What the Lord has been doing for 2000 + years.

Marilyn C

Marilyn C

I recently read some of the topic about the `Church floundering.` However this is man`s organisations, it is not the correct view of what the Lord has been doing over the centuries and across the world. Here is my understanding, and hope that it clears up the understanding of the Lord`s great work.

The Apostle Paul warned -

`For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch...` (Acts 20: 27 - 31)

Thus we see that for over 2000 years the Body of Christ has been battling against Satan and his demons, who have tried to stop the believers and the whole Body of Christ coming to maturity in Christ. The early believers were tested as to false teaching and this has continued to our day. However the Holy Spirit has continually moved upon people guiding the Body of Christ into all truth, just as the Lord said.

`However when He the Spirit of Truth has come, He will guide you into all truth.` (John 16: 13)

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.



Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)
Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)
Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)
Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)
Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)
Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)
Methodist - Holiness. (1738)
Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)
Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.


When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,


Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)
 
Marilyn C said:
I recently read some of the topic about the `Church floundering.` However this is man`s organisations, it is not the correct view of what the Lord has been doing over the centuries and across the world. Here is my understanding, and hope that it clears up the understanding of the Lord`s great work.

The Apostle Paul warned -

`For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch...` (Acts 20: 27 - 31)

Thus we see that for over 2000 years the Body of Christ has been battling against Satan and his demons, who have tried to stop the believers and the whole Body of Christ coming to maturity in Christ. The early believers were tested as to false teaching and this has continued to our day. However the Holy Spirit has continually moved upon people guiding the Body of Christ into all truth, just as the Lord said.

`However when He the Spirit of Truth has come, He will guide you into all truth.` (John 16: 13)

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.



Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)
Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)
Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)
Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)
Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)
Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)
Methodist - Holiness. (1738)
Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)
Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.


When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,


Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)
Click to expand...

Maryilyn, you stated several truths and I am in agreement.

However, instead of trying to read between the lines, allow me to ask you.....are you advocating that there should be or that there are Apostles and prophets today? Prophets in the classic sense of Old Test. Prophets who "foretold" future events that were to come, not the work of a prophet who spoke for God the correction and judgment against sin.
 
Major said:
Maryilyn, you stated several truths and I am in agreement.

However, instead of trying to read between the lines, allow me to ask you.....are you advocating that there should be or that there are Apostles and prophets today? Prophets in the classic sense of Old Test. Prophets who "foretold" future events that were to come, not the work of a prophet who spoke for God the correction and judgment against sin.
Click to expand...
Hi Major,

Yes good to clarify what I mean. Thank you for your graciousness. I grew up (early `50`s & `60`s) with Apostles and Prophets even of my own family, so I do have an experimental appreciation of such. However I can emphatically say that what is paraded as Apostles and Prophets on the internet and in recent books, is absolutely false, ridiculous and even demonic in origin. They are NOT CEO`s of large organisations, nor foretelling of world events such as who will win the next election, nor fortune telling people`s lives etc.

First let me say that from God`s word we know the OT Prophets (had a very difficult time) were for the nation of Israel. God spoke through them to warn, encourage and chastise His nation if they turned away from Him. Also they spoke of the coming rulership of God through them as a nation over the other nations of the earth.

Then we can also see that Christ the Head of His Body gave ministry gifts to His Body to build up, edify and equip the saints for the work of the ministry, (serving). (Eph. 4: 11 - 12)

Prophecy - for edification, exhortation & comfort. (1 Cor. 14 : 3) It is also the `spirit of Jesus.` (Rev. 19: 10) All may prophecy. (1 Cor. 14: 1)

Prophet - the office of a Prophet is a ministry gift, (Eph. 4: 11) & specifically spoken for relevance to the whole Body. It has a wider and deeper understanding of the will of God.

Apostle - the 12 apostles were a specific group who walked with the Lord, saw His ministry, witnessed His death, resurrection and ascension. The Lord told them to be His witnesses of such events and to witness that He is the Lord and Christ. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) (Acts 2: 3)

Then there are the Apostles that the Lord gave when He ascended to the Father. They are part of the ministry to equip the saints. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13) Note: `till we come to the unity of the faith...` (Eph. 4: 13) And this is still in progress as the Holy Spirit continues to guide us into all truth. (John 16: 13)

Now some of the Apostles in the early days were - Paul, ( Rom. 1: 1) Andronicus, Junia, (Rom. 16: 7) Silas, Timothy, (1 Thess. 1:1, & 2: 6) Apostles have a deep understanding of the character of Christ, and exhibit such. They help bring the Body to maturity in Christ bringing forth clarification on truths that have been `lost` over the years. Looking back we can see many such men who received revelation from the Lord, the Head, which energised the Body a fresh - Luther, Wesley, Wycliffe, Booth, and many others, Watchman Nee, and so many more who are behind the scenes in places all over the world that do not get in the news, but labour quietly where God has placed them.

