What Isn't a Doctrine of Man?

[Musicmaster]

I am starting to get curious about what happened to me that day at the beach where suddenly everything got aligned in my spirit.
I've just been told in a disctussion that this cannot happen... it does NOT happen.... God's speaks through His Word only... and I'm good with that... however...
I know that something supernatural happened to me... because of the CHANGE in me. It was NOTHING I had done. Decades of depression fell off of me INSTANTLY.... I felt the intense LOVE of GOD over me in such a profound way that it took weeks for me to come down to earth. I was filled with over flowing JOY and given a child-like wonder of things. it was not something I asked for... or expected....and the beach was certainly NOT a new experience either because I live right next to it and had been to it many times before. So.... what was that??? I cannot say it was NOTHING because for these last three years... I have not tasted one drop of depression since that day. I am going on year 3 of absolute JOY... and I went DECADES with nothing... so what was that??? I believe GOD is personal... and I do believe His mercies are tender. I also believe HE came in person to visit me that day... although I heard nothing... saw nothing.... but I FELT EVERYTHING.

I absolutely agree with the fact that there are no prophets in this day and age.... I'm not sure what the role of an Apostle is?? I thought there were only 12 of them in Jesus' time so what on earth is a modern day Apostle?? HA.

Nobody on this earth is qualified to demand what God does or does not do apart from what is stated in His word to us. He cannot contradict Himself (violate the law of non-contradiction), He does not lie, He does not lead anyone to sin nor tempt anyone to sin, and He does not change (He is not fickle, such as changing His mind on perverse sins and such). What the Lord may have done in your heart and mind on that beach, that's between you and Him. He alone is your Lord. He makes revelation and instruction to those of His own choosing, and anyone who would say otherwise, apart from stating that it will never contradict the written word, is speaking from their own authority.

For proof of this, we have the very word of God:

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, yes. The Spirit of the Lord is indeed actively speaking into the lives of ALL who simply ask. To say otherwise is to contradict the scriptures. Relationship must involve some form of communication/interaction in the lives of those involved.

MM

 

[Major]

Nobody on this earth is qualified to demand what God does or does not do apart from what is stated in His word to us. He cannot contradict Himself (violate the law of non-contradiction), He does not lie, He does not lead anyone to sin nor tempt anyone to sin, and He does not change (He is not fickle, such as changing His mind on perverse sins and such). What the Lord may have done in your heart and mind on that beach, that's between you and Him. He alone is your Lord. He makes revelation and instruction to those of His own choosing, and anyone who would say otherwise, apart from stating that it will never contradict the written word, is speaking from their own authority.

For proof of this, we have the very word of God:

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, yes. The Spirit of the Lord is indeed actively speaking into the lives of ALL who simply ask. To say otherwise is to contradict the scriptures. Relationship must involve some form of communication/interaction in the lives of those involved.

MM

Are you saying that God is giving "progressive revelations"???

I am sure you know what a "model" is. A "model" takes the place of a law. Models are human perceptions of truth. They are tentative and thus subject to change as new data becomes available. These models we are seeing today in theology are open and constantly tested.

So then I ask, If the Bible is a closed system of truth, with no new revelation being given through inspired prophets or apostles, then the “model approach” is an erroneous and dangerous tool in hermeneutics. Would you agree to that?

Then, if God is still giving "progressive revelations" then the truth then is that there is no way to “protect the distinctiveness of the Bible” if God is inspiring new revelation today.

Rev. 22:18-19.......
"For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.”

Deut 4:1-2..........
" Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

Although the warning in Rev. 22 applies specifically to the Book of Revelation, its principle must be applied to the entire revealed Word of God. We must be careful to handle the Bible with care and reverence so as to not distort its message.

IF....IF there is today, progressive revelations from God, especially on prophecy, how do YOU explain those Scriptures which tell us that there can not be any changes or additions to the Word of God.

Thoughts???

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you saying that God is giving "progressive revelations"???

I am sure you know what a "model" is. A "model" takes the place of a law. Models are human perceptions of truth. They are tentative and thus subject to change as new data becomes available. These models we are seeing today in theology are open and constantly tested.

So then I ask, If the Bible is a closed system of truth, with no new revelation being given through inspired prophets or apostles, then the “model approach” is an erroneous and dangerous tool in hermeneutics. Would you agree to that?

Then, if God is still giving "progressive revelations" then the truth then is that there is no way to “protect the distinctiveness of the Bible” if God is inspiring new revelation today.

Rev. 22:18-19.......
"For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.”

