VIRGIN BIRTH

The very fact that it’s mentioned both in prophecy and in historical happening, makes it an integral part to our salvation. So even though it isn’t spelled out as a requirement to know, it is part of God’s Divine plan…i.e. ‘the plan of salvation’.
 
With the birthday of Jesus (As set by the RCC) comes closer, why do you think that it is important to believe that He, Jesus, the Son of God be born of a virgin. Do you think that the virgin birth of Christ an essential to salvation?

Hello Major;

I'm scratching my head. We have seasoned disciples posting here and from what I'm reading I feel some of us have our "stars crossed."

When I received Jesus Christ in 1966 I have no doubt my parents taught me to believe that Christ alone embraces me with my salvation.

To paraphrase Don Moen;

I believe in God the Father. I believe in Christ the Son. I believe in the Holy Spirit. We are the Church and we stand as one. I believe in the Holy Bible. I believe in the resurrection that Christ one day will return to earth.

My personal testimony is I believe Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. I believe in the Virgin Birth as part of God's divine plan but I don't believe this is the bridge and the gateway to our Father.

Though we believe Christ was born of the virgin birth, I don't believe this is an essential to salvation. This means we are not to give homage, kneel and worship the virgin Mary.

What is essential to our salvation is the homage we give to our Father through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6, 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Aside from our discipleship gaining the gospel knowledge of Jesus Christ, there is no alternative gateway of our genuine worship of God.

As Jesus teaches us in John 4:24, 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

To stay in consistent order and indwelled by the One, Jesus says in John 17:17, 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Major
, I feel this answers your question without overlooking the KEY of the RCC that you mentioned, which I encourage all of us not to go into.
 
Hello Major;

I'm scratching my head. We have seasoned disciples posting here and from what I'm reading I feel some of us have our "stars crossed."

When I received Jesus Christ in 1966 I have no doubt my parents taught me to believe that Christ alone embraces me with my salvation.

To paraphrase Don Moen;

I believe in God the Father. I believe in Christ the Son. I believe in the Holy Spirit. We are the Church and we stand as one. I believe in the Holy Bible. I believe in the resurrection that Christ one day will return to earth.

My personal testimony is I believe Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. I believe in the Virgin Birth as part of God's divine plan but I don't believe this is the bridge and the gateway to our Father.

Though we believe Christ was born of the virgin birth, I don't believe this is an essential to salvation. This means we are not to give homage, kneel and worship the virgin Mary.

What is essential to our salvation is the homage we give to our Father through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6, 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Aside from our discipleship gaining the gospel knowledge of Jesus Christ, there is no alternative gateway of our genuine worship of God.

As Jesus teaches us in John 4:24, 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

To stay in consistent order and indwelled by the One, Jesus says in John 17:17, 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Major
, I feel this answers your question without overlooking the KEY of the RCC that you mentioned, which I encourage all of us not to go into.
Agreed.
 
Jesus is the New Creation (2 Cor 5, Gal 6). He could not be born the ordinary way into this world.

The Isaiah 6-9 prophecy has horizons too far for the immediate situation there of captivity. A young wife suits the older context but not the one of Jesus' birth. The Law would have called for a couple who violated vows to be stoned, so Joseph was very kind to try to end it silently. But then he had to look after her through the birth window. In the beautiful BBC retelling (2008), there are other relatives in Bethlehem who will not welcome Mary even though she was due; they would take Joseph but not her.
 
Jesus is the New Creation (2 Cor 5, Gal 6). He could not be born the ordinary way into this world.

The Isaiah 6-9 prophecy has horizons too far for the immediate situation there of captivity. A young wife suits the older context but not the one of Jesus' birth. The Law would have called for a couple who violated vows to be stoned, so Joseph was very kind to try to end it silently. But then he had to look after her through the birth window. In the beautiful BBC retelling (2008), there are other relatives in Bethlehem who will not welcome Mary even though she was due; they would take Joseph but not her.

I think that over the years, Christianity has done a disservice to Joseph.

He was a great man and did a great thing and most of all he was obedient!