That is how I see them, Marilyn.
 
Marilyn,
It's hard for me to imagine those that came hundreds of years later, that they comprise a foundation. That would mean those that came before missed out on the 'insights' of the 'later apostles'.

Rather...

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, Ephesians 2:20 (NASB)
 
crossnote said:
Marilyn,
It's hard for me to imagine those that came hundreds of years later, that they comprise a foundation. That would mean those that came before missed out on the 'insights' of the 'later apostles'.

Rather...

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, Ephesians 2:20 (NASB)
Click to expand...

Yes I understand what you are saying however that is not what I mean. May I explain further.

We all would agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY FOUNDATION.

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

So we ask ourselves, `What then of Eph. 2: 20, which you rightly point out. Obviously the Lord is not building upon man, but upon the revelation that the Lord has given them. The 12 apostles were instructed to witness of the Lord`s life, death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) This they did. (Acts 2: 36) They also taught of the future rulership of Christ over Israel to the nations. (Acts 1: 6) These are foundational truths.

Then when the Lord ascended and was made Head of the Body by His Father, (Eph. 1: 20 - 23) He gave further revelation, this time to the apostle Paul who then taught the `whole Counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) So then the early believers had all the truth, the whole Counsel of God. This `whole counsel of God,` included what the 12 apostles taught, plus the truths that - Christ is the Head of the Body, (Eph. 1: 22 & 23) what the Body was like with its gifts from the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 12, 13, 14) the ministry gifts, (Eph. 4: 11) and the future maturing of the Body, (Eph. 4: 13) and catching away, (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18) with the wonderful promise of a new body, (1 Cor. 15: 51 - 53) to Christ`s own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

Then we read of Paul telling the Ephesians that when he had departed that -

`...savage wolves would come in not sparing the flock,. Also, from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. `(Acts 20: 29 & 30)

And this is what happened over the centuries. I gave a summary in my OP however for those who like detail I will post more.
 
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Thus we see from history that the early believers were tested as to false teaching and this has continued down to our day. However the Holy Spirit continually moved upon people guiding the Body of Christ into all truth, just as the Lord said.

`However when He the Spirit of Truth has come, He will guide you into all truth;..` (John 16: 13)


1. The Early Believers. (AD Pentecost - 3rd century)

This is the time of the early Body of Christ. It began on the day of Pentecost by the Holy Spirit, and the believers continued steadfastly in the Apostle`s doctrine.

` And they (believers) continued steadfastly in the Apostle`s doctrine (teaching) and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers......and breaking bread from house to house, the ate their food with gladness of heart. `(Acts 2: 42 & 46)


The believers shared food, fellowship, and prayed together joyfully. There was no man made religious organisations, for the Holy Spirit enabled each to share.

`Let the word of Christ dwell in you rightly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.` (Col. 3: 16)

However as time went on false teachers, false prophets and false apostles arose. Paul admonished the Corinthians for coming under wrong leadership.

`For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you in the face.` (2 Cor. 12: 20)

A man called Diotrephes was one such person.

`Diotrephes who loves to have the pre-eminence ....pratting against us with malicious words....does not receive the brethren and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church, (gathering).` (3 John 9)
 
2. Formalism - Dark Ages. (3rd C - 1300`s)

There were many misleading teachings, such as legalism, (laws) Gnosticism, (secret knowing) spiritism, (connecting to evil spirits) ceremonialism, (traditions) and asceticism, (severe regulations), all of which made void of what Christ had done, and obscured His glory. Paul had addressed these false philosophies in his letter to the Colossians, so the believers had the truth to stand against such errors. (Col. 2: 8 - 23)

State Church. (4th century)

However in 313 AD the Emperor Constantine made Christianity a recognised religion in the Roman Empire and later Emperor Theodosius, in 380 AD made the faith the only official state religion. Thus formal Christianity began, and became known as the Roman Catholic Church, (organisation).

