See JW/Mormons/Muslims/Sda etc, all claim to have a Jesus, but NONE of them have the real one as found in the Bible!So what Jesus and Gospel do these MANY have?
See JW/Mormons/Muslims/Sda etc, all claim to have a Jesus, but NONE of them have the real one as found in the Bible!So what Jesus and Gospel do these MANY have?
See JW/Mormons/Muslims/Sda etc, all claim to have a Jesus, but NONE of them have the real one as found in the Bible!
They will affirm that Jesus is the son of God, that he died for sins, that he arose again, but their Jesus is NOT the real One!You are so very correct my brother!
Ask any JW if they are a Christian and see what they tell you.
Ask any Mormon if they are a Christian and see what try tell you.
Now allow me to tell you what God said about this in Luke 13:24-27 .......
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, LORD, LORD, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."
They will affirm that Jesus is the son of God, that he died for sins, that he arose again, but their Jesus is NOT the real One!
It goes so far.....IMHO, that if a person reads any chapter in the Bible of any book and does not see Jesus Christ, then that is the failure of understanding who wrote the book and who is the center of reality.
Jesus is the blazing center of all reality and if we miss that ......unity becomes almost impossible to have.
MusicMaster, this is YOUR thread. What do you think?
Hello Major;
Now these are statements that light my fire for Christ! "Jesus is the blazing center!"
Keeping in mind the lesson of not seeing the center, "then that is the failure of understanding"
One of my church family who is a gentle and quiet brother, has always loved attending worship services and Bible study. Last Sunday he was given the opportunity to read the Scripture. The next day during worship when he came up front to read, he got nervous for not being used to speaking in front of the congregation. But he went ahead and read out loud but what was amazing is he exhorted the Scriptures from his own lips understanding exactly what he was reading.
This greatly encouraged the congregation. After service he was hard on himself for being nervous. We uplifted him by thanking him and asked if he would be willing to read again in the near future, he rejoiced, YES!
Major, I feel you can relate. When a brother or sister show a sign of their personal growth, they are encouraged in their participation of the unity.
Personally, this was a nice shot in the arm for me yesterday.
A Christian does not have to be a Catholic to know and acknowledge the role our Father God used the virgin mother to play in his plan of salvation for mankind. It saddens me to see people disparage her the way you have done in this post. Calling her their Mary is derogatory. We know how people respect, adore and hold in high esteem Presidents, Queens and Kings of this world, not to talk of their biological mothers. And, when it comes to honouring the virgin Mary, who gave birth to our saviour Jesus Christ, they talk nonsense.
The RCC respect , honour, reverence her because our Father God first honoured, blessed and favoured her above all women. What is wrong with this?
I am very sure the Catholics do not worship Mary and she has never been an object of their worship as a deity. Just as we read the scriptures sometimes and believe we have understood what we have read and we run with that, not knowing that our understanding is below par, so, we see some if their practices, we form opinions believing we understand.
Even, some Catholics themselves, unfortunately, do not have a good grasp of what they do but this is not peculiar to them. It cuts across denominations. There is so much ignorance of the way of the cross even among us here in CC. But we take solace in the fact that knowledge and understanding is "progressive". We grow in grace.
Yes, I know the Catholics ask for her intercessions in prayers. I do not know why we find this strange. How does this remove the fact that Jesus is the only saviour of the world and our mediator as it is written, which they believe also.
If you read your bible well, you will see that even Paul encouraged his gentile converts to always pray for him and the Ministry and he constantly prayed for them as well. When our children get sick for instance, what do we do? we pray for their quick recovery even if we take them to the hospital. Pastors pray on behalf of people as well. These are all intercessory prayers, not different from what the RCCs do in relation to the virgin mother. They request her to pray for them. People say, the difference is that she is dead. Search the scriptures and you will see that it is written, God is not the God of the dead but of the living for all who died in him live unto him. Jesus gave the example of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Or, do we talk about the presence of Elijah and Moses during his transfiguration.
