Were There Humans In Heaven Before Jesus Ascended.

Major said:
I guess we all can banter this idea back and forth till Jesus comes and then we can ask Him.

I too understand "Biblegateway" and as I stated......the teaching of Genesis 6 as being fallen angels was the predominate teaching from the 1st church, the Jewish Talmund and many other productions. It is the oldest teaching available. However......there have been many other idea put forward and it is only logical to investigate every option and elimnate that which does not conform to the totality of Scripture. OMHO.

Until then, Allow me to ask some very simple, common sense questions:

#1.
Hebrews 1:7 tells us that Angels are spirit beings not fleshly creatures.
So my question is..........How can a SPIRIT being without flesh have sex and produce a FLESH being with DNA?

#2.
God said in His Word that angels neither marry nor sexually reproduce in Luke 20:34-36.
Question is..........Since that is what God said, wouldn't the opinion of Angels producing HUMANS violate God's principle made clear in Genesis 1 that each living kind reproduces only “according to its kind.” ????

#3.
The risen Jesus, God, explained that fallen angels/demons, are not able to manifest themselves materially like He and the righteous angels can and that is seen in Luke 24:39 when we compare 24:40-43; Genesis 18:1-8, Genesis 18:16 and Genesis 19:1.
When see actually demons in Scripture they are only possessing individuals or appearing as ghostly apparitions. Note this Bible fact....
Demons cannot take on flesh -- there is nowhere in the Bible that says that they can.
Question............Since that is what we see in the Bible, how do you then explain fallen angels/demons being able to have physical sex?

#4.
Does it concern you at all, that if the thesis of Genesis 6 is that DEMON had sex with human women and produced children is true then
that act contaminated all of humanity's blood.

Now........everyone is free to disagree with me. I AM NOT AN EXPERT! What I would ask all of you who are arueing for the Sons of God in Genesis 6 to be DEMONS/FALLEN ANGELS to remember this..................A key of biblical interpretation is to allow the Scripture to interpret itself. People fall into error when they try to make the Bible say something to fit their particular doctrinal position when the text does not say it. In this case, the text simply says 'sons of God', which is a designation for humans. There is nowhere in the Bible where demons are called 'sons', and especially not 'sons of God.'

Also......In Gen. 6:3, God says...........
"My Spirit will not remain with 'mankind' forever, because they were corrupt." It says "mankind" -- not a mix of man and demon.

In verse 4 it says the Nephilim were "...powerful men..." Again, not powerful demon-men.

And in verse 7........
"...the Lord said, 'I will wipe off the face of the earth: man, whom I created...'"
Here we see an explicit reference to who and what God intended to bring judgement to -- man.
God says nothing about demons or fallen angels here. That which God created, man, would be destroyed -- with the exception of righteous Noah.
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Well, for my part I'd say you'll have to wait and ask God.

I don't subscribe to the idea the Bible is to be trusted as the word of God until there is something in it that does not comport with what I'd prefer to believe.

Job 1:6,Job 2:1, also refer to the sons of God.

Genesis 6 doesn't refer to the sons of Seth. It doesn't identify the sons of Satan. It identified the sons of God.
 
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Damascus said:
Well, for my part I'd say you'll have to wait and ask God.

I don't subscribe to the idea the Bible is to be trusted as the word of God until there is something in it that does not comport with what I'd prefer to believe.

Job 1:6,Job 2:1, also refer to the sons of God.

Genesis 6 doesn't refer to the sons of Seth. It doesn't identify the sons of Satan. It identified the sons of God.
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We disagree and I think we need to leave there. We are at the point where it is....He said, He said, He said.

You are however Correct about Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 are all about ANGELS.
This is what started this discussion my brother. There were NO HUMANS to come before God IN heaven in the book of Job. All those Scriptures pre-date Creation.

Job 38: 6-7.........
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

But in the same manner..........Genesis 6 does NOT say "ANGELS". Read chapter 6 and we all can see "When MEN began to multiply".
"My Spirit will not always strive with MAN".

You said...........
"I don't subscribe to the idea the Bible is to be trusted as the word of God until there is something in it that does not comport with what I'd prefer to believe."

I think that we have just discovered the root of our differances on this topic. My dear friend, there are many things in the Bible I do not like. There are somethings I hate! But you see, God told me to read it and believe it, so I do. We are not told anywhere in the Word of God to have preferences as what we are to believe.

I am different in that I DO subscribe to the Bible and what it says. You see.........The Lord Jesus Christ, GOD wrote the Bible and He knows a lot more than me. So I am going to go with His teachings.