We had made a lot more of Mary than we should have and a lot less of Joseph than he deserved.
 
I think that over the years, Christianity has done a disservice to Joseph.

He was a great man and did a great thing and most of all he was obedient!

We had made a lot more of Mary than we should have and a lot less of Joseph than he deserved.

You sure would esteem him higher after this portrayl--the BBC
 
I think that over the years, Christianity has done a disservice to Joseph.

He was a great man and did a great thing and most of all he was obedient!

We had made a lot more of Mary than we should have and a lot less of Joseph than he deserved.
On top of that some write him off as having children from a previous marriage just to exalt Marys' so called 'perpetual virginity'.
 
There will be no entrance exam to heaven.

There are a lot of individual truths ( at least from our view ), but knowing them and accepting them is not what makes them either true makes them apply os a believer.

We are told that it is God's Grace that saves us, and that it is our faith in Him that ties us to that grace.

You may list a lot of things that you may hold to be necessary and roll it all up into what you hold is meant by faith, but that does not make it so.

Those truths may well be true, and their truth may indeed be part of God's providing salvation, but that does not mean that we need to fully understand.

One that has accepted Christ may even disbelieve in the virgin birth, but still believe that Christ' s death on the cross was payment for ones personal sins and still be saved. The truth of how the word became flesh can be misunderstood and still believe that Christ paid for one's sin.

To give a car analogy, one does not need to understand or even know about engines to get around town in one's car.
 
There will be no entrance exam to heaven.

There are a lot of individual truths ( at least from our view ), but knowing them and accepting them is not what makes them either true makes them apply os a believer.

We are told that it is God's Grace that saves us, and that it is our faith in Him that ties us to that grace.

You may list a lot of things that you may hold to be necessary and roll it all up into what you hold is meant by faith, but that does not make it so.

Those truths may well be true, and their truth may indeed be part of God's providing salvation, but that does not mean that we need to fully understand.

One that has accepted Christ may even disbelieve in the virgin birth, but still believe that Christ' s death on the cross was payment for ones personal sins and still be saved. The truth of how the word became flesh can be misunderstood and still believe that Christ paid for one's sin.

To give a car analogy, one does not need to understand or even know about engines to get around town in one's car.

You just need to know it is not a boat.
 
To give a car analogy, one does not need to understand or even know about engines to get around town in one's car.
They just won't get far without knowing how to fill it with fuel, check the oil level and tire pressure.
Without confirming the Virgin Birth, one will be wishy-washy about the Deity and sinlessness of Jesus.
 
On top of that some write him off as having children from a previous marriage just to exalt Marys' so called 'perpetual virginity'.

Correct! Efforts to prove that Mary remained a "perpetual virgin" are not based on Scripture but on a misguided allegiance to a woman who was as fallible as any other human being when we read Rom. 3:23 among many other Scriptures.

The RCC teaches that when the Bible says in Matthew 12:46 .......
"While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?"

They say that those SONS are "Cousins".
 
From the ground floor:
Many have salvation that have never heard about Jesus Christ (those in the 'boonies' - Old Testament Saints). But to come to maturation we need an understanding (dispensationalism). To know Jesus Christ isn't based on an intellectual experience. A person must be born again, for it is not he that willeth... As far as the virgin birth is concerned, that was the original plan. God is the spoken Word - 'and it is'. That is how everything came into being - the perfect way. In the garden Satan injected a perversion and so now we live in the realm of good and evil. On the other side there is no thing such as lust etc. As far a accepting the virgin birth, it is a part of the maturing process.
 
From the ground floor:
Many have salvation that have never heard about Jesus Christ (those in the 'boonies' - Old Testament Saints). But to come to maturation we need an understanding (dispensationalism). To know Jesus Christ isn't based on an intellectual experience. A person must be born again, for it is not he that willeth... As far as the virgin birth is concerned, that was the original plan. God is the spoken Word - 'and it is'. That is how everything came into being - the perfect way. In the garden Satan injected a perversion and so now we live in the realm of good and evil. On the other side there is no thing such as lust etc. As far a accepting the virgin birth, it is a part of the maturing process.
Romans 4:3 (ESV)
"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

The Old Testament saints were aware of the promised Redeemer, and they were saved by faith in that Savior, the same way people are saved today. CREDIT!

