What would Judas do?

[rtm3039]

Someone else would have done what God knew Judas was going to do.

Major,

I am in full agreement. Jesus made no attempt to conceal his identity. I am not even sure Judas was needed. If the order was to arrest Him, anyone that knew who He was would have accomplished the task.

I think that Judas was allowed to do this, more as a teaching point than a necessity.

rtm3039

 

[Rand Sutor]

Ok, here is another question: Jesus’s crucifixion was purposeful. In other words, it was by design. So, if this is the case (and I know it is), did Judas really have a choice? Would not his betrayal also be by design? Granted, I suspect Jesus would have confronted these soldiers, even if Judas had not identified him, but is there a possibility that Judas’ actions were required to fulfill the prophecy?

Yes, I know he was a thief and sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, but maybe that was by design as well?

I guess I just to not know.

rtm3039

Ok, here is another question: Jesus’s crucifixion was purposeful. In other words, it was by design. So, if this is the case (and I know it is), did Judas really have a choice? Would not his betrayal also be by design? Granted, I suspect Jesus would have confronted these soldiers, even if Judas had not identified him, but is there a possibility that Judas’ actions were required to fulfill the prophecy?

Yes, I know he was a thief and sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, but maybe that was by design as well?

I guess I just to not know.

rtm3039

Jesus said "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of
him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been
better for that man had he not been born." Judas was not forced by God into his actions, but God did have foreknowledge of Judas's betrayal of Christ. And if Satan had not been able to work through Judas, he would have continued working through the Pharisees who would have gotten Him some other way. They hated Jesus because He was interfering with there way of life.



They were milking the people through taxes that were beyond the establishment of God's Law. Their tax laws were man made and also a great burden to God's people. The Pharisees lived fair and sumptious lives and saw God's people as sinners, but not themselves. When their Messiah came on the scene their hearts were full of wilfull and abundant sins against God's people, and even worse, pride, which is what kept them from humbling themselves before Christ in front of the people. They had lived contrary to their heart, (the promptings of God and His Law), all their lives. (Guard your heart with all diligence . . .)



The self righteous Pharisees did not see themselves as sinners and many of them were not about to humble themselves before this preacher/teacher Who, as far as they were concerned, didn't have a license (so to speak) to teach God's people this new "Way" which they themselves could not see (or would not) because of the their hardened hearts which is what kept them from seeing the truth. They exalted themselves over the people for years, and now the people were being exalted over the Pharisees by God, because of the people's humility before God. Those of the Sanhedrin would even say "Show us a sign." when Jesus was doing signs all around them. They wanted to believe but were not willing to humble themselves, surrendering their hearts and lives to God in submission. However, God's mercy is open to all and the Word tells us in Acts 6:7 " . . . and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith." Glory to God for His mercy on us all!



Just as Jesus chose Judas as one of His twelve, so God chose Saul of old (1 Sam. 8:7-22) to lead His people because he was the best man for the job at the time, and would have continued to be so, if he had humbled himself before God and walked in His ways. God always calls us to a position that is higher than we ourselves can handle so that He can work with us in our calling, making us joint heirs with the one Who is Heir of all things. As Paul said "Not me but Christ in me."

 

[Major]

It does not take years to master understanding the bible. It only requires to stop rewording it. We have the example of people making up this or that theory about how God sees time and then trying to form something about destiny or preordained events. The bible simply does not say what they say it says.

You really start to learn things when you stop reciting stuff that somebody told you the bible says. People tell you that Judas was a traitor. The bible does not say any such thing. People talk about the "gift" of discernment and the bible does not mention any such thing. There is a manifestation of the holy spirit called "discerning of spirits" and it is given to every man (and woman, I presume). People say "spare the rod and spoil the child" and the bible does not say that, and besides those people don't have a rod, and besides that they don't even know what a rod is.

Your only defense is to learn the business yourself, you and your bible and your God. When you don't understand something, write it down and put the paper in a safe place. When God sends understanding then you can retire the paper. That might take some time, and during that time you will learn to understand about the fullness of time.

I know that you think you are saying all the right things and I for one have no desire to argue with you so please do not take it that I am confronting your right to say what you think.

You actually make those who have studied the Scriptures out to be frauds and have wasted their time so I really can not agree with your opinion.
I say that with all due respect to your and your right to say what you believe. That same right applies to the rest of as well.