Whether we know and acknowledge it or not, she is continuing to intercede for us the way she interceded at that wedding at Cana in Galilee where there was no wine, nobody asked for it, she saw the lack and besought her son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
For me, she is truly worthy to be called our Queen mother (why not).
The queen of heaven and earth and we accord her all the respect, honour, reverence and blessings our Lord God bestowed on her.
JW call Jesus son of God, ther Messiah, but to them is just Michael the head angel!I am not sure about that brother. The JW's I know personally will say that Jesus was a great man, a prophet and a teache but never that He was the Go
The Mormons hold to multiply Gods, as all mormon men married in the temple can aspire to being a god themselves! And Rome still officially calls Pauline Justification Anathema!Well, you do like inviting trouble...huh?
Seriously, though, I was an active mormon for about a year or less before I started asking questions based upon the unbiblical things I started learning about their deeper beliefs they never reveal to prospective converts. I was sucked in my their love for being together more like a family, which should be going on in all church organizations, but isn't. It was a tract that showed me the questions to ask, and when I experienced the anger from my daring to ask questions, that's when my Southern Baptist upbringing started kicking in. I quickly removed myself from their get-togethers, distanced myself from their missionary friends I had befriended, and launched out into a deeper study of their doctrines and history.
So, when it comes to those various groupings, including the RCC Jesus and Mary, et al, there can never be unity when the Lord Himself is not the One they define within their writings and teachings. Uniformity by combining with them would be like wearing a clown outfit with differing colors of brlightly colored cloth sewn together into a tattered looking mockery of unity.
Dr. John Barnett spoke of a large gathering in Kalamazoo, MI, where the local bishop and priests were putting on an ecumenical gathering to try and put together a large enough event to fill the local coliseum. They invited representatives of about every religion imaginable, even witch doctors from Oklahoma Indian tribes.
Folks, the lack of discernment in the RCC leadership is staggering, to say the least. The liberal denominations also involved in that event only speaks louder volumes to just how low some will sink in the name of a contrived unity.
The clear agenda in all this, in the thinking of the powers and principalities of the air, is to further separate true believers from false, and to draw people straddling the fence further down the road of compromise along the broad path that leads to destruction.
But please remember...there will be a countless number who will run back to true salvation in Christ Jesus in the Tribulation period. They are those who will not be entering the wedding banquet because they had no oil for their lamps when He came and let in those who were there with lit lamps, and therefore ready. That parable doesn't say those without oil were lost and cast into eternal fire, just not allowed in when He came because of their lack of preparation at the moment when it mattered. Although that parable doesn't talk about those left outside being subject to the Tribulation headed their way along the outer streets that they will not escape, for many will turn to Christ Jesus once they realize what it is they missed out on.
I could write for hours on this, but suffice it to say that unity requires uniformity for those of us in the grouping of Truth. The clown outfit brigade are skipping along that broad path with deceived glee and joy until they approach that precipice, smell the sulfur and brimstone, and see the lake of fire awaiting them over the edge. Dare they try to run back, and the press of those behind them will only hinder their retreat as they are pushed forward by all those behind.
MM
MM
There are indeed saved Catholics, but saved despite official Catholic doctrine and dogma!Here is a copy of a post from another board from a guy who thought he could defend the RCC practice of venerating and praying to Mary. We clearly have very little in common for unity with this kind of belief system. I little leaven leavens the whole loaf...
infinitekhanol said:
Disparage her? Why sensationalize what I said into that arena? Does that somehow lend more credibility to your accusation? Does it remedy the problems they create with all the various teachings about her that have become deeply entrenched into their belief system? There is so much more to all this than you have allowed into your vastly limited position.
Did you notice the differing terms in your statements? You said that its the RCC that pays "reverence" to their Mary, but not God. There's no argument that Mary was indeed blessed above other women:
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.
Notice that she was blessed AMONG women, but favored above them for...bearing the physical vessel the eternal Son inhabited. Yes.
However, the issues and problems do not stop there. If that were the only extent to what is accorded to her, then we would not be having this conversation. It would be a non-issue, but pretending this is the extent in totality...no. It's far more than this.
