What Was Finished at the Cross?

[Peter Luke]

Cosmicwaffle.
So people are born evil, and have no choice. They are doomed right from the beginning to end.
What you are saying is that if my father and/or my mother were evil, and doomed for destruction, that I was born from evil, and I am also doomed?
I have a history of alcoholism, drug addiction, and other evil lifestyles. Was I doomed, from beginning to end, as well?
If so, then what's the point of me repenting, and loving God and Jesus.
What's the point in me forgiving my parents for their ignorance, if God was going to destroy them anyway?
Do not my prayers and forgiveness of those that trespassed against me of no use?
If they are of no use, I might as well fear God as oppose to loving God, and unforgive my parents and anyone who has sinned against me.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Cosmicwaffle.
So people are born evil, and have no choice. They are doomed right from the beginning to end.
What you are saying is that if my father and/or my mother were evil, and doomed for destruction, that I was born from evil, and I am also doomed?
I have a history of alcoholism, drug addiction, and other evil lifestyles. Was I doomed, from beginning to end, as well?
If so, then what's the point of me repenting, and loving God and Jesus.
What's the point in me forgiving my parents for their ignorance, if God was going to destroy them anyway?
Do not my prayers and forgiveness of those that trespassed against me of no use?
If they are of no use, I might as well fear God as oppose to loving God, and unforgive my parents and anyone who has sinned against me.

You didn't have any choice to be born period. All men are sinful because we are born in Adam, and it isn't until the spirit gives you new life in Christ are you considered righteous in God's eyes. You repent and love Jesus because you are supposed to and because you have the spirit of Truth. Forgive your parents because you were forgiven, and because they may yet be saved.

I am speaking from an eternal point of view, that God before time knew who would be in heaven and who would be in hell. You are obviously not God so you can't act like your choices don't matter.

 

[Peter Luke]

You didn't have any choice to be born period. All men are sinful because we are born in Adam, and it isn't until the spirit gives you new life in Christ are you considered righteous in God's eyes. You repent and love Jesus because you are supposed to and because you have the spirit of Truth. Forgive your parents because you were forgiven, and because they may yet be saved.

I am speaking from an eternal point of view, that God before time knew who would be in heaven and who would be in hell. You are obviously not God so you can't act like your choices don't matter.

I did not know we had no free-will.
That there is no point in desiring to change.
That God did not want his people to love him unconditionally, but under the conditions he has already destined use to be.
Are we nothing but a race of robots.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

I did not know we had no free-will.
That there is no point in desiring to change.
That God did not want his people to love him unconditionally, but under the conditions he has already destined use to be.
Are we nothing but a race of robots.

Robots? No. Sinful human beings? Yes.

Again you keep assuming since God's will is done there is no reason to do anything. Part of God's plan is that we do something and desire change. Does that mean we can overthrow his plan and will? Of course not.

Your idea of free will is that God let's us decide what history will be and that we call the shots. I would not want to live in a universe where our Holy God was not in control. It is the fact that he is in control that should give us comfort.

 

[Big Moose]

So I am saved because I chose to love God? Not because he chose me and loved me first? It's because of my free choice? Not God's? I decide if I go to heaven or hell? I decide to be spiritually born again? I decide if I am written in the Lamb's book of life? I decide if I am one of God's elect, chosen before the foundation of the world? I decide what kind of vessel I will be? I tell the potter what to do? My will supercedes God's will to save me? My choice is the only one that matters?

So I am saved because I chose to love God? Not because he chose me and loved me first? God loved us first, we respond to that love when we see who we really are. We repent and ask Jesus into our heart. Jesus saves.
It's because of my free choice?Not God's?I decide if I go to heaven or hell? I decide to be spiritually born again? I decide if I am written in the Lamb's book of life? Yes, based on your acceptance of God's offer to save you. John 3:16 (whosoever believes)
I decide if I am one of God's elect, chosen before the foundation of the world? I decide what kind of vessel I will be? I tell the potter what to do? God's elect are those he has chosen beforehand to call. These people can and often say no. He has a predestined plan for those He chose. Some don't stay on the plan and it takes them longer to get to where they are destined to be. Others can be won thru the Gospel truth being presented to them. That is why Jesus sends us to spread the Gospel. Otherwise, what point is there spreading the Gospel if the "chosen ones" will be the only ones saved in the end. It then doesn't matter what gets preached, the chosen get saved anyway.
My will supercedes God's will to save me? My choice is the only one that matters? 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
I think "all" means all. How is God's desire thwarted? If not our choice, then what? This question must be answered to understand God's design .