Read full chapter
 
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Major said:
Now to The following question you posed naturally ensues: do angels need to eat food like humans?
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Of course they do not need to eat, and yes it was about common courtesy of the day. The point we were making was that they could eat as we do because they had a body that functioned as our bodies do, complete with feet that got dirty, mouths to chew and therefore, stomachs and the rest of the body parts because they called them "men". The men of Sodom even wanted them because the angels were men, or technically transformed into men, but men in the physical sense that we understand. These same angels had the power to strike people with blindness, causing physical changes in another person's body. Why would you think, then, that they would not be able to cause a pregnancy?
 
Big Moose said:
And don't forget the scripture most church goers know:
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

We don't even know if angels have been among us for they can function just as any human. God gave angels certain powers, or why else would Lucifer believe he could take on God? These powers obviously include transforming into a human body. This is what is meant in Jude:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

They left their first estate, angelic estate, for the human form. And like the people of Sodom and Gomorrha, these angels went after strange flesh, human flesh, the daughters of men in Genesis 6, and are set forth for an example to the other angels to never do this again.

As you see, scriptures support this.
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Amen! Exactly right!
 
Big Moose said:
And before Major quotes Matthew erroneously, Matthew 22: states:
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This comes from a question posed to Jesus, and Jesus answers them with this verse. This means what it says. People will not be married or be given in marriage in heaven. Just as the angels are not married or given in marriage. This has nothing to do with sex or sexual function or being asexual in body parts. The question posed to Jesus was about who was married, not who would have sexual relations.
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Yes and not having sex and not being married doesn't mean unable to, it just means they didn't. When we get our new bodies in heaven, we will still have the same parts we have now, but we just won't have sex in heaven. So you're right. Not doing, is not the same as not being able to.
Also, since angels can and did eat, that means they had some kind of working digestive system even though they didn't need to eat. Just like how with our new bodies we won't need to eat but we will be able to eat. And since angels have some kind of working digestive system, other body parts must have worked too. Or they were able to genetically modify them to make them work. Angel's bodies are not the same as ours, but it was similar enough for them to eat our food. 👍
 
Major said:
I guess we all can banter this idea back and forth till Jesus comes and then we can ask Him.

I too understand "Biblegateway" and as I stated......the teaching of Genesis 6 as being fallen angels was the predominate teaching from the 1st church, the Jewish Talmund and many other productions. It is the oldest teaching available. However......there have been many other idea put forward and it is only logical to investigate every option and elimnate that which does not conform to the totality of Scripture. OMHO.

Until then, Allow me to ask some very simple, common sense questions:

#1.
Hebrews 1:7 tells us that Angels are spirit beings not fleshly creatures.
So my question is..........How can a SPIRIT being without flesh have sex and produce a FLESH being with DNA?

#2.
God said in His Word that angels neither marry nor sexually reproduce in Luke 20:34-36.
Question is..........Since that is what God said, wouldn't the opinion of Angels producing HUMANS violate God's principle made clear in Genesis 1 that each living kind reproduces only “according to its kind.” ????

#3.
The risen Jesus, God, explained that fallen angels/demons, are not able to manifest themselves materially like He and the righteous angels can and that is seen in Luke 24:39 when we compare 24:40-43; Genesis 18:1-8, Genesis 18:16 and Genesis 19:1.
When see actually demons in Scripture they are only possessing individuals or appearing as ghostly apparitions. Note this Bible fact....
Demons cannot take on flesh -- there is nowhere in the Bible that says that they can.
Question............Since that is what we see in the Bible, how do you then explain fallen angels/demons being able to have physical sex?

#4.
Does it concern you at all, that if the thesis of Genesis 6 is that DEMON had sex with human women and produced children is true then
that act contaminated all of humanity's blood.

Now........everyone is free to disagree with me. I AM NOT AN EXPERT! What I would ask all of you who are arueing for the Sons of God in Genesis 6 to be DEMONS/FALLEN ANGELS to remember this..................A key of biblical interpretation is to allow the Scripture to interpret itself. People fall into error when they try to make the Bible say something to fit their particular doctrinal position when the text does not say it. In this case, the text simply says 'sons of God', which is a designation for humans. There is nowhere in the Bible where demons are called 'sons', and especially not 'sons of God.'

Also......In Gen. 6:3, God says...........
"My Spirit will not remain with 'mankind' forever, because they were corrupt." It says "mankind" -- not a mix of man and demon.

In verse 4 it says the Nephilim were "...powerful men..." Again, not powerful demon-men.

And in verse 7........
"...the Lord said, 'I will wipe off the face of the earth: man, whom I created...'"
Here we see an explicit reference to who and what God intended to bring judgement to -- man.
God says nothing about demons or fallen angels here. That which God created, man, would be destroyed -- with the exception of righteous Noah.
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1-Angels are spirits, but they are able to have some kind of flesh, enough to pass for human and even eat human food. We are also spiritual beings with a human body. Angels are spiritual beings who can put on a flesh-like body.

