see the same thing going on that the priesthood in the temple slipped into, which is to use the primary portion of the people's first fruits giving for things other than the meeting of needs. Christianity Today Magazine had an article they published years ago covering this phenomenon within the institutional church systems; in that the majority consumed the primary portion of people's giving...not for the meeting of needs, but for the purchase and upkeep of dead buildings and real estate, including programs and staffing.

So, this leads to the question: Are all the things institutional churches possess necessities, or are they luxuries. What are necessities? What are luxuries? Dare we define those terms in relation to real estate and buildings, the bandwagoneers suddenly become upset at the obvious implications.

That charismatic preacher I told y'all about earlier in this thread once claimed that none of us is responsible for our "tithe" if he ends up abusing any or all of it. That troubled me, because it was my belief that, as followers of Christ, especially dare we be mature in the faith, the responsibility in how we gave, and where we gave, was ours to begin with, and thus never relinquished nor placed upon someone else. In other words, if we give to what may be questionable, then we're responsible for them having what they got from us, and abuses still involve our being responsible.

So, should consideration and provision for a dead building and programs take top priority in the people's giving in how it's handled, or should the people exercise responsibility for their giving to ensure that the primary portion goes for the meeting of needs, leaving the remainder for the facility, programs and staffing? This has the aroma of them getting only 1% a more plausible and correct percentage of the people's giving, which is the organic percentage they claim to be getting historically. In other words, they are not entitled to the full 10% because of the great potential that they will abuse it rather than to handle it in accordance with the commands and examples provided in the very Book they claim to teach and follow.

These are some questions to ponder, given the tendencies within our religious systems of churches.

What say you all?

MM

I really do not know the % of those tithing in my church. I never see the money and I only know what is available at our monthly business meetings.

I do know that it is a lot more than 1%.

Dr. Billy Graham once wrote that he thought only 25% of church members were really saved so I would think that % would be close. I can say.......everyone "gives".

About 5 years ago an elderly man came to my office. He asked me if I would pray with him and of course I did. Then he asked if he could give me $2.00. He handed he 2 one dollar bills. Really........with tears in his eyes he asked for forgiveness because that was all he had.

My secretary ( for 20 years) went and gave that man $50.00 out of the churches petty cash fund with out asking. She did that because she knew that is what I would do. I did that mans funeral 2 months later when he died from cancer.

 

[forgiven61]

the things described above as per operations is great for the Bigger church. but not every Church has board with bank members on it. the tithe is between the giver and God . i have yet to ever preach on tithing . i tell my cong give from the heart it does take funds to operate a church. but in many Big churches they hire a pastor a associate pastor a music pastor a youth pastor plus other ministers on pay roll some just to do baptism .

pretty soon were so busy taking care of the building and meeting the payroll . we soon forgot to help those in the church that are in need . i wonder how many full time pastor would preach and pastor for nothing. clean the church mow the lawn

. My secretary ( for 20 years) went and gave that man $50.00 out of the churches petty cash fund with out asking. She did that because she knew that is what I would do. and that is what Church funds are to be used for

 

[Hopefull]

A preacher told me to give what you feel good about giving. Example: If $10 makes you feel good and you will grumble about giving $20, you are better off to give the $10. Personally a tithe (10%) shouldnt bother anyone but some it might.

 

[forgiven61]

A preacher told me to give what you feel good about giving. Example: If $10 makes you feel good and you will grumble about giving $20, you are better off to give the $10. Personally a tithe (10%) shouldnt bother anyone but some it might.

its between you and the Lord

 

[Major]

the things described above as per operations is great for the Bigger church. but not every Church has board with bank members on it. the tithe is between the giver and God . i have yet to ever preach on tithing . i tell my cong give from the heart it does take funds to operate a church. but in many Big churches they hire a pastor a associate pastor a music pastor a youth pastor plus other ministers on pay roll some just to do baptism .

The church I used as an example was NOT a large church my friend.

Every church should have a deacon board or elder committee for accountability.

Yes.......giving is always between man and his God.

And I as well have never given a sermon on tithing...never. Never needed to! I always said that if you like the leadership of your church and the direction it is going and God has your heart, then He should have your wallet as well. "God loves a cheerful giver"!

Churches that you described as..." they hire a pastor a associate pastor a music pastor a youth pastor " do so for 2 reasons.