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

So I am saved because I chose to love God? Not because he chose me and loved me first? God loved us first, we respond to that love when we see who we really are. We repent and ask Jesus into our heart. Jesus saves.
It's because of my free choice?Not God's?I decide if I go to heaven or hell? I decide to be spiritually born again? I decide if I am written in the Lamb's book of life? Yes, based on your acceptance of God's offer to save you. John 3:16 (whosoever believes)
I decide if I am one of God's elect, chosen before the foundation of the world? I decide what kind of vessel I will be? I tell the potter what to do? God's elect are those he has chosen beforehand to call. These people can and often say no. He has a predestined plan for those He chose. Some don't stay on the plan and it takes them longer to get to where they are destined to be. Others can be won thru the Gospel truth being presented to them. That is why Jesus sends us to spread the Gospel. Otherwise, what point is there spreading the Gospel if the "chosen ones" will be the only ones saved in the end. It then doesn't matter what gets preached, the chosen get saved anyway.
My will supercedes God's will to save me? My choice is the only one that matters? 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
I think "all" means all. How is God's desire thwarted? If not our choice, then what? This question must be answered to understand God's design .

God's elect most certainly have the inward calling of the Holy Spirit, but your definition of election says they can say no to that calling.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭28-30‬ NIV)

Our definitions of calling must be different, because everyone who is called is also justified and glorified with Christ.

The point of my post was to show you how man-centered salvation becomes when we believe our free-will instead of God's free-grace is what determines salvation.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Amen, but sometimes our flesh gets in the way of a pefect understanding, and certain concepts need to be explained or worked out. I am just passionate about theology because it causes me to worship God more fully, as we worship him in spirit and truth concerning who he is.

Just knowing Him makes me want to worship and praise Him. Know what I mean ?
Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Proverbs27v17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
Hopefully, brother sharpens brother!
Without a doubt, the best teacher is the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately our human intellect can blockade our understanding or willingness to hear Him whisper to us. That's why listening and discussing scripture with others is so valuable in challenging and exposing any errors in our belief systems.
For any discussion to produce value, there is one provisor, and that is to conduct it with respect to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with that and yet there seems to be something missing from this. You need to make sure you are not allowing tomuch chaff to enter into your thinking along the way.

 

[Penion]

God's elect most certainly have the inward calling of the Holy Spirit, but your definition of election says they can say no to that calling.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭28-30‬ NIV)
Our definitions of calling must be different, because everyone who is called is also justified and glorified with Christ.
The point of my post was to show you how man-centered salvation becomes when we believe our free-will instead of God's free-grace is what determines salvation.

Cosmicwaffle,

This whole issue leads to friends becoming enemies. I saw it happen on another forum. I'm not sure why the MODERATORS are not doing what they ought to close this discussion as it is. I regret I made FRANCIS DRAKE an enemy. I really enjoy the people here!

Now, to get back on topic.

Christ finished, or completed, all of the prophecies about him in the OT. Our Savior is unique! The God-Man was powerful, and at the same time gentle.

 

[ModeratorTeam]

We remind to members that this is one of the topics prohibited: "Predestination, Calvinism or Arminianism - or any variations". You may discuss these topics in PM but not in open forum.

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[Abdicate]

So I am saved because I chose to love God? Not because he chose me and loved me first? It's because of my free choice? Not God's? I decide if I go to heaven or hell? I decide to be spiritually born again? I decide if I am written in the Lamb's book of life? I decide if I am one of God's elect, chosen before the foundation of the world? I decide what kind of vessel I will be? I tell the potter what to do? My will supercedes God's will to save me? My choice is the only one that matters?

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJV)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Abdicate]

And we are done...