FYI.....your avatar pictures a female angel with wings. The Bible never lists a female angel or an angel with wings.
Were There Humans In Heaven Before Jesus Ascended.
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FYI.....your avatar pictures a female angel with wings. The Bible never lists a female angel or an angel with wings.
It is just that some topics are very, very, very argumentative and have the ability to be explosive and soul sleep is one of them.
Experience has proven that some things are better left alone.
I think it does mean exactly that. They were in heaven and IMHO it was their spirits which God made to look like they actually were.
No, humans were not in heaven before Jesus and humans are not in heaven yet even now, just like how the devil is not in hell yet and people are not in hell yet. None of that happens till judgement day and the end of time.
There may exist a paradise somewhere not in heaven, where people go temporarily, like a stop over.
There may exist a paradise somewhere not in heaven, where people go temporarily, like a stop over.
Exactly!
I have to disagree. Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God and He ascended to heaven and is there now.
The physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus is foundational to Christian doctrine and our hope of heaven. Because Jesus rose from the dead with a physical body, every Christian has the guarantee of his own bodily resurrection (John 5:21, 28-Romans 8:23). Now Jesus is in heaven, where He is pictured as sitting in a place of authority, at the right hand of God (1 Peter 3:22).
You said...........
"there may exist a paradise somewhere not in heaven, where people go temporarily, like a stop over."
That would be Purgatory. There is no mention of Purgatory in the Bible.
There is the fact of a "PARADISE" in Luke 16. However, the Bible tells us that when Jesus ascemded, He took all the souls in Paradise with Him to heaven and now there are no souls in that place.
Psalm 68:18 -
" When you ascended on high, you took many captiv... LORD God, might dwell there. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them."
"Paradise" was relocated from Hades to Heaven.
Revelation 2:7 says:
"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.”
To confirm that, in 2 Corth. 12:4 Paul calls the present Heaven he was taken up to Paradise.
Ephesians 4:8........
"He ascended into the heaven of heavens on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men."
The spirits of the lost are in Hades/Sheol -= Hell.
There bodies will be resurrected at the 2nd Resurrection and then judged with the results being that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
When the lost rich man died in Luke 16:22 we read that...........
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Abraham bosom = Paradise)
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
I agree no one is yet in heaven nor hell.
Since we are limited in that area of discussion we can only go by what Revelation tells us about the judgement of the dead.
Since that has not yet occurred no one has yet been judged.
Paradise in Revelation 2 would appear to be synonymous with heaven.
Maybe we can see Jesus promise to the thief as a language matter, not a theology issue.
''Today I tell you.... ''
On that very day Jesus was telling him he would be with Jesus in paradise. Not that on that very day would the thief be with him in paradise. Rather, it was a promise to the thief that his faith would gain him heaven, paradise. An assurance given him on that very day by Jesus himself.
It took days for those crucified to die. However, on that day the thief died assured he would be with Jesus in time.
Purgatory could never be paradise by its very nature.
Now.....if as you say..........."I agree no one is yet in heaven nor hell".......I agree.
But - Where then are the spirits of the dead today?
My original point was that there are NO HUMANS in heaven before Jesus and today, except the God-Man, Jesus Christ.
IF the spirits of the lost are not in Hell...............then where?
If the spirits of the saved are not in heaven.....then where?
Now as for Luke 23:43 and the meaning of "TODAY"...........
"Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise".
I must disagree with you. The promise from Jesus was clearly that "TODAY" you will be with ME in Paradise.
On the day that Jesus and the thief was on the cross, Jesus said on THAT DAY you will be with me in paradise.
There is no Bible information that says the thief did not die on THAT same day Jesus died.
Good discussion and I agree on Purgatory. There is NO Bible record of such an event or place.
No humans but why this?…
Job 1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
Because the "Sons of God" in that Scripture are ANGELS!
The holy angels are called sons of God, here, and in Job 38:7 and Daniel 3:25 & Dan. 3:28.
Thanks for the question!
What I meant was yes, perhaps no humans in heaven, but we see satan himself coming before the Lord.
Unregenerate man has no audience before the Lord, but satan did even before Christ’s blood was shed.
(I guess he hasn't any access now.)
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I could answer but as you know rules will not permit.
The bible tells us where they are.
Satan was a spiritual being, an Angel. He had access.
I believe that he still does have access!
Tev. 2 tells us that there will be a war in heaven in the future and that war results in Satan being expelled from Heaven and driven to Earth (Rev. 12:7-9) where he indwells the anti-Christ (Rev. 13:2).
The rules do not allow us to discuss "Soul Sleep". So I am assuming that your answer is just that.
OK!
Oh that's a good way of looking at it. Good point.
That's also why the sons of God in Genesis means fallen angels too.
That's also why the sons of God in Genesis means fallen angels too.
I appreciate your thoughts and responses. However.....the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 can not be fallen angels for many reasons.
#1.
When God was asked what life would be like in heaven for those who were there, God said in Matthew 22:30......
"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."
Mark 12:25..........
" When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven. "
That tells us that when we get to heaven our bodies will be spiritual, and like spirits; they will not stand in any need of sustenance, by eating and drinking, any more than the angels; nor will there be any such things as marriage, and SEX procreation of children among them, any more than among angels. That clearly tells us that the Angels that God created are ASEXUAL.
#2.
Because the angels are ASEXUAL they do not have the sexual equipment to reproduce! It is actually that simple.
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It's supposed to be that simple.
That's part of what makes what they did so evil. They went against how they were made and broke the rules of nature. They found a way around it sort of like how people born one gender can get their gender changed to what they want to be. Or how people can go against nature and be attracted to the same gender. If we humans with limited knowledge can find ways to go against how we were made, and can find ways like IVF to reproduce, how much more can fallen angels who are smarter and older than humans find ways to go against the way they were made to mate with humans. I also believe that's where the spirit of gender confusion and same sex attraction comes from. That same rebellious spirit that was behind what the fallen angels did to go against how they were made. They were not made to reproduce, and were made without sexual desires, but they went against their nature to be something else. They were angels but wanted to identify as humans and have sex like humans. It's that same spirit behind it all. Humans are doing the same thing with the gender confusion and trans stuff.
I believe jealousy of humankind was behind their fall and why they mated with humans, thereby destroying the blood line.It's supposed to be that simple.