What Was Finished at the Cross?

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I would say that Brother Abdicate is probably referring to the fact to what Jesus said....

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Of course there will be millions who will be saved, but if we look at it from a percentage of all who could be saved, it will be few.

Perhaps we should look at it in a different light and we have much work cut out for us. To me this scripture is just saying some will find His way and walk it BUT if we get out and do our part and bring in a harvest beyond what most imagine then those numbers of those who do not find their way in will be much smaller. The fields are ready but where are the harvesters?
Blessings

 

[Abdicate]

@Fish Catcher Jim I'm not a traditionalist on this nor dogmatic about it. The scriptures are clear about your walk with God being important. I'm not saying only "adult" Christians will be raptured, only those found faithful based mostly on these two verses:

Luke 18:8 (KJV)

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?​

Luke 21:36 (KJV)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

But also these warnings from the Lord:

John 14:15 (KJV)

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

John 15:10 (KJV)

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

As another thread spoke about this, it's not that a Christian sins that keeps them always from blessings, but having a lifestyle of sin that strains the relationship with the Lord God is the problem. I also witness many that call themselves "Christian" but you couldn't identify them in a crowd of lost souls. Many call themselves "Christian" because they are not Jewish or Muslim but live like the world. Sin must be dealt with. God doesn't want behavioral modification; He wants a heart transformation. Either we as Christians have power over sin or we don't, 2 Peter 2:14-15.

Then I'm just a man, Praise God He is the Judge and He'll decide rightly. Praise God!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

@Fish Catcher Jim I'm not a traditionalist on this nor dogmatic about it. The scriptures are clear about your walk with God being important. I'm not saying only "adult" Christians will be raptured, only those found faithful based mostly on these two verses:

Luke 18:8 (KJV)

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?​

Luke 21:36 (KJV)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

But also these warnings from the Lord:

John 14:15 (KJV)

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

John 15:10 (KJV)

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

As another thread spoke about this, it's not that a Christian sins that keeps them always from blessings, but having a lifestyle of sin that strains the relationship with the Lord God is the problem. I also witness many that call themselves "Christian" but you couldn't identify them in a crowd of lost souls. Many call themselves "Christian" because they are not Jewish or Muslim but live like the world. Sin must be dealt with. God doesn't want behavioral modification; He wants a heart transformation. Either we as Christians have power over sin or we don't, 2 Peter 2:14-15.

Then I'm just a man, Praise God He is the Judge and He'll decide rightly. Praise God!

I agree Abdicate for the world is full of people claiming to be Christians and would not know Jesus from the singer from nickleback . lol
Blessings

 

[Peter Luke]

I don't understand the statement "Believing is not enough"According to the apostle Paul it was enough. I understand your thoughts on living the life but the life is Christ. There is no other life for the believer, no home life, no church life, no worklife, no religious life, no lifestyle of good or bad but life is in the Son. Christ in you is the pleasing of the Father, knowing who we are and living by the life in us is the Christian life, Christ is the only life of the believer. We think we have a life of our own but we don't, Gal. 2:20. We can spend a lifetime trying to straighten out that old life that doesn't even exist to God.

Hello Noblemen.
Believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, repentance of sins, and baptism, will save the soul. However, every soul must pass through final judgement of flames that will leave whatever truth the soul contains. Christ is the way of living the truth, and the true way of life, without doing so we cannot come to the Father.
I rather come to God and Jesus Christ with a soul as much truth (True works) as possible.
Even satan and demons believes in Jesus Christ, but I do not think they have any soul left to save.

 

[Noblemen]

In that case, there are very few "born again believers". Most folks I know spend most of their time and effort on wordly things.
By and large, all that religious talk is just that, talk. There is no substance behind it.
Over the years I've met quite a few of the "holy brigade". Other than their rhetoric, their lives were not functionally different from the average atheist. They commit sin with just as much ease and enthusiasm.
They have a saying in India "empty vessels make the most noise".

You're judging the outer man, And most have not heard thefinal gospel, They have no idea Christ lives in them it makes all the difference read Paul.

 

[Noblemen]

Here's a great study on this very subject (1 of 5 short videos)

Very good good down to earth teaching, insightful.

 

[Noblemen]

Hello Noblemen.
Believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, repentance of sins, and baptism, will save the soul. However, every soul must pass through final judgement of flames that will leave whatever truth the soul contains. Christ is the way of living the truth, and the true way of life, without doing so we cannot come to the Father.
I rather come to God and Jesus Christ with a soul as much truth (True works) as possible.
Even satan and demons believes in Jesus Christ, but I do not think they have any soul left to

I have to disagree, Paul babtized a few but would not baptise anymore because it takes away from the pure message of grace intrusted to Paul.

Also a sinner needs to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, believers are the only ones that can repent.

The saving of the soul or renewing of the mind is an on going process. The born-again are joined to Christ, 1st Cor. 6:17. Christ is our salvation.

 

[Siloam]

By grace, we are saved, but we are then raised to service.

