What the Lord has been doing for 2000 + years.

[Marilyn C]

There are many gifts that Christ gives us. I'm not sure that many Christians recognize the gifts available or even sometimes the gifts received.

I do believe though that God gives each of us what we need when we need it. Faith is certainly a gift and scripture shows that it has measure. There are a number of scriptures that tell us about these gifts mostly in general terms.

As to "Apostles" there are several challenges to this. First one must show that God gifted someone with this ordination? Secondly what exactly is the gift given because Apostle is just a title? How does one know that it is God that ordained any particular individual to this office?

I look at these things through a couple of lens.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

1 Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (KJV)

Personally God has not made me aware of any apostles today. That is not evidence of anything one way or another though. Primarily though I won't know an apostle if I saw one because I don't have something to define what an apostle is today. If someone claimed apostleship, then I would need to look at the various tests of the spirit, pray for discernment and seek the wisdom of God in the matter.

Hi CP,

Yes there are many gifts given by the Holy Spirit, I agree. However I am specifically talking about the Ministries of the ascended Lord Jesus - some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers. (Eph. 4: 11)

Most of us can readily identify with the evangelist, eg, Billy Graham, (etc) and teacher, Derek Prince, (etc) and pastors, shepherding local groups. However not every one can identify or have experienced the ministry of Apostles &/or Prophets.

Now when you say `First one must show that God gifted someone with this ordination.` Wouldn`t that apply to ALL the ministries of the ascended Lord? The Apostle Paul always said `Paul, an apostle (not of men nor though man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), ...` (Gal. 1: 1) Paul always said his apostleship was from God.

People go to Bible College, (I have also) & thus it is assumed they are a pastor who teaches, and can thus lead a fellowship. However God may not have called them to the ministry. Just having man`s credentials does not a minister make.

I believe you have said well regarding not one way or the other, (as to do with Apostles & Prophets). Also good to see you say about the need for discernment. Now I was brought up with such ministries and thus I have had experience with them. However today`s brand of many so called apostles are just CEO`s and self appointed `lording it over` type people. Also many of the so called prophets you hear on the internet etc are just fortune telling, and not just false but actually demonic. The true apostle and prophet offices only point to the Lord and work in with the other ministries. They do not have to have the title, but the function speaks for itself as from the Lord.

Here is a part of a longer prophecy from the Pengroes Convention, (come out of the Welch revival) in 1943. Just to give you an idea.

In Christ Alone.

The Lord says -

`It is not the towering ability of individual men that will bring the close of this dispensation to an end, but it will be the ripening, the moulding, the perfecting of a Body of People that will be peculiarly Mine.

There will be no possibility for `flesh` to glory, for all will be interwoven one into the other, and in the center of them will be the fires of Divine Affection, in the center of them will be the seeds of Divine Love, in the center of them will be the deposit of the eternal Purpose of God;

And when that time will come, it will be far greater! - drawing from the earth a people (who have been Mine) in the sense of rapture; it will be the carrying away from the earth of that functional Organ from the realm of Time into its Eternal Setting.`



Prophetic Word (part of) from the Apostolic Convention in Penygroes, 1943.

Prophetic Ministry through Pastor J.D. Eynon.

 

[bobinfaith]

There are many gifts that Christ gives us. I'm not sure that many Christians recognize the gifts available or even sometimes the gifts received.

I do believe though that God gives each of us what we need when we need it. Faith is certainly a gift and scripture shows that it has measure. There are a number of scriptures that tell us about these gifts mostly in general terms.

As to "Apostles" there are several challenges to this. First one must show that God gifted someone with this ordination? Secondly what exactly is the gift given because Apostle is just a title? How does one know that it is God that ordained any particular individual to this office?

I look at these things through a couple of lens.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

1 Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (KJV)

Personally God has not made me aware of any apostles today. That is not evidence of anything one way or another though. Primarily though I won't know an apostle if I saw one because I don't have something to define what an apostle is today. If someone claimed apostleship, then I would need to look at the various tests of the spirit, pray for discernment and seek the wisdom of God in the matter.