Yes, many people propose their own thoughts about Scriptures and they are called by the Bible itself as "False Prophets".
Jim Jones was one. David Koresh was one. There has been thousands just like them.

But that does not apply to ALL people my brother. People have made things say what they want them to say since Adaam and Eve.

But you said the Bible does not say that Judas was a traitor.

But Matthew 27:3-4 actually does say ...............
"When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood".

Now I agree that the Scriptures do not use the ACTUAL word TRAITOR, but what do YOU personally think the word "BETRAYED" means?

In Alabama A traitor commits treason, against his/her country or group or cause.
I would say betrayer is not a very common word, but it would mean someone who betrays. You can betray your lover by sleeping with someone else, you can betray a friend by telling their secret, and a traitor can be also said to have betrayed his or her country OR His best friend.

So clearly, if we consider that God has given us a brain to consider things and we see a man has "BETRAYED" his friends, he is certainly considered a TRAITOR so in fact the Bible DOES claim that Judas was a traitor.


You then said...……...………..
"People talk about the "gift" of discernment and the bible does not mention any such thing."

But when we read the words of the Scriptures, that is exactly what we do fine.

Hosea 14:9..............
"Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; Whoever is discerning, let him know them For the ways of the LORD are right, And the righteous will walk in them, But transgressors will stumble in them."

Proverbs 15:21...........
"Folly is joy to him who lacks sense, But a man of understanding walks straight."

Psalms 119:66...……..
"Teach me good discernment and knowledge, For I believe in Your commandments."

You said and I quote...….........
"There is a manifestation of the holy spirit called "discerning of spirits" and it is given to every man (and woman, I presume)."

However, all those Scriptures was written a long time before the Holy Spirit came to live in the hearts of men and bestow gifts upon us.
So I would say that the Bible actually does say to us that we can be gifted with discernment as there are even more Scriptures in the New Test that tell us to "BE NOT DECEIVED".


Then you said...…......…...
"People say "spare the rod and spoil the child" and the bible does not say that, and besides those people don't have a rod, and besides that they don't even know what a rod is."

What does the Bible then actually say???????

Proverbs 13:24..............
"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

Proverbs 23:13-14..............
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die. Punish them with the rod and save them from death.

You are correct in that the actual words of "Spare the rod and spoil the child" are not what the Bible says. Where did the phrase come from??????????

“Spare the rod and spoil the child” – Samuel Butler, 17th Century Poet!!!!

Now, gifted with a "Discerning Spirit" and good "Common Sense", and the ability to fight DECEPTION can we agree that the phrase in question was inspired from the Bible verse in Proverbs 13:24, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”

Do ya think that perhaps Samuel Butler was just concisely paraphrasing the meaning of what the Bible actually said.

It seems to me that you are cherry picking words and phrases to adapt to your own agenda that as you stated......……..
"It does not take years to master understanding the bible. It only requires to stop rewording it."


But isn't that exactly what you have just tried to do my brother????

 

[Lanolin]

Studying scriputre is never a waste of time.
You learn more over the years and God is always showing you new things just keep at it.

Major I think Saul is saying people reword the Bible and your above post is just pulling inferences and rewording what the Bible says...you are putting it into your own words. So you are doing the same thing.

Saul is just looking at the words, the scripture of the Bible itself.

Going back to Judas. He was remorseful, but it seems he didnt stick around to ask forgiveness or wait until the resurrection. And I suppose that the thing, we might be remorseful, but thats a different thing from being repentant.
If Judas was repentant, he wouldnt have killed himself. He would have owned up to his wrong and taken whatever punishment or sentence. He might actually have been forgiven, but he killed himself before there was a chance to. Its one thing to admit to a crime, another to ask forgivness for it. This Judas didnt do.

Peter, though he also denied Jesus could be said to be a traitor, but the difference is he was forgiven. What if Peter had said Yes I know Jesus and hes not guilty, would it have made a difference. We dont know but we do know Peter denied Jesus when asked and he was a key witness.

When Jesus resurrected it was Peter who asked was it I who betrayed you...see even he thought he could have done it. Everyone was thinking maybe it could have been them.