We are not to glorify ourselves, but we are not to hide our light under a basket.

There are many things that we can do 'behind the scenes' (away from the sight of others, I sort food for the hungry); but there are also things we can do that are seen (I deal directly with people that have had and are going through medical issues). Those around us should know why we freely choose to do those things so that they can see our Lord doing them through our hands.

It is not a matter of being saved. It is not even a matter of proving our faith before others. It is bearing witness to our Lord.

 

[Peter Luke]

Hello Nobleman.
I am sorry that I cannot understand your disagreement with post#24. Your response says that you disagree, but your reply does not contradict/disagree with what I posted. I did not say a Christian is not saved, but the question is how much of the soul is saved. Unless you believe..
1/ the whole soul is saved regardless if it is tarnished with falsehoods, or ...
2/ that the soul is not to be judged for its truths.

1 Cor 3:13-15 (NIV)
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of a man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss, he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

By grace, we are saved, but we are then raised to service.

We are not to glorify ourselves, but we are not to hide our light under a basket.

There are many things that we can do 'behind the scenes' (away from the sight of others, I sort food for the hungry); but there are also things we can do that are seen (I deal directly with people that have had and are going through medical issues). Those around us should know why we freely choose to do those things so that they can see our Lord doing them through our hands.

It is not a matter of being saved. It is not even a matter of proving our faith before others. It is bearing witness to our Lord.

Like Jesus said........if nothing else believe of the deeds that I do.

 

[Noblemen]

Hello Nobleman.
I am sorry that I cannot understand your disagreement with post#24. Your response says that you disagree, but your reply does not contradict/disagree with what I posted. I did not say a Christian is not saved, but the question is how much of the soul is saved. Unless you believe..
1/ the whole soul is saved regardless if it is tarnished with falsehoods, or ...
2/ that the soul is not to be judged for its truths.

1 Cor 3:13-15 (NIV)
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of a man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss, he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Yes I see now, I did miss read your quote"my apologies I'm not really one for disagreeing much anyway But I read something into it that wasn't there so there is no disagreement. Thank you for Handling it the way you did.
Blessing Mike

 

[Glomung]

No, faith without works is not dead. Paul argument in Romans 4 was that Abraham was justified by faith alone in Gen 15:6 right after receiving the promise and believing it, prior to him acting on it. Was Abraham's faith dead, according to James, all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22 when he offered Isaac? Was James right that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22, or was Paul correct that Gen 15:6 was fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6 when Abraham believed God apart from works?

The confusion is the result of including James in the Bible when it shouldn't have been included. Thus Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation says concerning James, "I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.In the first place itis flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."

If you want to throw away James, why not the rest of the New Testament as well? It was all compiled and approved by the same councils.
lazy faith is an important enough issue that Jesus had a parable about that alone. The parable of the Talents.
Far too many people think that their belief alone makes them worthy, there is not a single soul in Hell that does not believe.
You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Noblemen]

No, faith without works is not dead. Paul argument in Romans 4 was that Abraham was justified by faith alone in Gen 15:6 right after receiving the promise and believing it, prior to him acting on it. Was Abraham's faith dead, according to James, all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22 when he offered Isaac? Was James right that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22, or was Paul correct that Gen 15:6 was fulfilled right then in Gen 15:6 when Abraham believed God apart from works?

The confusion is the result of including James in the Bible when it shouldn't have been included. Thus Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation says concerning James, "I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.In the first place itis flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works 2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); Though in Romans 4:22-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Although it would be possible to "save" the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses' words in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This fault proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."

Yes, and Paul also used Romans 4 to show that as much faith as Abraham had it could not rid him of the sin nature, (it took the cross). Romans seven is loaded.

 

[Glomung]

Doctrinal teachings in the New Testament should be solely that of Jesus and his apostles. James was not authorized by Jesus Christ, nor his brother Jude. They are not apostles. Both James and Jude do not have divine authorization to be in the New Testament.

As for your idea that faith alone is not sufficient to save, Paul says the following.

Rom 4:
2 if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

So you're saying you disagree with the APOSTLE Paul, and opt for the gospel of the non-Apostle James.

I get a real kick out of how you folks just "make it up" as you go along and bring non issues into the discussion as if they were real.
Whatever James had to say is just as valid is anything Paul had to say. If you find problems with reconciling the two it is due to YOUR lack of understanding, not theirs.

 

[Big Moose]

I get a real kick out of how you folks just "make it up" as you go along and bring non issues into the discussion as if they were real.
Whatever James had to say is just as valid is anything Paul had to say. If you find problems with reconciling the two it is due to YOUR lack of understanding, not theirs.

"how you folks just "make it up" as you go along"??????? Really? You may want to reconsider that statement.
That the devil and his minions "believe" or "know" who Jesus is , is very different from the person who "believes in Jesus", as in trusts in, agrees with, and admits that they need Him as Lord of their life.
It is a lacking of our language of the word "believe".