There is a difference. Where scripture is concerned, we are told this:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
When it comes to the catechisms and the observed practices, there is no need for divine interpretation for understanding, so trying to align the two as if they are a parallel to one another is an exercise in futility. The three Hebrew boys who were thrown into the furnace for their refusal to give even the APPEARANCE of evil, that speaks loud volumes to the compromises and downright evils that are presented in the overall panorama of what we can see in what is written, said, prayed and done in her name within the RCC.
Who are you? Have the members of the RCC made you their spokesperson? You certainly aren't speaking from the scriptures:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Perhaps YOU are trying to "grow in grace," but I and many others have already received it in full, with it having been bestowed upon us to the full extent of salvation without any question for the assumed need for purging. The Jesus described within the pages of the Bible is not the same Jesus they teach and revere. The Jesus of the Bible, said, "It is finished." The RCC adds to the words of Jesus by teaching, "It was only finished to the extent of salvation, but not complete remission and cleansing away of all sins." The Jesus of the Bible does not need a co-mediator:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Nowhere in that context do we see the Lord and Creator of us all including Mary as a mediator. They have subjectively added her as another avenue. Why? If you speak for them, then perhaps you can answer that.
Making that desire for "intercession" into a minimal item of concern in an attempt to trivialize the objections is just another manipulative tactic that doesn't work on me. You either believe what Jesus said, or you do not. That's the dividing line. Trying to paint around the confines of Christ alone, in yellow stripes, in order to try and expand the intermediary borders around where Christ alone is our mediator. that only highlights your own lack of understanding and discernment.
You make it sound so innocent and easy, as if it were no big deal to include Mary as a mediator. Well, we both know Mary is not the only one they pray to. Your skills at minimalizing vastly important issues that have ramifications far beyond what you attribute to them in relation to the Bible only shows that YOU obviously don't read your Bible well.
Seriously? Why is it that YOU don't accept what the Bible says? Please show me where Paul encouraged ANYONE to pray to Mary or any of the other dead people (yes, they are dead...to this world, obviously) who the RCC subjectively "sainted." Where does the word of God encourage us to ask those who are gone from this world to intercede or do anything on our behalf.
Beyond that, please explain to us how it does not attribute to Mary and the others the powers and nature of God for them to hear every person on this earth who prays to them (omnipresence and omniscience). How do you know they have those abilities? Do you believe that because the RCC teaches it? Pretending that this is all harmless and of no consequence only betrays your lack in any desire to allow scripture to speak for itself in an authoritative foundation for truth.
And He THEN asked her: John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
She clearly was out of line, and He explained why, although he honored her and the wedding party with the best wine they had ever drank. You can speculate all you want about the reasons why He went ahead and honored the request and the wishes of the other people there, but to try and transplant that off into eternity the idea that RCC people's prayers are heard and expressed by her in like manner to Jesus is nothing more than human ingenuity for invention of doctrine.
No, the question is WHY? That's of pagan origin, the concept and designation "queen of heaven." Why paganize Mary with a title originating and couched in that type of positional accolade? Why would you or anyone else do that to her?
Again, why? She was not sinless, and was therefore in need of a Savior just like all the rest of us. Why believe what is contrary to the written word of God?
MM
Here is a copy of a post from another board from a guy who thought he could defend the RCC practice of venerating and praying to Mary. We clearly have very little in common for unity with this kind of belief system. I little leaven leavens the whole loaf...
infinitekhanol said:
Disparage her? Why sensationalize what I said into that arena? Does that somehow lend more credibility to your accusation? Does it remedy the problems they create with all the various teachings about her that have become deeply entrenched into their belief system? There is so much more to all this than you have allowed into your vastly limited position.
Did you notice the differing terms in your statements? You said that its the RCC that pays "reverence" to their Mary, but not God. There's no argument that Mary was indeed blessed above other women:
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.
Notice that she was blessed AMONG women, but favored above them for...bearing the physical vessel the eternal Son inhabited. Yes.
However, the issues and problems do not stop there. If that were the only extent to what is accorded to her, then we would not be having this conversation. It would be a non-issue, but pretending this is the extent in totality...no. It's far more than this.