Being connected to man`s political system, a hierarchy of power developed with many erroneous teachings, all connected to the authority of the newly formed Church system. Bishops were substituted for Apostles, formalism instead of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, infant baptism instead of adult believer`s baptism and penance indulgences for salvation instead of belief in Christ.


Those who did not join man`s church organisation were ostracised and even persecuted often leading to death. However the Holy Spirit continued in people`s hearts encouraging them amid terrible persecution. This continued for many centuries.
 
3. Awakening of Spiritual Truth. (1300 - 1600)


The Bible Translated into English.

In 1384 John Wycliffe translated the Bible into English. This served as the focal point for a movement of people who roamed England sharing the gospel. Wycliffe was burned at the stake as a martyr not recanting his belief in Christ.

Lutherians. (16th century)

Others like Tyndale, (translator) Calvin and Luther all helped to provide leadership for a growing protest against the Roman Catholic System. Luther worked out the basic `Protestant` doctrines - Salvation by personal faith in Christ, biblical authority, and the priesthood of the believer. Calvin, however differed from Luther, especially not believing in the false teaching of the Eucharist being the real presence of Christ.


Church of England. (16th century)

In England the national Catholic Church without a pope moved towards being the Church of England. In 1611 the King James Version of the Bible was translated.


Baptists. (17th century)

Then there were a group called the Anabaptists who were unlike Luther and Calvin, rejecting the possibility of a territorial or national church. Instead they emphasised the biblical concept of the `gathered fellowship.` The Baptist church came from this group.
 
4. Evangelical Revivals. (1600 - 1900)

The 17th century gave rise to an intellectual movement called `the Age of Reason.` They believed that humans could do anything if they took control of their own lives. Most `enlightened` thinkers embraced the outlook called Deism - the belief in a God who created the world like a Great watchmaker, then relinquished control of His creation and allowed it to run without intervention and according to certain natural laws.

The evangelical revivals which followed were in part a reaction against this false teaching and also a response to the spiritual deadness of Protestant orthodoxy. The revivals started in Germany and then spread throughout other parts of Europe. The revival cut across classes and creeds, emphasised New Testament simplicity and the necessity of a personal experience of Christ. They were also deeply concerned for missions and evangelism as well as Christian social ministry.

Methodists. (18th century)

John Wesley and his brother Charles, who wrote many hymns, won many hundreds of thousands of converts across England. They formed `societies,` which in 1784 became known as Methodists for their `methodical way in which they carried out their Christian faith.`

America also had great revivals led by George Whitefield and Jonathon Edwards. The Holy Spirit brought about a renewed spiritual life and social sensitivity. However it split nearly every major Christian group. Yet `revivalism` has continued to be a major part of American Christian life down to the present.

The revivals also brought about a new wave of Christian social activism. In Great Britain William Wilberforce led a successful campaign to first abolish the slave trade (1807) and then slavery itself in the British Empire, (1833). Wilberforce and his evangelical associates led the way for educational and prison reforms, and the establishment of the British and Foreign Bible Society, (1804).

The great revivals also brought forth the modern missionary movement. Carey went to India, Adoniram to Burma, David Livingston to East Africa and Hudson Taylor to China.

These and many more missionaries went to the far flung corners of the earth to bring the gospel to people that had not received the good news.


Salvation Army. (19th century)


William and Catherine Booth believed their denomination, (Methodists) had become too respectable so they founded the Salvation Army in London`s East End in order to reach the down-and-out for Jesus. In the process, they established not only a dynamic evangelistic society but also the world`s most efficient and compassionate welfare agency.


Other great revivalists were Charles Spurgeon, (England), Charles Finney and Dwight Moody, (America).



 
5. Pentecostal Revivals. (1900 - 1950)

At the beginning of the 1900`s there was another significant stage of growth in the Body of Christ. God`s Holy Spirit awakened people to a deeper understanding and walk with Him. Two great outpourings occurred - one in Azusa Street in America, and the other in Wales. This became known as the Pentecostal revivals.

Pentecostalism spread rapidly to Europe, South America and Australia. In less than a century it became a major force in the Christian world. The main denomination was the Assemblies of God which formed from many groups that arose.


