Tithing - A Systematic Study

Hello Major;

I want to further my thoughts to what you and MM were discussing. "Institutional church refers to organized groups of professing Christians who meet in designated church buildings and follow prescribed schedules for weekly worship and teaching." In the church institutional includes "autonomous governance" of an individual church ordained by God's plan and purpose and this is where tithing or offering gets sticky, unfortunately. For example,

Our church tried to impose a commitment document called faith giving that is required by each member to sign in their pledge of giving back to the Lord. This was rejected because the person who suggested it did not know the history of our church's finances from giving. As their pastor I didn't know who gave or how much, except to pray as an overseer of the BOD and God's money. As of today we've never had a huge checking account but as God as my witness we have no debt aside from expenses, insurance, salaries, benevolence, mission giving, etc...When there was a time of need by a member we were prepared because we know each individual of our church family.

In your remark, "the New Testament contains no evidence that obedient Christians ever decided they “didn’t like church” and refused to participate." I agree with you and well, in my experience when Christians decided they didn't like church refused to participate also included their lack of giving their personal time serving or monetary back to the Lord. Either the pastor or church leadership isn't ministering to the individual for fear of sustaining numbers or offering to pray and encourage them to ask the Lord to guide them to the church where they can participate and serve. This does not replace the place of worship to our God.

Hello,
Musicmaster;

Let's both observe, brother. In my post I feel what I shared aligns with your post of the widow, the two coins, the corruption of the temple leaders, perhaps in different views, but overall I feel we are in alignment with each other and I agree with you. If you meant that the widow was buying her way into heaven, then Jesus would have seen right through her. What He did see was her sacrificial giving, which was more than all of them put together, that was the point of the widow's giving. Now, if what you meant was the leader's message to her then this is false teaching and it's sinfully wrong. Once again, this is what Jesus was pointing out, how the leaders manipulate the weak and vulnerable.

As far as the giving of church goers an average of 1%, this is correct and it's also intentional. How many chose to purchase something on timely payments and pay more each month, yet, what measly little is left in their pocket when they give their 1% back to God? In both cases, the individual made a choice. I have heard Christians too many times say, "well, I needed this material thing to live." Don't we need God even more?

I'll take a look at John MacArthur's video while studying Luke, Matthew, Mark. What's beautiful is how God's Word constantly shows us/me something new to learn.

Musicmaster, let's continue this discussion but at some point we need to arrive at a going forward solution, prompted by God, and will we give heed to Him?

God bless you, Major and Musicmaster and for sharing in this topic.

Hello, Bob.

I fully agree with forging a path forward for a solution to the many, many dilemmas created by way of centuries worth of bad theology and bad practices, and just downright false teaching that has mostly dominated the thinking of so many for so long.

I visited a church organization once that had a very novel approach to this topic, but will talk about that later since I'm sure there are a number of methodologies that can be patterned in such was as to be consistent with the word of God.

MM
 
Everyone:

I'd like to back off from the smaller segments of the portrait within each of your churches and personal experiences, and look at this from a much broader more holistic vantagepoint. Venture outward and upward to that higher and more expansive vantagepoint with me, if you will. Individual experience is one thing, but when it comes to scripture as the defining authority for it all, THAT is the panorama upon which the individual expressions should root themselves. If we can agree on that, then how about this:

Perspective is EVERYTHING....

1) Let's first look at the biblical model in NT giving. What did it look like? Where did it go? How was it used, and for what?

2) What do those realities in question set #1 show to us about God's thoughts about the priorities in our giving?

3) Is the biblical model for giving relevant for us today? If not, then why?

4) What is the institutional model, and how does giving to it as one's primary direction for giving differ from the biblical model?

5) What would Paul of Tarsus say were he to walk into the modern, institutional church facility, look at their books, and observe the priorities in how the giving is handled? Would he think it aligns with his experience and model with which he was familiar, or would he see it as having gone off-track from what is written in the very book we claim to believe in and follow?

6) More importantly, what would the Lord Himself say if ever He walked into modern, institutional churches and comment on how they handle the primary portion of the people's giving in relation to what He inspired to be written in the Bible?

