imho i laid it out . this is my absolute last reply this is like beating a dead dog it does no good. to clarify i have not said the office of the apostles was intact today. however Marilyn has presented a good case for her defense in romans 16 . have a good evening
What the Lord has been doing for 2000 + years.
- Thread starter Marilyn C
- Start date
Hi Major,
Glad we can agree that the Apostles, Silvanus and Timothy were not included in the original 11/12. So we ask ourselves, “What is the difference between the Apostles called by the Lord BEFORE His ascension and the Apostles called AFTER His ascension?”
Let`s go to God`s word to find out their scriptural requirements.
The 12 Apostles of the Lamb. (before Christ`s ascension)
`Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)
Peter preaches to the people of Israel -
`Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)
There we see what the 12 disciples witnessed that - Jesus is Lord and Christ. Foundational truth. However they did not know of the revelation of the Body of Christ. They were looking for the Lord to come and rule through Israel.
`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom (rule) to Israel?` (Acts 1: 6)
And Peter had to be told by the Holy Spirit to go to the Gentiles. (Acts 10) And even then Peter tried to get the Gentiles to act like the Jews.
`But when Peter had come to Antioch, I (Paul) withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision, and the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
But when I (Paul) saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, line in the manner of Gentiles and not as a Jew, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)
Then we know that the 12 Apostles of the Lamb have been promised a special position - to rule over Israel in the New Heavens and New Earth time.
`So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)
`Now the wall of the city had 12 foundations and on them were the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)
Thus we see that the 12 Apostles were to be a witness of Christ and His resurrection and also promised a special rulership over Israel.
Now let us look at some aspects of the Apostles that the Lord gave AFTER his ascension.
The Apostles AFTER the Lord`s ascension.
When the Lord Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s throne at His right hand. There the Father gave Him to be Head over the Body.
`And He (Father) put all things under His (Jesus`) feet, and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body..` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)
Then we know that Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to guide the Body into all truth, and to set the believers in the Body of Christ.
`However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth;...` (John 16: 13)
`But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the Body just as He pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)
The Holy Spirit also builds and matures the Body.
`Jesus...when He ascended.....gave gifts to men....He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets...for the equipping of the saints to do the work of the ministry, (serving) till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God a perfect, (mature) man..` (Eph. 4: 8 - 13)
`And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers....` (1 Cor. 12: 28)
So then what is the significance of Apostleship?
Apostleship is the manifestation of specific ministries of Christ. It is the Apostle-Christ in Apostolic action through human channels.
Apostleship is wholly resident in our glorious Head. Apostleship therefore always directs our eyes to Him who is its fount. Apostleship ever exalts the Christ. It is wholly of Him and wholly to Him. Each Apostle carries but a fraction of the whole which is, in entirety, in `The Apostle....Christ Jesus.` (Heb. 3: 1)
The Signs of Apostleship.
`Truly the signs of an Apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12)
(Much to be talked about here)
The Seal of Apostleship.
`...the seal of mine Apostleship are you in the Lord.` (1 Cor. 9: 2)
(Just a start on this great topic.)
Absolutly agreed.
So true forgiven, and the pit ponies could only understand swearing, so they had to learn again how to respond.
a guy i went school with was a missionary in Luxemburg got to take a trip to where the church stands .he commented as he was approaching it. a local native wondered what was so special about that Church. i have read several articles on it. my understanding it was a Methodist church
That is very interesting forgiven.
I have the book, `I saw the Welsh revival.` It says,
`When the revival burst forth in all its glory within the walls of Moriah Calvinistic Methodist Chapel, the unsophisticated inhabitants of the smug hamlet were like them that dreamed - they seemed to have been aroused out of the sleep of ages. Staggered by the strange, unheard of sights, they wondered what was happening. Before they had completely recovered from surprise, the name of the village, Loughor, had become famous overnight.`
You said............
"So NO later apostle can claim to bring in more truth, (as the New Apostolic Reformation declares). So NO later apostle can claim to bring in more truth, (as the New Apostolic Reformation declares).
Agreed!
There can not be an "Apostle" in the classic sense that is attributed to the original 12 because no one today can meet the Bible requirements of an Apostle as set forth in the Scriptures.
Therefore, it is then impossible to have any "new revelations".