Apostolic Church.

Also from the Wales revival there was another restoration of truth. This was the revelation of the five ministry gifts of Christ. The Apostolic Church was formed and grew slowly over the years. It took nearly a century though for the other Pentecostal groups to receive the revelation of `Prophets and Apostles.`

Along with the restoration of truths to the Body of Christ, there has been much error and Church splitting over some aspects of doctrine.
 
In the middle of the 19th century the Holy Spirit accelerated His wonderful movements across the Body of Christ. Previously Holy Spirit movements were in a few areas however now the Holy Spirit moved across denominations, overflowing every barrier of man. It was the beginning of the restoration of the truth of the five ministry gifts of Christ to His Body.


Evangelist. (`50`s) People like Billy Graham travelled the world speaking to hundreds of thousands of people drawing them to Christ.


Charismatic renewal. (`60`s) The infilling of the Holy Spirit was experienced by ministers, and believers right across the Body. The Full Gospel Business men`s meetings played a big part in bringing believers of all denominations together.


Shepherd/Pastor.(`70`s) There was a big move of the Holy Spirit among the hippies in the `70`s. As they came to know Christ a shepherding movement took place to guide the new believers in their walk with the Lord.


Teacher. (`80`s) Next we see the Holy Spirit raise up great teachers, like Derek Prince, who traveled the world teaching the believers the word of God. Radio programs, tapes and books were all used to help believers receive good teaching.


Prophet. (`90`s) Although prophecy had been received the revelation of the office of the Prophet was new to most believers. The Prophetic Office brings direction to the Body concerning the purposes of Christ.


Apostle. (2000) This office is the most controversial of the ministry gifts and least understood. However it is essential, with the others, to bring the Body to maturity in Christ. The Apostle brings forth the character of Christ.
 
Contemporary Move of God.

The Whole Counsel of God.

Looking back over the last 2000 years we see the amazing work, the Lord Jesus, the Head of the Body has been doing amid the great battle. Satan and his demons have sought to overpower the believers with errors and false teachings. The battle has been fierce with many people having to die for their belief in Christ.

The Apostle Paul taught the whole counsel of God to the disciples; however those truths were challenged and seemingly done away with when a church system was made which sought power and control over the believer.

Yet the Holy Spirit has continually guided the believers over the centuries, - truths of,
  • Salvation, (Lutherians),
  • Believer`s baptism, (Baptists),
  • Holy living, (Methodists),
  • Infilling of the Holy Spirit, (Pentecostals) and
  • The five ministry gifts of Christ, (Apostolic).


The Eternal Purposes.

Still there is one last great truth which the Holy Spirit is bringing to the believers. This truth, by the Holy Spirit, will bring the believers to full maturity in Christ. This truth is the great revelation of the Eternal Purposes in Christ for three groups.

For the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Receiving the truth of the Eternal Purposes in Christ brings the Body full circle to the whole counsel of God that the Apostle Paul taught.


The Apostle Paul said -`I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)


Thus with all the restored truths, (salvation, baptism, holy living, infilling of the Holy Spirit, the 5 ministries of Christ) we come to the final truth - the Eternal Purposes of Christ, to bring the whole Body of Christ to maturity in Him.


`Christ....gave Himself some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)



 
Marilyn C said:
Hi Major,

Yes good to clarify what I mean. Thank you for your graciousness. I grew up (early `50`s & `60`s) with Apostles and Prophets even of my own family, so I do have an experimental appreciation of such. However I can emphatically say that what is paraded as Apostles and Prophets on the internet and in recent books, is absolutely false, ridiculous and even demonic in origin. They are NOT CEO`s of large organisations, nor foretelling of world events such as who will win the next election, nor fortune telling people`s lives etc.

First let me say that from God`s word we know the OT Prophets (had a very difficult time) were for the nation of Israel. God spoke through them to warn, encourage and chastise His nation if they turned away from Him. Also they spoke of the coming rulership of God through them as a nation over the other nations of the earth.

Then we can also see that Christ the Head of His Body gave ministry gifts to His Body to build up, edify and equip the saints for the work of the ministry, (serving). (Eph. 4: 11 - 12)

Prophecy - for edification, exhortation & comfort. (1 Cor. 14 : 3) It is also the `spirit of Jesus.` (Rev. 19: 10) All may prophecy. (1 Cor. 14: 1)

Prophet - the office of a Prophet is a ministry gift, (Eph. 4: 11) & specifically spoken for relevance to the whole Body. It has a wider and deeper understanding of the will of God.