Hi CP,

Yes there are many gifts given by the Holy Spirit, I agree. However I am specifically talking about the Ministries of the ascended Lord Jesus - some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers. (Eph. 4: 11)

Most of us can readily identify with the evangelist, eg, Billy Graham, (etc) and teacher, Derek Prince, (etc) and pastors, shepherding local groups. However not every one can identify or have experienced the ministry of Apostles &/or Prophets.

Now when you say `First one must show that God gifted someone with this ordination.` Wouldn`t that apply to ALL the ministries of the ascended Lord? The Apostle Paul always said `Paul, an apostle (not of men nor though man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), ...` (Gal. 1: 1) Paul always said his apostleship was from God.

People go to Bible College, (I have also) & thus it is assumed they are a pastor who teaches, and can thus lead a fellowship. However God may not have called them to the ministry. Just having man`s credentials does not a minister make.

I believe you have said well regarding not one way or the other, (as to do with Apostles & Prophets). Also good to see you say about the need for discernment. Now I was brought up with such ministries and thus I have had experience with them. However today`s brand of many so called apostles are just CEO`s and self appointed `lording it over` type people. Also many of the so called prophets you hear on the internet etc are just fortune telling, and not just false but actually demonic. The true apostle and prophet offices only point to the Lord and work in with the other ministries. They do not have to have the title, but the function speaks for itself as from the Lord.

Here is a part of a longer prophecy from the Pengroes Convention, (come out of the Welch revival) in 1943. Just to give you an idea.

In Christ Alone.

The Lord says -

`It is not the towering ability of individual men that will bring the close of this dispensation to an end, but it will be the ripening, the moulding, the perfecting of a Body of People that will be peculiarly Mine.

There will be no possibility for `flesh` to glory, for all will be interwoven one into the other, and in the center of them will be the fires of Divine Affection, in the center of them will be the seeds of Divine Love, in the center of them will be the deposit of the eternal Purpose of God;

And when that time will come, it will be far greater! - drawing from the earth a people (who have been Mine) in the sense of rapture; it will be the carrying away from the earth of that functional Organ from the realm of Time into its Eternal Setting.`



Prophetic Word (part of) from the Apostolic Convention in Penygroes, 1943.

Prophetic Ministry through Pastor J.D. Eynon.

As Chuck was sharing, There are many gifts that Christ gives us. I'm not sure that many Christians recognize the gifts available or even sometimes the gifts received.

It's sad that many Christians who are actively in the heart of worship don't recognize their spiritual gifts besides talents, abilities and skills. I feel a lot has to do with the lack of being discipled, trained and built up by their church leader.

Marilyn shares, People go to Bible College, (I have also) & thus it is assumed they are a pastor who teaches, and can thus lead a fellowship. However God may not have called them to the ministry. Just having man`s credentials does not a minister make.

Some of my buddies who graduated from seminary were blessed with a great GPA but struggled with pastoring a church and became so discouraged. Some had wonderful theology and Bible knowledge but lacked the people skills and how to relate to members with a variety of people problems. Others treated the church as a career instead of a calling. Again, even theologians and ministers still need to be discipled and unfortunately, they weren't trained to recognize their gifts by a mentor.

I also have an additional thought. Do we limit God's calling or our spiritual gifts? I believe God can take His servant and assign them a new calling at that moment, and more than one spiritual gift.

Your thoughts?

 

[CPerkins]

Hi CP,

......

Now when you say `First one must show that God gifted someone with this ordination.` Wouldn`t that apply to ALL the ministries of the ascended Lord? The Apostle Paul always said `Paul, an apostle (not of men nor though man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), ...` (Gal. 1: 1) Paul always said his apostleship was from God.

People go to Bible College, (I have also) & thus it is assumed they are a pastor who teaches, and can thus lead a fellowship. However God may not have called them to the ministry. Just having man`s credentials does not a minister make.