Then you said............
"There is ONLY the CLARIFICATION of truths concerning Christ, which are IN God`s Word".
Correct!
Hi Major,
Good we can agree on certain truths. However would you care to comment on this part of my post -
Now let us look at some aspects of the Apostles that the Lord gave AFTER his ascension.
The Apostles AFTER the Lord`s ascension.
When the Lord Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s throne at His right hand. There the Father gave Him to be Head over the Body.
`And He (Father) put all things under His (Jesus`) feet, and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body..` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)
Then we know that Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to guide the Body into all truth, and to set the believers in the Body of Christ.
`However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth;...` (John 16: 13)
`But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the Body just as He pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)
The Holy Spirit also builds and matures the Body.
`Jesus...when He ascended.....gave gifts to men....He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets...for the equipping of the saints to do the work of the ministry, (serving) till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God a perfect, (mature) man..` (Eph. 4: 8 - 13)
`And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers....` (1 Cor. 12: 28)
So then what is the significance of Apostleship?
Apostleship is the manifestation of specific ministries of Christ. It is the Apostle-Christ in Apostolic action through human channels.
Apostleship is wholly resident in our glorious Head. Apostleship therefore always directs our eyes to Him who is its fount. Apostleship ever exalts the Christ. It is wholly of Him and wholly to Him. Each Apostle carries but a fraction of the whole which is, in entirety, in `The Apostle....Christ Jesus.` (Heb. 3: 1)
The Signs of Apostleship.
`Truly the signs of an Apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12)
The Seal of Apostleship.
`...the seal of mine Apostleship are you in the Lord.` (1 Cor. 9: 2)
Certainly, however I thought that I already had.
It has to do with how we interpret the word "Apostle"
If we are saying that "AFTER" the assention of Christ there were Apostles who were called out to share the gospel and teach what had been said and written by the 12 then YES, I agree. There are "called out" people today. Personally I would never use the name of "Apostle" for those people. That tends to send a wrong message as most people equate that name to the original 12.
However, if we are saying that there were more men who were given the "SIGN GIFTS" that were given to the original 12 Apostles who saw Jesus and was commissioned by Him in Mark 16, ......then NO. Because NO ONE today is able to say that he saw Jesus, lived with Jesus and was there for His death and resurrection.
2 Corth. 12:12 is a reference to the original 12.
1 Cor. 12: 28 is also a reference to those same 12.
1 Cor. 9: 2 is also a reference to those same 12.
Apostles were a unique group personally taught by Jesus, and they seemed to possess multiple gifts, including healing and the ability to raise the dead (Paul raised Eutychus from the dead, Acts 20:10-12). In my opinion, when someone today claims to be an apostle, he should be taken to a mortuary and required to raise a dead person to prove hubristic claims.
LOL............Amen!
Those 12 men that Jesus commissioned were able to do what He did.
Mark 16:14-18....
" Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Hi Major,
Actually it is how God`s word interprets His word. So are you telling me that all that is taught is what the 12 disciples taught? What about the doctrine of the Body of Christ? The 12 disciples/apostles never had that doctrine. Also what about the doctrine of the catching away? The 12 disciples/apostles never knew of that.
So what of these Apostles that the Lord when He ascended gave to His Body for maturing -
Paul, Silvanus and Timothy - `we might have made demands as APOSTLES of Christ..` (1 Thess. 1: 1, 2: 6)
etc....
"Silvanus is the surname of "SILAS". He was NOT one of the original 12 but was of the 70 Jesus sent out.
Along with Judas/Barsabas, a "leading" man "among the brethren" (Acts 15:22) in Jerusalem, so Silas was one of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. Silas is also called "Silvanus" (1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1), spent some time ministering to the young church in Antioch, and then accompanied Paul on his next missionary journey.
ACTS 15:22 22 .........
"Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
Who accompanied Paul and Barnabas back to Antioch?
Acts 15:22.......
"Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas" (Acts 15:22).
Then to answer your question.......YES.
I believe that the Bible teaches us that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets in the first generation of the church, with Jesus as the cornerstone. The foundation here is the revelation of the gospel and its extension to all nations through the work of the Apostles.