Deut 4:1-2..........
" Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

Although the warning in Rev. 22 applies specifically to the Book of Revelation, its principle must be applied to the entire revealed Word of God. We must be careful to handle the Bible with care and reverence so as to not distort its message.

IF....IF there is today, progressive revelations from God, especially on prophecy, how do YOU explain those Scriptures which tell us that there can not be any changes or additions to the Word of God.

Thoughts???

No Not at all. What I was addressing had nothing to do with any new revelation that could ever be considered an addition to scripture. I stated that very emphatically prior to that post.

MM

 

[Major]

No Not at all. What I was addressing had nothing to do with any new revelation that could ever be considered an addition to scripture. I stated that very emphatically prior to that post.

MM

OK. I was thinking that was the case.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

What exactly is meant by adding to or taking from scripture?

An obvious meaning is adding to or abridging existing text within a given book. For example, removing entire sentences or adding new ones.

But what of adding or removing entire books? For example, the Bible used by Protestants has 66 books, but Catholics have 73, Eastern Orthodox have 79 and Ethiopians have 81. Who is to say which is correct? Do each posit that the other have added to or removed from scripture?

The issue seems complicated.

 

[Musicmaster]

What exactly is meant by adding to or taking from scripture?

An obvious meaning is adding to or abridging existing text within a given book. For example, removing entire sentences or adding new ones.

But what of adding or removing entire books? For example, the Bible used by Protestants has 66 books, but Catholics have 73, Eastern Orthodox have 79 and Ethiopians have 81. Who is to say which is correct? Do each posit that the other have added to or removed from scripture?

The issue seems complicated.

There are a number of reasons for the exclusions, mostly based upon the clear evidence for their lack of inspiration. For example, the Apocryphal books of the RCC were rejected because they contradict the Gospels, they contradict the Epistles and the Torah, and some even contradict each other, and some have statements that are purely pagan in natured and origin. The Maccabees are good for historical reasons, but are not at all inspired. The Messianic Jewish Bible, such as the Cepher, has all three or four of the Maccabees, which is fine, but the Cepher is not based upon canonized criteria for inspiration.

MM

 

[Major]

What exactly is meant by adding to or taking from scripture?

An obvious meaning is adding to or abridging existing text within a given book. For example, removing entire sentences or adding new ones.

But what of adding or removing entire books? For example, the Bible used by Protestants has 66 books, but Catholics have 73, Eastern Orthodox have 79 and Ethiopians have 81. Who is to say which is correct? Do each posit that the other have added to or removed from scripture?

The issue seems complicated.

It really isnt complicated when you do the investigative work. We are fortunate today that in the past many good people did that work for us.

In my opinion, the problem is not "takeing away", but the "adding to" the Word of God that is the problem.

An example of adding is The Roman Catholic Church includes in their canon of Scripture a number of books which are called "apocryphal books. " They’re books that were written during those 400 silent years between the Old and New Testaments.

None of them were written by the Apostles and none are inspired or are referred to as inspired. IF they are read one will discover very quickly that they are "Occultic" and the Protestant Christian church was correct to exclude them!

I’d distinguish that from what the Mormon church does. The Mormon church essentially says, “Well, we have another revelation of Jesus Christ—another gospel altogether.” It’s a false gospel. It is an addition to what the Apostles wrote.
And so I would distinguish it.

Matt. 15:2-3.....
“So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’”.

Essentially, the religious leaders were adding to the word of God. They were teaching as doctrine man-made traditions. That’s also one way that people add to God’s word today.

No religion I know of does that more that the Roman Catholic Church. They teach about 35 man made Triditions as doctrine which are not found anywhere in the Bible.

And they’re also taking away from the word of God. They’re invalidating the true word of God on the basis of their traditions. This is something we have to watch out for.

You may not write in the margins of your Bible or cut pages out of your Bible, but are you invalidating the word of God by your own religious traditions? Are you neglecting portions of Scripture? Are you saying, “God, I’m going follow you here, but I’m not going to follow you there. I don’t like that part of the Bible”?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

None of them were written by the Apostles and none are inspired or are referred to as inspired. IF they are read one will discover very quickly that they are "Occultic" and the Protestant Christian church was correct to exclude them!

I appreciate this point of view but I suspect someone who belonged to one of the other traditions would disagree and have their own valid reason why Protestants are wrong to exclude them.

 

[crossnote]

Then, if God is still giving "progressive revelations" then the truth then is that there is no way to “protect the distinctiveness of the Bible” if God is inspiring new revelation today.

Especially not, as long as there is what's called 'progressive interpretations'.

 

[Musicmaster]

I appreciate this point of view but I suspect someone who belonged to one of the other traditions would disagree and have their own valid reason why Protestants are wrong to exclude them.