The thief on the cross who believed had zero works to justify his faith, and yet Jesus took him to paradise with Him. As Paul was inspired, Abraham was justified by his belief in God, not his works.

As to James, we can accept his inspiration of "faith without works is dead" through Jesus' description of a "good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bears bad fruit". The talents parable is a poor comparison in that, faith is not analogous of the talents. The talents in the parable were things that were entrusted to the servants, given each according to their abilities. It was a trial to show if they had faith. The one who did nothing with the talent but hide it, showed he had fear, not faith. He actually made the talent lose value, for he did not even earn interest for his lord. Had he at least earned the interest on the talent, he would have been acceptable to enter his lord's rest. That would be the same as no works, for there is no work involved in receiving the interest.
So even in the talents parable, it shows that just believing and trusting in the Lord is enough, works are not the justifier of the faith. Works just show the faith. If you have true faith in Christ, you will have at least some good works. Having good works does not mean you have faith.
God knows the heart and if we trust in Him. That was enough for Noah, Abraham, Samuel, David, etc. All had the favor of God without the works.

 

[Big Moose]

One thing to add, Saul, later Paul, was chosen even though he had no faith in Christ. God knew his heart, that when Christ would make Himself known to Saul, that he would be the perfect choice to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. Saul had not earned anything to be chosen. But as soon as he was presented with the Truth, he was a changed man.

 

[Siloam]

You know, I don't think ANYONE here has said that it is not being saved by grace through faith. I don't think anyone has said that works are required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This things about works are

1. Given the fact that we, as believers, have received this precious gift, how should we then live?
2. By being His servants and doing the tasks He sets before us, we are edified, made ready for more difficult tasks as we are faithful in small ones.

If you want to quibble awhile about whether 'belief' is enough for salvation, it really depends on what that belief is in, and whether that belief is at the level of the soul recognizing our own sinful nature and believing in the shed blood of our Lord as payment.

We use shortcut terms like belief and faith, but by belief, we must mean belief in Christ's death for our sins. Not just for sins in general, but our own personal sin. By faith, we mean faith in God, supplied by God.

 

[Noblemen]

"how you folks just "make it up" as you go along"??????? Really? You may want to reconsider that statement.
That the devil and his minions "believe" or "know" who Jesus is , is very different from the person who "believes in Jesus", as in trusts in, agrees with, and admits that they need Him as Lord of their life.
It is a lacking of our language of the word "believe".

The thief on the cross who believed had zero works to justify his faith, and yet Jesus took him to paradise with Him. As Paul was inspired, Abraham was justified by his belief in God, not his works.

As to James, we can accept his inspiration of "faith without works is dead" through Jesus' description of a "good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bears bad fruit". The talents parable is a poor comparison in that, faith is not analogous of the talents. The talents in the parable were things that were entrusted to the servants, given each according to their abilities. It was a trial to show if they had faith. The one who did nothing with the talent but hide it, showed he had fear, not faith. He actually made the talent lose value, for he did not even earn interest for his lord. Had he at least earned the interest on the talent, he would have been acceptable to enter his lord's rest. That would be the same as no works, for there is no work involved in receiving the interest.
So even in the talents parable, it shows that just believing and trusting in the Lord is enough, works are not the justifier of the faith. Works just show the faith. If you have true faith in Christ, you will have at least some good works. Having good works does not mean you have faith.
God knows the heart and if we trust in Him. That was enough for Noah, Abraham, Samuel, David, etc. All had the favor of God without the works.

A few have had a few interesting remarks about James. I had best leave that alone.

 

[Noblemen]

You know, I don't think ANYONE here has said that it is not being saved by grace through faith. I don't think anyone has said that works are required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This things about works are

1. Given the fact that we, as believers, have received this precious gift, how should we then live?
2. By being His servants and doing the tasks He sets before us, we are edified, made ready for more difficult tasks as we are faithful in small ones.

If you want to quibble awhile about whether 'belief' is enough for salvation, it really depends on what that belief is in, and whether that belief is at the level of the soul recognizing our own sinful nature and believing in the shed blood of our Lord as payment.

We use shortcut terms like belief and faith, but by belief, we must mean belief in Christ's death for our sins. Not just for sins in general, but our own personal sin. By faith, we mean faith in God, supplied by God.

I agree with you, But I do see the sin nature being dealt with at the cross. I don't believe we are sinless, I do believe we have a new nature, 2nd Peter 1:4, and our sin now comes from my our unrenewed mind given to the body or flesh

 

[Penion]

I agree with you, But I do see the sin nature being dealt with at the cross. I don't believe we are sinless, I do believe we have a new nature, 2nd Peter 1:4, and our sin now comes from my our unrenewed mind given to the body or flesh

I am new here. I have a thought to share. In Romans 7, Paul, a converted man, says he does not do the good he should do but does the thing he hates. I believe we are like Paul, have a sinful nature, and will battle with it until Glory. Does this go against what you are saying?