7) Knowing that there's no way on this side of the Kingdom that the institutional system will ever change its ways, with it being mired in the depths of centuries of tradition, what changes would you see as being the most needful within the institutional system and how it handles the people's giving? [Please keep in mind that it matters not one bit that any one organization could have a thousand deacon board, that would never make right anything that is being handled contrary to the biblical model for the (C)hurch (captial "C").]

We can delve down into the dirt and gravel of details of individual churches for the duration of time, and still miss the bigger picture that should define all that is within the scope of its portraiture. Let's leave the pixels behind for the time being, and try to grasp together the full span of the panorama that was designed by the Most High as our guide.

MM
 
the tithe goes to the store house/church from there we are to be good stewards... and should be used to support the church and those in need. of course there are many want a handout . i have seen this a buddy of mine is a pastor had this person needed gas money instead of giving money. they took him to the gas station filled the tank up and paid. for it. in turn the person got mad. i will say this your giving is between you and the Lord. i been told of churches keeping tabs on your giving and if your behind they send you notice.

at our church we try to help where we can. one example the Church we use to attend burnt insurance company gave them the run around.. they had take legal action .they purchased through loan another building. while putting back funds to rebuild.. the pastor passed away from covid instead of flowers. we donated to the building fund in his name . we have helped with a funeral that is what we try to do. were small in numbers but God has given us funds to operate on. we purchased a new heat air unit in less than 6 months


hat changes would you see as being the most needful within the institutional system and how it handles the people's giving?

take care of those in need in the church first . then those outside
 
depends on who you ask. Jesus taught tithing .once again its matter between the person and GOD

Could you elaborate on that for us?

Where and how did Jesus teach tithing?

In other words, was His teaching to those people, at that time, those who were still under the Law at that time, on the basis of the Law still being in effect for them since it was before the cross, and the passing of the cup of the New Covenant?

When you say that it's between God and the individual, I assume you're talking about the people and time after the passing of that cup, since before that passing of the cup, it was not optional for those who had producing lands and/or livestock.

Can we agree that Jesus did not tithe, and was not required to tithe since He did not possess producing lands and/or livestock, or even a garden?

Just trying to get a feel for your take on all this since I have a keen interest in the perspectives of others.

Also, how would you answer the questions I posed in post #46 of this thread?

Thanks

MM
 
Folks, please understand that I'm not trying to force any kind of wedge of requirements between the Lord and each of you when it comes to giving. My aim here is to try and get us all looking at the same authority together, which is the examples of giving in the epistles, the first century Church, and the priorities they exemplified in their primary giving.

They had a focus and direction from which I think we can all learn as the means that define for us our priorities in giving. Dare we deviate from that example, I seek answers as to when and where that shift in priorities ever took place, and by what authority.

I've been told numerous times that modern practices in how people's giving is handled, which is primarily defined by long-standing traditions, and therefore written in stone, is consistent with the NT example. To date, I have not been able to see the continuity, make that connection, and I have yet to find anyone who can justify this radical shift in priorities; better yet, the 'addition' of priorities and their rearrangements, and how such came about in good conscience, and by what authority.

I don't mean to pose any kind of dilemma for anyone, it's just that I can't seem to wrap my brain around this massive shift and intermixing of elements that seemingly have been introduced on the basis of benevolent sounding language, but still a departure from what is written in the Bible.

Many have said that they don't see any shift, which indicates that they are wearing some serious blinders, or are experiencing a huge measure of tunnel vision that makes it seemingly impossible for them to get past in order to see the defining imagery of scripture. They have given much lip service to what's written, but the addition of priorities escapes my ability to make the connections.

Therein is why I addressed the topics of 'necessities' and 'luxuries'. They are not one and the same. It would be interesting to see what each one here places under each of the two headings. For example, I've been told that buildings are a necessity for the heat, air conditioning and comfortable seating are absolute necessity. That is an addition to the examples of NT writings, not at all a part of them, thus my reason for questioning the idea of buildings being a necessity. Yes, they met in homes, which are buildings, but they were not pouring their primary giving into those things, but rather into people to meet their genuine needs before anything else.

Bobinfaith asked that I define things better, and lay them out in grater, more simplified detail, and I hope this has tackled that task with flying colors. :)

If not, then ask and I will elaborate. What I'm after are the thoughts of all you folks.