Apostle - the 12 apostles were a specific group who walked with the Lord, saw His ministry, witnessed His death, resurrection and ascension. The Lord told them to be His witnesses of such events and to witness that He is the Lord and Christ. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) (Acts 2: 3)

Then there are the Apostles that the Lord gave when He ascended to the Father. They are part of the ministry to equip the saints. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13) Note: `till we come to the unity of the faith...` (Eph. 4: 13) And this is still in progress as the Holy Spirit continues to guide us into all truth. (John 16: 13)

Now some of the Apostles in the early days were - Paul, ( Rom. 1: 1) Andronicus, Junia, (Rom. 16: 7) Silas, Timothy, (1 Thess. 1:1, & 2: 6) Apostles have a deep understanding of the character of Christ, and exhibit such. They help bring the Body to maturity in Christ bringing forth clarification on truths that have been `lost` over the years. Looking back we can see many such men who received revelation from the Lord, the Head, which energised the Body a fresh - Luther, Wesley, Wycliffe, Booth, and many others, Watchman Nee, and so many more who are behind the scenes in places all over the world that do not get in the news, but labour quietly where God has placed them.

That is how I see them, Marilyn.
Click to expand...

That was a lot of work. I appreciate anyone who goes to that kind of effort and I agree with you.

My point was.....there are NO such thing as Apostles today in the Biblical understanding because NO ONE today meets the qualifications of the 12 original Apostles.

Then as for Prophets for foretell the future they are not needed as we have the completed Word of God. What is needed is people who can and will teach the Word of God correctly as it is written.

Thanks for your efforts! Your work speaks highly of your committed spirit!
 
Major said:
the qualifications of the 12 original Apostles.
Click to expand...
  1. The candidate was required to be someone who followed Jesus during his entire earthly ministry, beginning from Jesus’ baptism by John to Jesus’ ascension into heaven (1:21–22a).
  2. The candidate was required to have seen Jesus after His resurrection (1:22b).
  3. The candidate needed to have been appointed by the Lord Jesus himself (1:24–25).
while i try do my best to let those who feel they need a flashy title beside there name. i am not a fan of those who use Bishop or apostle with a name... so often this a man made way of elevation myself i dont even use the term reverend , i prefer bro having said that i cant change anyone only the Holy Spirit can do this.
 
forgiven61 said:
  1. The candidate was required to be someone who followed Jesus during his entire earthly ministry, beginning from Jesus’ baptism by John to Jesus’ ascension into heaven (1:21–22a).
  2. The candidate was required to have seen Jesus after His resurrection (1:22b).
  3. The candidate needed to have been appointed by the Lord Jesus himself (1:24–25).
while i try do my best to let those who feel they need a flashy title beside there name. i am not a fan of those who use Bishop or apostle with a name... so often this a man made way of elevation myself i dont even use the term reverend , i prefer bro having said that i cant change anyone only the Holy Spirit can do this.
Click to expand...

The 3 qualifications that you posted are exactly why there can not be any Apostles today. NO ONE meets those qualifications.
 
Major said:
That was a lot of work. I appreciate anyone who goes to that kind of effort and I agree with you.

My point was.....there are NO such thing as Apostles today in the Biblical understanding because NO ONE today meets the qualifications of the 12 original Apostles.

Then as for Prophets for foretell the future they are not needed as we have the completed Word of God. What is needed is people who can and will teach the Word of God correctly as it is written.

Thanks for your efforts! Your work speaks highly of your committed spirit!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your kind comments. I do like to research and write, (having been a teacher).
Now I also agree with you that no one else can meet the requirements of the pre-ascension apostles. They are a specific group. we read of those qualifications in Acts 1: 21 & 22, as forgiven laid out for us. These men were to witness of the Lord, His life, death, resurrection and ascension, He is the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2: 36) Foundational truths.

HOWEVER.....when the Lord ascended HE GAVE SOME TO BE APOSTLES, SOME PROPHETS.... `(Eph. 4: 11) Why? `...for the equipping of the saints to do the work of the ministry,` (serving). (Eph. 4: 12)

Thus we read of Apostle Paul, `Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an APOSTLE,...` (Rom. 1: 1)

Apostle Timothy & Apostle Silvanus. `Paul, Silanus, and Timothy,....as Apostles of Christ...` (1 Thess. 1: 1, 2: 6)

Apostle Andronicus and Apostle Junia. `Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who were of note among the APOSTLES, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

And others......