They looked "forward" to the redeemer and we look "backwards" to that redeemer. Both are based on FAITH.
 
True. They looked forward to - and it was accounted unto Abraham because he believed God 'condition of Abraham'. So Abraham was a believer but God's salvation was not yet made manifest so in the process of time we can now not only look unto but receive. Does it not say that 'they without us are not yet made perfect'? So it is a process, one is not without the other. We are living in an age where we can walk into perfection, not that we are perfect but salvation plan has been fully unveiled for us to receive. There are no more mysteries, God has fully made known His plan of salvation, who we where before the foundation of the world. We just need to receive it by revelation.
A long way off the topic but it all works together.
God bless
 
True. They looked forward to - and it was accounted unto Abraham because he believed God 'condition of Abraham'. So Abraham was a believer but God's salvation was not yet made manifest so in the process of time we can now not only look unto but receive. Does it not say that 'they without us are not yet made perfect'? So it is a process, one is not without the other. We are living in an age where we can walk into perfection, not that we are perfect but salvation plan has been fully unveiled for us to receive. There are no more mysteries, God has fully made known His plan of salvation, who we where before the foundation of the world. We just need to receive it by revelation.
A long way off the topic but it all works together.
God bless


We do, however, that 'Abraham saw Christ's day, and rejoiced' and the line 'it was credited to him as righteousness' is every bit as NT as it can be.

I know the term 'dispensation' (management) is in the NT, but I have hardly ever seen support for what the school of dispensationalism says it is. Please show! The idea of two different programs is certainly not supportable in the NT.

When Ephesians and Galatians are taken together about the fulness of time, it simply means that Judaism was a child-training period until Christ came.
 
Dispensation:
As in church ages.
The seed goes into the ground (dark aged) and when it is coming up (reformation - Luther) and it is maturing - sanctification (eg Wesley) restoration of the gifts (Penticost) and if you hold to the 'Rapture' doctrine - brought to place where she is translation ready.

It is sometimes thought that the Rapture occurs with the sprinkling of 'fairy dust' but that is not scriptural for spiritual progress is always a process - as in church history.
 
Dispensation:
As in church ages.
The seed goes into the ground (dark aged) and when it is coming up (reformation - Luther) and it is maturing - sanctification (eg Wesley) restoration of the gifts (Penticost) and if you hold to the 'Rapture' doctrine - brought to place where she is translation ready.

It is sometimes thought that the Rapture occurs with the sprinkling of 'fairy dust' but that is not scriptural for spiritual progress is always a process - as in church history.


Most of theology about dispensations is not about the stages of the church but about Biblical history: how much law did people have before the flood? From the flood to the Torah? etc.

But this is not quite the question of Eph 1, 3, and Gal 3, 4, and most of Hebrews. The 'fulness' of time is that what is revealed in Christ is final. Gal 3 shows us that the Torah was a child-trainer, a governess, but now we are 'adult' in Christ, and we don't need the child-trainer aspect--concerned with externals and foods and ceremony.

There is so little that is solid about the Rapture that I don't know the point of dealing with it. Too much is conjecture from silence, called "fitting it in." True apostle's doctrine is the solid chunks of doctrine.
 
True. They looked forward to - and it was accounted unto Abraham because he believed God 'condition of Abraham'. So Abraham was a believer but God's salvation was not yet made manifest so in the process of time we can now not only look unto but receive. Does it not say that 'they without us are not yet made perfect'? So it is a process, one is not without the other. We are living in an age where we can walk into perfection, not that we are perfect but salvation plan has been fully unveiled for us to receive. There are no more mysteries, God has fully made known His plan of salvation, who we where before the foundation of the world. We just need to receive it by revelation.
A long way off the topic but it all works together.
God bless

Agreed.
 
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