Does that make sense?

MM
 
Could you elaborate on that for us?

Where and how did Jesus teach tithing?

In other words, was His teaching to those people, at that time, those who were still under the Law at that time, on the basis of the Law still being in effect for them since it was before the cross, and the passing of the cup of the New Covenant?

When you say that it's between God and the individual, I assume you're talking about the people and time after the passing of that cup, since before that passing of the cup, it was not optional for those who had producing lands and/or livestock.

Can we agree that Jesus did not tithe, and was not required to tithe since He did not possess producing lands and/or livestock, or even a garden?

Just trying to get a feel for your take on all this since I have a keen interest in the perspectives of others.

Also, how would you answer the questions I posed in post #46 of this thread?

Thanks

MM

Matthew 23:22-24



22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!.. .

i will say this one last time out of respect . the tithe is between the giver and the Lord . i dont preach on giving a tithe .o do have some who do now then to answer depend on who you ask. that is exactly what i mean its another one of them subjects . that some believe in giving %10 some do not. we have a local church around here that is trying to pay there building off. they have auctions of items people donated .. were talking registered dog worth thousands of dollars.. maybe i am over stretching a bit.. but i have seen some sell close to a thousand.

this has been going on for months om sorry i am all for helping a church out any denom... but imo it has gone to far. if the church votes to build it.. the church needs pay . this is where a tithe can come in . your subject matter is like the debate osas osnas
 

Matthew 23:22-24​

22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!.. .

i will say this one last time out of respect . the tithe is between the giver and the Lord . i dont preach on giving a tithe .o do have some who do now then to answer depend on who you ask. that is exactly what i mean its another one of them subjects . that some believe in giving %10 some do not. we have a local church around here that is trying to pay there building off. they have auctions of items people donated .. were talking registered dog worth thousands of dollars.. maybe i am over stretching a bit.. but i have seen some sell close to a thousand.

this has been going on for months om sorry i am all for helping a church out any denom... but imo it has gone to far. if the church votes to build it.. the church needs pay . this is where a tithe can come in . your subject matter is like the debate osas osnas

F61, nobody is debating here. I simply asked for you to elaborate about what Jesus said, to whom He said it, and under what covenant.

If you prefer to not discuss that, then I'm fine with your avoidance. I did ask some pointed questions so that we could all learn if you had some insights that we had not thought of.

I do agree with you in that a group of people should pay for the luxuries they agree to finance together.

The topic in question in this thread is about the priorities exemplified in scripture...specifically the epistles and the book of Acts, etc.

Anyone who doesn't wish to discuss any of this have every right to avoid the discussion. I think we can all learn something here, with the word of God as the sole authority in determining truth from error.

Blessings to you all.

MM
 
God has richly blessed Dr. Graham.

Well, I'm no prophet, and thus able to say who is anointed with God's blessing, and who is not. What I CAN say, at least about one of Graham's crusades I worked at as a counselor, I was struck speechless when I saw the army of counselors who were roman catholic, some of them being priests from local parishes, allowed to work within Graham's crusade and draw people over into their religion who came forward to the altar call. And then to hear him talking remotely to Robert Schuller, talking about how there is salvation outside of Christ because of the "broadness" of God's grace. :eek: Folks, there are text copies of what Graham said, and he clearly believed there is salvation without fully believing and trusting in Christ Jesus.

Many a minister and ministry are successful, and yet totally departed from God's true doctrines and practices, and thus are totally inconsistent with His word to us.

Now, here's another thought about this: God uses men all over the world to accomplish His purpose. If God could use a man such as pharaoh, then He can use disobedient and false teaching men too when it comes to reaching the lost. I'm no judge of Graham himself, but I certainly didn't like his words with Schuller in that broadcast, and what I saw in his crusades.