There is a difference. Where scripture is concerned, we are told this:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
When it comes to the catechisms and the observed practices, there is no need for divine interpretation for understanding, so trying to align the two as if they are a parallel to one another is an exercise in futility. The three Hebrew boys who were thrown into the furnace for their refusal to give even the APPEARANCE of evil, that speaks loud volumes to the compromises and downright evils that are presented in the overall panorama of what we can see in what is written, said, prayed and done in her name within the RCC.
Who are you? Have the members of the RCC made you their spokesperson? You certainly aren't speaking from the scriptures:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Perhaps YOU are trying to "grow in grace," but I and many others have already received it in full, with it having been bestowed upon us to the full extent of salvation without any question for the assumed need for purging. The Jesus described within the pages of the Bible is not the same Jesus they teach and revere. The Jesus of the Bible, said, "It is finished." The RCC adds to the words of Jesus by teaching, "It was only finished to the extent of salvation, but not complete remission and cleansing away of all sins." The Jesus of the Bible does not need a co-mediator:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Nowhere in that context do we see the Lord and Creator of us all including Mary as a mediator. They have subjectively added her as another avenue. Why? If you speak for them, then perhaps you can answer that.
Making that desire for "intercession" into a minimal item of concern in an attempt to trivialize the objections is just another manipulative tactic that doesn't work on me. You either believe what Jesus said, or you do not. That's the dividing line. Trying to paint around the confines of Christ alone, in yellow stripes, in order to try and expand the intermediary borders around where Christ alone is our mediator. that only highlights your own lack of understanding and discernment.
You make it sound so innocent and easy, as if it were no big deal to include Mary as a mediator. Well, we both know Mary is not the only one they pray to. Your skills at minimalizing vastly important issues that have ramifications far beyond what you attribute to them in relation to the Bible only shows that YOU obviously don't read your Bible well.
Seriously? Why is it that YOU don't accept what the Bible says? Please show me where Paul encouraged ANYONE to pray to Mary or any of the other dead people (yes, they are dead...to this world, obviously) who the RCC subjectively "sainted." Where does the word of God encourage us to ask those who are gone from this world to intercede or do anything on our behalf.
Beyond that, please explain to us how it does not attribute to Mary and the others the powers and nature of God for them to hear every person on this earth who prays to them (omnipresence and omniscience). How do you know they have those abilities? Do you believe that because the RCC teaches it? Pretending that this is all harmless and of no consequence only betrays your lack in any desire to allow scripture to speak for itself in an authoritative foundation for truth.
And He THEN asked her: John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
She clearly was out of line, and He explained why, although he honored her and the wedding party with the best wine they had ever drank. You can speculate all you want about the reasons why He went ahead and honored the request and the wishes of the other people there, but to try and transplant that off into eternity the idea that RCC people's prayers are heard and expressed by her in like manner to Jesus is nothing more than human ingenuity for invention of doctrine.
No, the question is WHY? That's of pagan origin, the concept and designation "queen of heaven." Why paganize Mary with a title originating and couched in that type of positional accolade? Why would you or anyone else do that to her?
Again, why? She was not sinless, and was therefore in need of a Savior just like all the rest of us. Why believe what is contrary to the written word of God?
MM
The Church of Rome and Baptists such as myself still disagree on the Reformation, in regards to Pauline Justification!You are absolutly correct my brother.
Our moderators will not allow it (IF they do let me know) but if they did I can post at least 30 RCC teachings that are not in any way Biblical neither are they Christian in their origin. I have no idea how that kind of seperation can foster any unity at all.
One you just posted which was.............."Mary is NOT sinless" which is the RCC teaching of the "Immaculate Conception".
The Church of Rome and Baptists such as myself still disagree on the Reformation, in regards to Pauline Justification!
The Church of Rome and Baptists such as myself still disagree on the Reformation, in regards to Pauline Justification!
Yes, but that would be the one thing that we must agree upon to be saved!I am sure that there is more than just that that you do not agree with the RCC on.
Yes, but that would be the one thing that we must agree upon to be saved!