That's the case in every cult and false religion. Nothing new with that. The difference is in the proof for authenticity, historicity, harmony, continuity, and many other factors that books like the Koran fail miserably.

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

That's the case in every cult and false religion. Nothing new with that.

Are you saying that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Christians are cult members?

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you saying that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Christians are cult members?

That depends on how you define the term "cult." In relation to how I understand the definition, yes. That can also be said of all who venerate and follow the teachings of the Bible:

CULT

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:

In this world, there are many, many cults. Most cults follow a deity of their own making, and even a Jesus of their own making...a Jesus totally unknown to the scriptures. So, there is one cult that is right, but only because it follows the One who said of Himself that He is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. All others are false and fake.

So, in answer to your question, yes.

For furtherance, any cult, belief system, or whatever we may wish to call them, that teaches a Jesus who is radically difference from the scriptures, such as a Jesus who is re-sacrificed each day, or who is worshipped through nature, etc., that is a Jesus utterly unknown to the scriptures. Those who teach that THEY are the appointed priesthood between man and Christ, never to be touched by a woman not their wives, etc., they are followers of a false christ...again,, utterly unknown to the scriptures, especially given that the followers of the TRUE Jesus are themselves priests unto the Most High God, with no other mediators between themselves and the true Christ Jesus.

There are many different "christian" groupings in Ethiopia and all around the world, following the various extraneous cults exported out of the West, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, et al, so there are many, many people out there who are called "Christians" who do not adhere to the purity of the word of God, which are the many "things" out there that are pointed at as the proof claim to a false legitimacy in Oprah's demands that there are many paths to Heaven, when in fact there is only One.

Jesus never said, "As long as thou followest something close to what I have taught thee, then thou art good," coupled with the wink and hippy thumbs-up...

Adding to the word of God the many, many trappings of religious beliefs and practices unknown to the scriptures, that is the height of illegitimacy, which describes the masses of cults out there that are deviations away from the teachings of Christ.

If you say, "Yeah, but they ALL believe that they are following the right Jesus," then you would be correct; disregarding those that have no desire to lay claim to similarity to Christ Jesus. As you know, if wishful thinking had the power to make things so, then this world would no longer exist, having been destroyed long ago because of the desperation in the wickedness of the human heart.

Does that help?

MM

 

[Major]

Especially not, as long as there is what's called 'progressive interpretations'.

Amen!

 

[Major]

I appreciate this point of view but I suspect someone who belonged to one of the other traditions would disagree and have their own valid reason why Protestants are wrong to exclude them.

The reason the Apocrypha was rejected hundreds of years ago was simply because it was not Biblical.

Then as well, none of them were in the original Hebrew canon received by the ancient Jews, the Scriptures that Jesus Himself quotes from extensively as carrying God’s authority.

Then, the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament as Scripture roughly three hundred times, but they never quote the Apocrypha in that way.

However, above and beyound those is the fact they They Teach A Person Is Saved By Works!
(For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life (Tobit 12:9).)
One of the tenants of the Catholic faith.

Then The Non-biblical Doctrine Of Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha.
( Second Maccabees 12:41-45). One of the basic tenants of the Catholoc faith.

According To The Apocrypha God Hears The Prayers Of The Dead.
(Baruch 3:4)
One of the tenants of the Catholic faith.

The Apocrypha Teaches The Pre-existence Of Souls.
(Wisdom 8:19-20).
That is one of the tenants of Mormonism.

It Teaches Creation Out Of Pre-Existent Matter.
(Wisdom 11:17).
That is one of the tenants of Masonry.

The Apocrypha identify seven arch angels in The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) and names two of them...........
1. Raphael
2. Phanuel

The Bible only gives of ONE arch angel and that is Michael. Many want to believe that Gaberial is an arch angel but he never said to be one in the Scriptures.

 

[Major]

That depends on how you define the term "cult." In relation to how I understand the definition, yes. That can also be said of all who venerate and follow the teachings of the Bible:

CULT

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:

In this world, there are many, many cults. Most cults follow a deity of their own making, and even a Jesus of their own making...a Jesus totally unknown to the scriptures. So, there is one cult that is right, but only because it follows the One who said of Himself that He is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. All others are false and fake.

So, in answer to your question, yes.

For furtherance, any cult, belief system, or whatever we may wish to call them, that teaches a Jesus who is radically difference from the scriptures, such as a Jesus who is re-sacrificed each day, or who is worshipped through nature, etc., that is a Jesus utterly unknown to the scriptures. Those who teach that THEY are the appointed priesthood between man and Christ, never to be touched by a woman not their wives, etc., they are followers of a false christ...again,, utterly unknown to the scriptures, especially given that the followers of the TRUE Jesus are themselves priests unto the Most High God, with no other mediators between themselves and the true Christ Jesus.