The RCC still strictly demands tithes from its followers. Those allegedly saved through Mary must pay a heavy price from their wages to enjoy such things as their kids attending parochial schools...at least here locally. One roman catholic acquaintance of mine, a single mother here locally, told me recently about her having lost her job, and her kids pulled out of class a couple weeks later and sent home when the school was told by the parish priest that she had stopped tithing. With no income, how was she going to tithe? No mercy, and no grace from their coredemptrix Mary for that woman. The manicured and gold plated finger of Mary's judgement was jabbed into that woman's gut full force. (Yes, I have had roman catholic acquaintances here locally who fully believe that their Mary is a coredemptrix with their Jesus, and therefore filled with divinity just as their Jesus has. I kid you not.) They consider themselves to be 'conservative catholics'.

Please understand that I'm not disparaging Graham or the RCC. This is about beliefs and teachings, not the people. I leave the people to God for Him to deal with as He so chooses.

MM
 
Well, I'm no prophet, and thus able to say who is anointed with God's blessing, and who is not. What I CAN say, at least about one of Graham's crusades I worked at as a counselor, I was struck speechless when I saw the army of counselors who were roman catholic, some of them being priests from local parishes, allowed to work within Graham's crusade and draw people over into their religion who came forward to the altar call. And then to hear him talking remotely to Robert Schuller, talking about how there is salvation outside of Christ because of the "broadness" of God's grace. :eek: Folks, there are text copies of what Graham said, and he clearly believed there is salvation without fully believing and trusting in Christ Jesus.

Many a minister and ministry are successful, and yet totally departed from God's true doctrines and practices, and thus are totally inconsistent with His word to us.

Now, here's another thought about this: God uses men all over the world to accomplish His purpose. If God could use a man such as pharaoh, then He can use disobedient and false teaching men too when it comes to reaching the lost. I'm no judge of Graham himself, but I certainly didn't like his words with Schuller in that broadcast, and what I saw in his crusades.

The RCC still strictly demands tithes from its followers. Those allegedly saved through Mary must pay a heavy price from their wages to enjoy such things as their kids attending parochial schools...at least here locally. One roman catholic acquaintance of mine, a single mother here locally, told me recently about her having lost her job, and her kids pulled out of class a couple weeks later and sent home when the school was told by the parish priest that she had stopped tithing. With no income, how was she going to tithe? No mercy, and no grace from their coredemptrix Mary for that woman. The manicured and gold plated finger of Mary's judgement was jabbed into that woman's gut full force. (Yes, I have had roman catholic acquaintances here locally who fully believe that their Mary is a coredemptrix with their Jesus, and therefore filled with divinity just as their Jesus has. I kid you not.) They consider themselves to be 'conservative catholics'.

Please understand that I'm not disparaging Graham or the RCC. This is about beliefs and teachings, not the people. I leave the people to God for Him to deal with as He so chooses.

MM
That is some really depressing news. I hate to hear this! Thanks for the insights MM.
 
Folks, please understand that I'm not trying to force any kind of wedge of requirements between the Lord and each of you when it comes to giving. My aim here is to try and get us all looking at the same authority together, which is the examples of giving in the epistles, the first century Church, and the priorities they exemplified in their primary giving.

They had a focus and direction from which I think we can all learn as the means that define for us our priorities in giving. Dare we deviate from that example, I seek answers as to when and where that shift in priorities ever took place, and by what authority.

I've been told numerous times that modern practices in how people's giving is handled, which is primarily defined by long-standing traditions, and therefore written in stone, is consistent with the NT example. To date, I have not been able to see the continuity, make that connection, and I have yet to find anyone who can justify this radical shift in priorities; better yet, the 'addition' of priorities and their rearrangements, and how such came about in good conscience, and by what authority.

I don't mean to pose any kind of dilemma for anyone, it's just that I can't seem to wrap my brain around this massive shift and intermixing of elements that seemingly have been introduced on the basis of benevolent sounding language, but still a departure from what is written in the Bible.

Many have said that they don't see any shift, which indicates that they are wearing some serious blinders, or are experiencing a huge measure of tunnel vision that makes it seemingly impossible for them to get past in order to see the defining imagery of scripture. They have given much lip service to what's written, but the addition of priorities escapes my ability to make the connections.