1. There is a need.
2. God has provided the income to satisfy that need.

When those two elements come together, the church grows and God is glorified!

My prayer for you is that you will be able to see that happen in your church!!!

 

[forgiven61]

Churches that you described as..." they hire a pastor a associate pastor a music pastor a youth pastor " do so for 2 reasons.

1. There is a need.
2. God has provided the income to satisfy that need.

that may well be seen where jack graham hired a apologetic pastor. my thoughts he holds a dr degree .i can see couple extra pastors in a mega church. pretty soon your pastor poor. God called deacons that understand their calling are a Big plus. Deacons who think they run the church run the pastor. they are not needed over the years i have watched deacons run the show and i ve seen pastors be a one man show . the church is the body of Christ and the members should have say by vote . the true office of a deacon is to serve the Church while the pastor does study time. i am not a board fan

 

[Major]

that may well be seen where jack graham hired a apologetic pastor. my thoughts he holds a dr degree .i can see couple extra pastors in a mega church. pretty soon your pastor poor. God called deacons that understand their calling are a Big plus. Deacons who think they run the church run the pastor. they are not needed over the years i have watched deacons run the show and i ve seen pastors be a one man show . the church is the body of Christ and the members should have say by vote . the true office of a deacon is to serve the Church while the pastor does study time. i am not a board fan

God has richly blessed Dr. Graham. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a church hiring people to do the ministry needed. That is what deacon do by the way.........help the pastor.

I am sure that there are churches where deacons have HAD TO RUN the church in the absense of a Pastor, but once one is located, they should step down to serve that Pastor. I have never had any deacons or elders run the church. The very 1st meeting I always had at a new church was with the Deacon and explain to them what the Bible says their job is. They serve at the behest of the leadership or they are asked to resign...PEROID!

Any man who tries to be a "one man show" as you stated, will fail!

Yes......every church should vote on the issues brought forward by the leadership, no matter what it is.

Any good pastor will use his deacon through "delegation" to get done the things he can not do.

I instituted the "Deacon Ministry" many years ago. the church membership was divided up with Each deacon being assigned a certain number of family units. Every deacon was required to send a post card every month, a phone call every other month and a personal visit twice a year to each assigned family unit. If any candidate did not agree to this kind of ministry, they were excluded from being ordained.

When a family need was discovered, food, dr. bill. illness etc. it was brought to the other deacons in their monthly meeting. If it was an emergency, a special sub-group of deacons responded. A hungry child can not wait on a bunch of men to meet.

This kind of delegation allowed me to focus on real personal issues among the congregation, and sermon prep. and the production of training manuals and book work.

I would not attempt such a calling as a Pastor of a congregation without that kind of help!

 

[forgiven61]

God has richly blessed Dr. Graham. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a church hiring people to do the ministry needed. That is what deacon do by the way.........help the pastor.

i like jack graham i have listened to him many times. i have also listened to him on the radio he takes intermission to sell his product as per the rest we live in two separate worlds. i have seen enough junk and experienced enough junk to cause ulcers. from seeing so called preachers and deacons it is sad to have said what i have witnessed and experienced . in the ministry you have to stand for something or your bound fall for anything

 

[Major]

i like jack graham i have listened to him many times. i have also listened to him on the radio he takes intermission to sell his product as per the rest we live in two separate worlds. i have seen enough junk and experienced enough junk to cause ulcers. from seeing so called preachers and deacons it is sad to have said what i have witnessed and experienced . in the ministry you have to stand for something or your bound fall for anything

I would venture to say without hesitation that I have seen more bad junk than you have. However.........
That is not a reason to condemn all those who work hard to do right........IMHO.

Just because God has blessed a certain ministry financially, IMHO is not a reason to think that there is any "junk" involved.

YES, I agree 100% in that there are bad ministers and bad deacons. There are also bad doctors, and bad policemen and bad air plane pilots. That is and always has been a systemic problem and it always will be.

1 Corth 10:12......
"So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall."

In the ministry....Every minister must stand for the Word of God and every believer must stand with the Lord Jesus Christ. If not, then both will fail!

 

[forgiven61]

I would venture to say without hesitation that I have seen more bad junk than you have. However.........
That is not a reason to condemn all those who work hard to do right........

i never said you had not i dont see it as a condemn.