There are many different "christian" groupings in Ethiopia and all around the world, following the various extraneous cults exported out of the West, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, et al, so there are many, many people out there who are called "Christians" who do not adhere to the purity of the word of God, which are the many "things" out there that are pointed at as the proof claim to a false legitimacy in Oprah's demands that there are many paths to Heaven, when in fact there is only One.

Jesus never said, "As long as thou followest something close to what I have taught thee, then thou art good," coupled with the wink and hippy thumbs-up...

Adding to the word of God the many, many trappings of religious beliefs and practices unknown to the scriptures, that is the height of illegitimacy, which describes the masses of cults out there that are deviations away from the teachings of Christ.

If you say, "Yeah, but they ALL believe that they are following the right Jesus," then you would be correct; disregarding those that have no desire to lay claim to similarity to Christ Jesus. As you know, if wishful thinking had the power to make things so, then this world would no longer exist, having been destroyed long ago because of the desperation in the wickedness of the human heart.

Does that help?

MM

Agreed!

 

[In Awe of Him]

Major ... Can you point me in the right direction as to where I would find what is implied by "progressive interpretations"?
I don't expect anyone to do the studying for me.... HA. I am curious as to what this phrase is referring to in the form of examples.

 

[Major]

Are you saying that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Christians are cult members?

If MM or me or anyone else says YES, then we automatically make 100 million American enemies.

"Cult" may be extreme.

A better phrase would be......"They are not Biblical Christians".

Now a better question would be.......What would YOU call a group of people who follow the "traditions" of men over the Word of God???

Veneration (Worship) of Mary is totally outside of the Word of God.
The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a doctrine of man and is not found in the Word of God.
The sinlessness of Mary is a doctrine of man and is not found in the Word of God.
The total authority of one man (Pope)- Papel infallibility, is a doctrine of man and is not found in the Word of God.
Purgatory is the result of the doctrines of man and is not found in the Word of God.
Making the sign of the cross is a doctrine of man and is not found in the Word of God.
Indulgencies are man made sin and are not found in the Word of God.
Salvation by water baptism is man made theology and is not found in the Word of God.
Transubstaciation is a man made doctrine and is not found in the Word of God.

Now.....What would YOU call a group of people who follow the "traditions" of men over the Word of God???

 

[In Awe of Him]

Now a better question would be.......What would YOU call a group of people who follow the "traditions" of men over the Word of God???

A cult....

I say the above with seriousness because there is a promise of salvation IF one follows the traditions. I believe adding tradition = WORKS is a SERIOUS offence to CHRIST.

 

[Major]

Major ... Can you point me in the right direction as to where I would find what is implied by "progressive interpretations"?
I don't expect anyone to do the studying for me.... HA. I am curious as to what this phrase is referring to in the form of examples.

That would be a little difficult to do.

The doctrine of progressive revelation is wrong because it gives Church leaders an opportunity to change things in the Scriptures that are unfavorable(prohibition on eating pork/shellfish, keeping Torah, punishment for wrongdoing, etc ) and gives new meanings to them, and then cite that God gave us “progression revelation”......or, "God told ME"!

Then, many pastors will try to explain “you heard it said but I say..” and other passages and teachings of Jesus Christ by saying “Oh, he didn’t really mean it that way, he really meant this instead”.

An example would be........."Oral Roberts’ preposterous death-threat prophecy. In 1987 Roberts told his nationwide audience that God SPOKE TO HIM and had threatened to “kill him" if he couldn’t raise eight million dollars by his creditors’ deadline. Whether and how that threat might have been carried out, the world will never know; Roberts received a last-minute reprieve in the form of a large check from a Florida dog-track owner.

If we READ the Scriptures and understand them then we can realize that God gave 12 men, the Apostles the ability to write the New Test. He have prophets in the Old Test. His words to write His laws and history.

There are NO Apostles or prophets today so anytime you hear........"God told ME" or "Jesus really meant to say"......they are to be considered charlatans and liars!

Scripture is a closed system of truth, complete, sufficient, and not to be added to (Revelation 22:18–19). It contains all the spiritual truth God intended to reveal.

 

[Major]

A cult....

I say the above with seriousness because there is a promise of salvation IF one follows the traditions. I believe adding tradition = WORKS is a SERIOUS offence to CHRIST.

You said.........
"there is a promise of salvation IF one follows the traditions. "

Now that needs an explination.