2- Yes it violates God's law, which is why it was such a sin.

3- That's because demons are not the same as fallen angels. Demons are half breeds who do not possess the ability to put on flesh like angels can. Remember, the antichrist will be the devil/fallen angel lucifer in the flesh, in a body.

4- Yes their mating with human women did contaminate human blood, all except Noah and his family who God said was pure blood line. That's why God destroyed everyone except them. That's was the devil's purpose, to contaminate human blood to keep Jesus from being born. That's why the whole of humanity had to be destroyed.

And technically the Nephilim were men, half men. They were part human.

Doesn't it make more sense that God would destroy the whole world because of seed corruption when you take into account that the world is more sinful today than it was back then, we just don't have Nephilim running around among us like they did back then. The Nephilim was the reason, not just mankind's sin.
 
Big Moose said:
Of course they do not need to eat, and yes it was about common courtesy of the day. The point we were making was that they could eat as we do because they had a body that functioned as our bodies do, complete with feet that got dirty, mouths to chew and therefore, stomachs and the rest of the body parts because they called them "men". The men of Sodom even wanted them because the angels were men, or technically transformed into men, but men in the physical sense that we understand. These same angels had the power to strike people with blindness, causing physical changes in another person's body. Why would you think, then, that they would not be able to cause a pregnancy?
Click to expand...

Exactly! We don't know what powers the angels have. We can't just assume the angels can't do something when even us humans have found ways around our natural way to do what we want. Angels have powers we don't have and powers we can't understand. They are not gods, but they can do more than we can. We don't know what they can't do. We only know what God doesn't want them to do.
 
VictorianLady said:
1-Angels are spirits, but they are able to have some kind of flesh, enough to pass for human and even eat human food. We are also spiritual beings with a human body. Angels are spiritual beings who can put on a flesh-like body.

2- Yes it violates God's law, which is why it was such a sin.

3- That's because demons are not the same as fallen angels. Demons are half breeds who do not possess the ability to put on flesh like angels can. Remember, the antichrist will be the devil/fallen angel lucifer in the flesh, in a body.

4- Yes their mating with human women did contaminate human blood, all except Noah and his family who God said was pure blood line. That's why God destroyed everyone except them. That's was the devil's purpose, to contaminate human blood to keep Jesus from being born. That's why the whole of humanity had to be destroyed.

And technically the Nephilim were men, half men. They were part human.

Doesn't it make more sense that God would destroy the whole world because of seed corruption when you take into account that the world is more sinful today than it was back then, we just don't have Nephilim running around among us like they did back then. The Nephilim was the reason, not just mankind's sin.
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The Bible says that Demons are fallen angels, and are also known in the Bible as evil spirits or unclean/impure spirits.

There can not be any mating between demons and humans and as YOU yourself just said,,,,,,that would violate the Law of God from which comes like kind from like kind. You can not have it both ways.

But the Bible does not say that God destroyed humanity because of "seed" corruption! That is an assumption!

Genesis 6:5.........
"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

No matter how it is spun, the fact is that angelic beings don't have the DNA to combine with humans. There is NOT ONE single Scripture that says an a fallen angel/demon had sex with a woman. The fact is that they are spiritual beings; therefore, it's not possible that they can produce offspring.
 
VictorianLady said:
Yes and not having sex and not being married doesn't mean unable to, it just means they didn't. When we get our new bodies in heaven, we will still have the same parts we have now, but we just won't have sex in heaven. So you're right. Not doing, is not the same as not being able to.
Also, since angels can and did eat, that means they had some kind of working digestive system even though they didn't need to eat. Just like how with our new bodies we won't need to eat but we will be able to eat. And since angels have some kind of working digestive system, other body parts must have worked too. Or they were able to genetically modify them to make them work. Angel's bodies are not the same as ours, but it was similar enough for them to eat our food. 👍
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That is called......"RATIONALIZATION".

It is the process of makeing something we WANT out of something that does not exist.
 
Major said:
That is called......"RATIONALIZATION".

It is the process of makeing something we WANT out of something that does not exist.
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And in my opinion that is what you've been doing so to [ush forward your pov to be accepted as the only one.
Jesus was called Son of God. He was begotten upon Mary by God's Holy Spirit.

The Sons of God bred with human women.
It really doesn't matter if you accept that. It's recorded in the Bible.

I think when you stop excising what doesn't agree with your ideology you'll one day be able to say, you believe what scripture tells you.

Until then.
 
so if we once had jealous angel shapeshifters mating on our planet and causing havoc, is this all because we ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
If we hadn’t have eaten from the tree would it be safe to say they wouldn’t have attacked or mated with us? Or was all this prior to the eating of the fruit?