Therein is why I addressed the topics of 'necessities' and 'luxuries'. They are not one and the same. It would be interesting to see what each one here places under each of the two headings. For example, I've been told that buildings are a necessity for the heat, air conditioning and comfortable seating are absolute necessity. That is an addition to the examples of NT writings, not at all a part of them, thus my reason for questioning the idea of buildings being a necessity. Yes, they met in homes, which are buildings, but they were not pouring their primary giving into those things, but rather into people to meet their genuine needs before anything else.

Bobinfaith asked that I define things better, and lay them out in grater, more simplified detail, and I hope this has tackled that task with flying colors. :)

If not, then ask and I will elaborate. What I'm after are the thoughts of all you folks.

Does that make sense?

MM
You said......
"Bobinfaith asked that I define things better, and lay them out in grater, more simplified detail, and I hope this has tackled that task with flying colors."

I am sure he did that because he knows that I am an old country boy from U.A. and we have to have things on a simple level!;)
 
F61, nobody is debating here. I simply asked for you to elaborate about what Jesus said, to whom He said it, and under what covenant.

If you prefer to not discuss that, then I'm fine with your avoidance. I did ask some pointed questions so that we could all learn if you had some insights that we had not thought of.

I do agree with you in that a group of people should pay for the luxuries they agree to finance together.

The topic in question in this thread is about the priorities exemplified in scripture...specifically the epistles and the book of Acts, etc.

Anyone who doesn't wish to discuss any of this have every right to avoid the discussion. I think we can all learn something here, with the word of God as the sole authority in determining truth from error.

Blessings to you all.

MM

Agreed. And if anyone does not want to learn or be exposed to others thoughts then do not participate!
 

Matthew 23:22-24​

22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!.. .

i will say this one last time out of respect . the tithe is between the giver and the Lord . i dont preach on giving a tithe .o do have some who do now then to answer depend on who you ask. that is exactly what i mean its another one of them subjects . that some believe in giving %10 some do not. we have a local church around here that is trying to pay there building off. they have auctions of items people donated .. were talking registered dog worth thousands of dollars.. maybe i am over stretching a bit.. but i have seen some sell close to a thousand.

this has been going on for months om sorry i am all for helping a church out any denom... but imo it has gone to far. if the church votes to build it.. the church needs pay . this is where a tithe can come in . your subject matter is like the debate osas osnas

With all due respect to you, it would help all of us to understand what you are saying if you would use "Spell Check". It is impossible to follow your posts !!
 
the spell checks errors was i hit a o instead of a i i wasn't watching my key board real close. besides i speak not write or type. it really wasn't that hard to figure out. besides it was my first mistake of the year . i have to wonder if peter ever spelled wrong him being a fisherman
 
the spell checks errors was i hit a o instead of a i i wasn't watching my key board real close. besides i speak not write or type. it really wasn't that hard to figure out. besides it was my first mistake of the year . i have to wonder if peter ever spelled wrong him being a fisherman
I am not trying to make you defensive but in fact trying to help you.

But the conversation was not about Peter. I am simply asking you to post your thoughts in a clear manner so we can understand what "YOU" are saying.

The truth is that It is actually not up to anyone to "figure out" what anyone is saying my friend.

All of us here make a real effort to "Watch our keyboards" so that others can easily read what we are saying.

As for " besides i speak not write or type.". That also is not germane as YOU are in fact writing by typing on a keyboard.
 
its not that impossible other than i used a o where i should used a i . my post is plain and clear odder dan dat it loos pretty good lol.
And this ............"its not that impossible other than i used a o where i should used a i . my post is plain and clear odder dan dat it loos pretty good."

Is exactly the perfect example of what I was telling you. NO ONE knows what you just said!!!!!!!:(
 
I am not trying to make you defensive but in fact trying to help you.

But the conversation was not about Peter. I am simply asking you to post your thoughts in a clear manner so we can understand what "YOU" are saying.

The truth is that It is actually not up to anyone to "figure out" what anyone is saying my friend.

All of us here make a real effort to "Watch our keyboards" so that others can easily read what we are saying.

As for " besides i speak not write or type.". That also is not germane as YOU are in fact writing by typing on a keyboard.

So, what you're saying then, Major, is that anything worth saying at all is worth saying clearly?

What if I WANT to be cryptic, and therefore keep everyone off balance?

...oh, never mind. I do that already...:rolleyes:

MM
 
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