The doctrine of the body of Christ IS IN the Bible and Paul gave it as a MYSTERY which he revealed. Seven key passages in the New Testament describe the Church. Ephesians 1.22-23; 2.11-22; 3.3-9; Colossians 1.24-27; 1 Corinthians 12.12-13; Galatians 3.26-28, and Romans 16.25-27.
The "Catching Away" is also found in the wrings of the Apostles and many more including several of the prophets. "Types or Pictures of the Rapture are all through the Old Test.
Noah and the flood. Sodom & Gomorrah. The story Joseph. Rahab and the Jewish spies. Daniel 3. In Zephaniah 2:2-3.
Now the key to this is that either "every" Christian doctrine must be found in the Bible or it comes from the mind of a man.
Some/many Christian doctrines we have today were realized after the Prophets and Apostles wrote them.
After receiving prophetic messages from God, the prophet Daniel asked what they meant:
Daniel 12:8-9.........
Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?” And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
Here we have a biblical writer not understanding the meaning of the divine revelation that he received. He knew the message was divinely given, but he was not certain what it meant.
Glad we can find things we agree on.
So.....When Jesus ascended ....`He gave some apostles, some Prophets......
- TILL WE ALL COME TO THE UNITY of the faith
- and the knowledge of the Son of God,
- to a perfect man,
- to the measure of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)
Care to comment on that scripture, Major?
He (Christ) gave "Some apostles" to the church.
The 12 Apostles were all men who had not only seen the resurrected Christ but had also been directly and personally commissioned by Him to be an Apostle. As I explained.....THEY--- the original 12 had a special inspiration. THEY could do the things and miracles including raising the dead.
He gave "some prophets". This is a reference to New Test. prophets. Those men were given special insights into the doctrines of faith.
They were under the immediate influence and inspiration of the Holy Spirt which distinguished them from the teachers.
1 Corth 12:10.........
"to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."
There is no one today with this office or an apostle in that sense.
"Some evangelists". Those were traveling missionaries. Paul was also an evangelist. They went into new territory as God opened those doors.
Those men were given to the church 2000 years ago so that the church might be brought to FULL MATURITY in Christ .
All of these men were given by God tp prepare and establish the church so that the believers might do the work of ministering and building up the body of Christ.
Thank you for your understanding Major.
I agree that the Apostles before Christ`s ascension had a special purpose - to witness of Christ`s life, death, resurrection and ascension. Then when Christ ascended He gave some MORE Apostles and Prophets, (etc) to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. We must NOT forget that they are given to the Body and as you say that the church might be brought to full maturity in Christ.
Now we know that the Lord is -
Apostle - `..consider the Apostle and High priest of our confession, Christ Jesus.` (Heb. 3: 1)
Prophet - `This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.` (Matt. 21: 11)
Teacher - `Rabbi, we know you are a Teacher come from God..` (John 3: 2)
Shepherd - `l am the good Shepherd...` (John 10: 14)
Evangelist - (a preacher of the gospel) `Now Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel...` (Matt. 4: 23)
So the full ministries of the Lord are - Apostle, Prophet, teacher, Shepherd, and Evangelist. Christ is the Head and from Him flows ALL HIS FULLNESS, ALL HIS MINISTRIES. Why? So that His Body may come to the fullness of Christ.
this is why i say this is all being fulfilled by the preaching of the word
I agree that `preaching` is very important, however, personally I would not like to limit Christ`s Headship to ONE function. Christ as Head of His BOdy has many different ministries, gifts of the Holy Spirit, and serving throughout His Body.
I appreciate all I have and do receive from Christ`s ministry gifts, for they have enlightened my understanding of Christ, His character and His purposes. I know the `vessel` is man, however the ministry gift imparts of Christ and that is precious, and maturing.
i dont see it as a limit . there are any different types ministers. but he chose the foolishness' of preaching For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.. not all preaching is by God called man in the pulpit . preaching can come through a bible teacher being a witness or even in song. yes HE did give gifts but i have seen some worship the gift. not the giver of the gift. . thing about the Body of Christ is its very unique . we have the Pentecostal charismatic movement. the slaying in the spirit the tongues . we have the reversed baptist i have a bro n law great guy good Christian man. i dont think i have ever heard him say amen in church. but he has filled in the pulpit for the preacher. . so i dont see a limit other than what man uses with rules