I admit it’s fascinating but I can’t help but wonder, even if it’s true, how would this kind of knowledge even set us all free from sin and get us to heaven?
 
Via dolarossa said:
so if we once had jealous angel shapeshifters mating on our planet and causing havoc, is this all because we ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
If we hadn’t have eaten from the tree would it be safe to say they wouldn’t have attacked or mated with us? Or was all this prior to the eating of the fruit?

I admit it’s fascinating but I can’t help but wonder, even if it’s true, how would this kind of knowledge even set us all free from sin and get us to heaven?
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I agree it is fascinating, but it doesn't play a part in setting us free from sin or salvation for that matter. It does give us insight on angels and demons, teaching us what to look out for when dealing with them.
We are not sure when Lucifer and his angels revolted against God and were cast out. In Job, Satan goes before God with the "sons of God" who were the angels. Jesus said he saw Satan being cast out of heaven like lightning. Revelation speaks of the war in heaven where Satan pulled 1/3 of the angels with him, and they were cast out. We just don't know when it happened.

Via dolarossa said:
If we hadn’t have eaten from the tree would it be safe to say they wouldn’t have attacked or mated with us? Or was all this prior to the eating of the fruit?
Click to expand...
That is a great question. Would Adam and Eve have even mated to have children if they hadn't eaten of the tree? Did that play a part in starting the human race? They didn't even know they were naked!

I think the book of Job shows us that Satan was not cast down yet, as he was still able to go before God. So the time of Job was before Noah and the mating with humans was leading up to the time of Noah. Could this be tied to the war in heaven and the casting out of Satan? That seems possible. Very interesting stuff indeed.
 
Damascus said:
And in my opinion that is what you've been doing so to [ush forward your pov to be accepted as the only one.
Jesus was called Son of God. He was begotten upon Mary by God's Holy Spirit.

The Sons of God bred with human women.
It really doesn't matter if you accept that. It's recorded in the Bible.

I think when you stop excising what doesn't agree with your ideology you'll one day be able to say, you believe what scripture tells you.

Until then.
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I do not agree with you my brother. I have made it a point to post Bible Scriptures so as to make sure everyone know that I am NOT giving MY POV.

Jesus was called "THE" Son of God because He was the Son of God. BEGOTTEN means "ONE AND ONLY".

Correct in that He was INCARNATED through Mary by the HS.

Now to say that it does not matter is I accept the record from the Bible. Do YOU actually believe that?????

To say that "The Sons of God bred with human women." and that is what the Bible says.......Is just not correct!

The Bible does not say anything about demons or fallen angels mating with women.
It is what YOU want the Bible to say because that is what you have been told and it sounds goo so you believe it---but in fact it does not say that at all.

Genesis 6:1-4.........
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Now please tell the world where in those Scriptures are the words...Fallen angels, demons, !
 
Big Moose said:
I agree it is fascinating, but it doesn't play a part in setting us free from sin or salvation for that matter. It does give us insight on angels and demons, teaching us what to look out for when dealing with them.
We are not sure when Lucifer and his angels revolted against God and were cast out. In Job, Satan goes before God with the "sons of God" who were the angels. Jesus said he saw Satan being cast out of heaven like lightning. Revelation speaks of the war in heaven where Satan pulled 1/3 of the angels with him, and they were cast out. We just don't know when it happened.


That is a great question. Would Adam and Eve have even mated to have children if they hadn't eaten of the tree? Did that play a part in starting the human race? They didn't even know they were naked!

I think the book of Job shows us that Satan was not cast down yet, as he was still able to go before God. So the time of Job was before Noah and the mating with humans was leading up to the time of Noah. Could this be tied to the war in heaven and the casting out of Satan? That seems possible. Very interesting stuff indeed.
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Satan has access to heaven today as he did in Job.

He will not be completly removed until Revelation when he is cast out and removed.
 
Via dolarossa said:
so if we once had jealous angel shapeshifters mating on our planet and causing havoc, is this all because we ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
If we hadn’t have eaten from the tree would it be safe to say they wouldn’t have attacked or mated with us? Or was all this prior to the eating of the fruit?

I admit it’s fascinating but I can’t help but wonder, even if it’s true, how would this kind of knowledge even set us all free from sin and get us to heaven?
Click to expand...

THEY did not mate with humans. Again.....there is NO Bible record of that happening!

Knowledge had nothing to do with it.

It was all about OBEDIENCE. God said "Do NOT EAT from the tree".
EVE did not do what God said = SIN and sin is imputed then to all of humanity and sin must be paid for ..........Hence the death of God to pay for YOUR sin!
 
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