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Apostle and High priest of our confession. `Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and high Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus. `(Heb. 3: 1)

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Body is Apostle, Prophet, Teacher, Shepherd, & Evangel. Those 5 ministries are of the Lord. He gave them WHEN HE ASCENDED to build up, equip and mature the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. They are known as post-ascension ministries.

Marilyn.
 
Marilyn C said:
Yes I understand what you are saying however that is not what I mean. May I explain further.

We all would agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY FOUNDATION.

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

So we ask ourselves, `What then of Eph. 2: 20, which you rightly point out. Obviously the Lord is not building upon man, but upon the revelation that the Lord has given them. The 12 apostles were instructed to witness of the Lord`s life, death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) This they did. (Acts 2: 36) They also taught of the future rulership of Christ over Israel to the nations. (Acts 1: 6) These are foundational truths.

Then when the Lord ascended and was made Head of the Body by His Father, (Eph. 1: 20 - 23) He gave further revelation, this time to the apostle Paul who then taught the `whole Counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) So then the early believers had all the truth, the whole Counsel of God. This `whole counsel of God,` included what the 12 apostles taught, plus the truths that - Christ is the Head of the Body, (Eph. 1: 22 & 23) what the Body was like with its gifts from the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 12, 13, 14) the ministry gifts, (Eph. 4: 11) and the future maturing of the Body, (Eph. 4: 13) and catching away, (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18) with the wonderful promise of a new body, (1 Cor. 15: 51 - 53) to Christ`s own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

Then we read of Paul telling the Ephesians that when he had departed that -

`...savage wolves would come in not sparing the flock,. Also, from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. `(Acts 20: 29 & 30)

And this is what happened over the centuries. I gave a summary in my OP however for those who like detail I will post more.
Click to expand...
crossnote said:
Marilyn,
It's hard for me to imagine those that came hundreds of years later, that they comprise a foundation. That would mean those that came before missed out on the 'insights' of the 'later (so called) apostles'.

Rather...

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, Ephesians 2:20 (NASB)
Click to expand...
So I take it you agreed with my statement?
 
crossnote said:
So I take it you agreed with my statement?
Click to expand...
Sorry that I didn`t come over clearer to you. I will try again. Now you said -

`It's hard for me to imagine those that came hundreds of years later, that they comprise a foundation. That would mean those that came before missed out on the 'insights' of the 'later (so called) apostles'.
Rather...having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, Ephesians 2:20 (NASB)`

We both agree that God`s word tells us the Jesus is the FOUNDATION. The Apostles and Prophets as men are NOT the foundation, but the revelation that Jesus gave to them. So let`s look a bit closer at what Jesus actually revealed to whom.

The 12 Apostles were to witness of Jesus risen and ascended, who is the Lord and Christ.

`...one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 22)
`..Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)

The 12 disciples however were NOT given the revelation of the Body of Christ. Remember Peter had to be told by the Holy Spirit to go to the Gentiles, and then later he tried to get the Gentiles to act like Jews. Paul had to rebuke Peter. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

`But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all. "If you, being a Jew live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews.` (Gal. 2: 14)

It was the Apostle Paul who was given the revelation of Christ as Head of His Body, and what the Body was, the gifts and ministries, and promised inheritance. Paul gave his disciples the `Whole Counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) Then he goes on to warn them that there would come in false teachers teaching perverse things. And we see this as we look back over history. (see summary in OP) However the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told us, has continued to guide the Body into all truth. And this is over centuries.

So...we can see that the 12 apostles only had the foundational truth, (Jesus is Lord and Christ), while Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ with Christ as its Head. That is ALL THE TRUTH written in God`s word and there is no other truth to be revealed here on earth. There is however need of clarification of those truths in God`s word for over the centuries much error came in, and it has taken centuries for the clarification of all those truths to come to us today.

So NO later apostle can claim to bring in more truth, (as the New Apostolic Reformation declares). There is ONLY the CLARIFICATION of truths concerning Christ, which are IN God`s Word.

Marilyn.
 
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