The way this played out is do you think Judas was aware that his infoming the Pharisees was directly related to Jesus being condemned or killed. judas may have been led to think, by the Pharisees that his informing was not actually going to get Jesus killed. He might have thought he was doing God a favour. Because he made a deal with them right. Turn Jesus in.

This is a bit of specuation on my part but only because his reaction to finding out Jesus was condemned was not hooray I got rid of him...but remorse. It would be the Pharisees/council rejoicing over Jesus death.

 

[Major]

Studying scriputre is never a waste of time.
You learn more over the years and God is always showing you new things just keep at it.

Major I think Saul is saying people reword the Bible and your above post is just pulling inferences and rewording what the Bible says...you are putting it into your own words. So you are doing the same thing.

Saul is just looking at the words, the scripture of the Bible itself.

Going back to Judas. He was remorseful, but it seems he didnt stick around to ask forgiveness or wait until the resurrection. And I suppose that the thing, we might be remorseful, but thats a different thing from being repentant.
If Judas was repentant, he wouldnt have killed himself. He would have owned up to his wrong and taken whatever punishment or sentence. He might actually have been forgiven, but he killed himself before there was a chance to. Its one thing to admit to a crime, another to ask forgivness for it. This Judas didnt do.

Peter, though he also denied Jesus could be said to be a traitor, but the difference is he was forgiven. What if Peter had said Yes I know Jesus and hes not guilty, would it have made a difference. We dont know but we do know Peter denied Jesus when asked and he was a key witness.

When Jesus resurrected it was Peter who asked was it I who betrayed you...see even he thought he could have done it. Everyone was thinking maybe it could have been them.

The way this played out is do you think Judas was aware that his infoming the Pharisees was directly related to Jesus being condemned or killed. judas may have been led to think, by the Pharisees that his informing was not actually going to get Jesus killed. He might have thought he was doing God a favour. Because he made a deal with them right. Turn Jesus in.

This is a bit of specuation on my part but only because his reaction to finding out Jesus was condemned was not hooray I got rid of him...but remorse. It would be the Pharisees/council rejoicing over Jesus death.

Studying scriputre is never a waste of time.
You learn more over the years and God is always showing you new things just keep at it.

Major I think Saul is saying people reword the Bible and your above post is just pulling inferences and rewording what the Bible says...you are putting it into your own words. So you are doing the same thing.

Saul is just looking at the words, the scripture of the Bible itself.

Going back to Judas. He was remorseful, but it seems he didnt stick around to ask forgiveness or wait until the resurrection. And I suppose that the thing, we might be remorseful, but thats a different thing from being repentant.
If Judas was repentant, he wouldnt have killed himself. He would have owned up to his wrong and taken whatever punishment or sentence. He might actually have been forgiven, but he killed himself before there was a chance to. Its one thing to admit to a crime, another to ask forgivness for it. This Judas didnt do.

Peter, though he also denied Jesus could be said to be a traitor, but the difference is he was forgiven. What if Peter had said Yes I know Jesus and hes not guilty, would it have made a difference. We dont know but we do know Peter denied Jesus when asked and he was a key witness.

When Jesus resurrected it was Peter who asked was it I who betrayed you...see even he thought he could have done it. Everyone was thinking maybe it could have been them.

The way this played out is do you think Judas was aware that his infoming the Pharisees was directly related to Jesus being condemned or killed. judas may have been led to think, by the Pharisees that his informing was not actually going to get Jesus killed. He might have thought he was doing God a favour. Because he made a deal with them right. Turn Jesus in.

This is a bit of specuation on my part but only because his reaction to finding out Jesus was condemned was not hooray I got rid of him...but remorse. It would be the Pharisees/council rejoicing over Jesus death.

You are welcome to your opinion, NO my dear I did not do that at all.

What I posted is exactly what our brother in fact did say which was...…......….

But you said the "Bible does not say that Judas was a traitor. "

I then stated:

But Matthew 27:3-4 actually does say ...............
"When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood".

IF you are of the opinion that "I have betrayed innocent blood" does not make one a traitor then I suggest you look it up in a dictionary. Let me help you....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/traitor

"A traitor says one thing but does another. If you promise a friend you'll keep his secret, but instead you blab it to everyone, you're a traitor."