I believe you have said well regarding not one way or the other, (as to do with Apostles & Prophets). Also good to see you say about the need for discernment. Now I was brought up with such ministries and thus I have had experience with them. However today`s brand of many so called apostles are just CEO`s and self appointed `lording it over` type people. Also many of the so called prophets you hear on the internet etc are just fortune telling, and not just false but actually demonic. The true apostle and prophet offices only point to the Lord and work in with the other ministries. They do not have to have the title, but the function speaks for itself as from the Lord.

.........

I agree that education of itself doesn't produce a church pastor or teacher per se. With God's calling this education cannot produce a real minister of God. It is God that ordains his ministers for whatever purpose.

I also agree that one should test those that are said to be ministers and teachers. To do that one must come to know God's word, allow God to lead them, listening regularly and talking regularly with God in study and prayer. Discerning the truth and testing the spirit in men is necessary of all men.

 

[Marilyn C]

As Chuck was sharing, There are many gifts that Christ gives us. I'm not sure that many Christians recognize the gifts available or even sometimes the gifts received.

It's sad that many Christians who are actively in the heart of worship don't recognize their spiritual gifts besides talents, abilities and skills. I feel a lot has to do with the lack of being discipled, trained and built up by their church leader.

Marilyn shares, People go to Bible College, (I have also) & thus it is assumed they are a pastor who teaches, and can thus lead a fellowship. However God may not have called them to the ministry. Just having man`s credentials does not a minister make.

Some of my buddies who graduated from seminary were blessed with a great GPA but struggled with pastoring a church and became so discouraged. Some had wonderful theology and Bible knowledge but lacked the people skills and how to relate to members with a variety of people problems. Others treated the church as a career instead of a calling. Again, even theologians and ministers still need to be discipled and unfortunately, they weren't trained to recognize their gifts by a mentor.

I also have an additional thought. Do we limit God's calling or our spiritual gifts? I believe God can take His servant and assign them a new calling at that moment, and more than one spiritual gift.

Your thoughts?

Hi Bob,

Some good and thoughtful questions there. I believe the `calling` of God as to the 5 fold ascension ministries, (Eph. 4: 11) are `the person,` the gift to the Body of Christ from the Lord Himself. These ministries can also have multiple ministries such as pastor/teacher, evangelist/teacher, Apostle/prophet/teacher/pastor. and even evangelist. I have seen men such as this.

As to the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, they are for the edification and encouragement etc of the Body so we can seek these. Some of course have been given the gift of healing, of miracles, however as Paul says `you all may prophecy.` I think a `word` from the Lord of comfort, encouragement, exhortation and admonishment, is needed but when given amongst accountable, relational people.

Thus I believe the functioning of each person`s gift is best brought forth in the small group setting, where they know each other, help and receive of each other. As the believers grow they then can establish relationships and function also, with help from their mentors. It is like a family core group and then the children go on to have their families. Though the core group is made up of various families.

This is how we operate over our way. We also relate to those in denominations, other Christians in our area. It is, ever expanding core groups functioning in daily life together. The key is always the relationship each has with the other. If it is not based on relationship (person to person) (& obviously to God) then it is very superficial. That is why many `house groups` organised by the denomination don`t work, because man is trying to put people together instead of the Holy Spirit.

And your point about needing to be trained by the pastor/leader, is right on. Though I would say that the training needs to be done by the `saints` as that is what God`s word tell us - for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, (Eph. 4: 12). And that is to `disciple` others. Once a person has been a believer for a while then with the help of their mentor they should be out and about making relationships (whom the Lord sends) and discipling them. That is 2 Tim. 2: 2, and how the early believers functioned. Sadly the denominational model has taken all the roles and functions to itself.

Thus people are leaving in droves and seeking the Lord as to what He would have them to do.

 

[CPerkins]

We are given a broad list of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians. Which includes differences in administrating and operating followed by examples:

1 Cor 12:4-7 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (KJV)

It is the same Spirit found in each of us but put to use in different ways as God sees fit.
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (KJV)

Paul goes into great detail about the gifts of love given to all in varying degrees and flavors and the gift of prophecy. He tells us that these gifts are for the body of Christ and for the edification of the church as well in these passages.

1 Cor 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. (KJV)