The word origin says it all: traditorem is the Latin word for "betrayer." Liar? Yes. Backstabber? Yes. True friend? Heavens, no. Traitors betray the trust of those who have faith in them or believe their promises. Traitor also applies to a person who betrays his country by committing treason: turning against his own government, perhaps by selling secret information.

The actual WORD does not have to be in the Bible for it to be correctly understood my dear sister. We learn very important things and doctrines through "IMPLICATION".

An example would be ; TRINITY!

Is WORD in the Bible???? NO it is not. But it is IMPLIED all through the Bible.

Another example is: BIBLE!
Is the WORD Bible in the Bible? NO it is not.

 

[QuintessenceOfDust]

Someone else would have done what God knew Judas was going to do.

That actually doesn't address the true question. It is conjecture and attempts to think on behalf of God. God chose Judas. So God got it wrong? Judas helped Jesus fulfill his mission and Jesus knew he was about that when he let him leave the upper room, told him to go and do what he must do, and some believe God damned Judas to Hell for it.
That's the issue . The question was, how otherwise would Jesus have fulfilled that mission except for Judas?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

 

[Lanolin]

That actually doesn't address the true question. It is conjecture and attempts to think on behalf of God. God chose Judas. So God got it wrong? Judas helped Jesus fulfill his mission and Jesus knew he was about that when he let him leave the upper room, told him to go and do what he must do, and some believe God damned Judas to Hell for it.
That's the issue . The question was, how otherwise would Jesus have fulfilled that mission except for Judas?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Wasnt it satan that entered Judas. Not God.

 

[Lanolin]

You are welcome to your opinion, NO my dear I did not do that at all.

What I posted is exactly what our brother in fact did say which was...…......….

But you said the "Bible does not say that Judas was a traitor. "

I then stated:

But Matthew 27:3-4 actually does say ...............
"When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood".

IF you are of the opinion that "I have betrayed innocent blood" does not make one a traitor then I suggest you look it up in a dictionary. Let me help you....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/traitor

"A traitor says one thing but does another. If you promise a friend you'll keep his secret, but instead you blab it to everyone, you're a traitor."

The word origin says it all: traditorem is the Latin word for "betrayer." Liar? Yes. Backstabber? Yes. True friend? Heavens, no. Traitors betray the trust of those who have faith in them or believe their promises. Traitor also applies to a person who betrays his country by committing treason: turning against his own government, perhaps by selling secret information.

The actual WORD does not have to be in the Bible for it to be correctly understood my dear sister. We learn very important things and doctrines through "IMPLICATION".

An example would be ; TRINITY!

Is WORD in the Bible???? NO it is not. But it is IMPLIED all through the Bible.

Another example is: BIBLE!
Is the WORD Bible in the Bible? NO it is not.

You not arguing with me I agree with you im just saying what Saul says so you should actually argue that with him not me.

He might not know how to use a thesaurus, that betrayal means being a traitor. Or that scripture means Bible or that these three agree in one is what people describe as trinity.

Some people are very literal in their interpetation and have quite a limited vocabulary. They want to stick with strictly what the Bible says only. I would suggest its very helpful to use a dictionary and if they still get confused over words try to find what the greek or hebrew root words are since theres so many english language versions.

 

[Major]

You not arguing with me I agree with you im just saying what Saul says so you should actually argue that with him not me.

He might not know how to use a thesaurus, that betrayal means being a traitor. Or that scripture means Bible or that these three agree in one is what people describe as trinity.

Some people are very literal in their interpetation and have quite a limited vocabulary. They want to stick with strictly what the Bible says only. I would suggest its very helpful to use a dictionary and if they still get confused over words try to find what the greek or hebrew root words are since theres so many english language versions.

I am not argueing with anyone!!!!! My respoce was to him and he did not respond to me.

I have no idea why you got into the conversation at all. I respond to Sauls comment and you answered in post #44 it seems for him.

But since you are, I am saying again that there is more to understanding the Bible than just having a Bible in front of you.

Education in Christian seminaries allows one to grow in knowledge from others who have put in the work so as to allow us proper understanding.

I am a believer in "Sola Scriptura" but even that does not take every single word as LITERAL. The Bible itself tells us what is literal and what is not.

 

[Major]

That actually doesn't address the true question. It is conjecture and attempts to think on behalf of God. God chose Judas. So God got it wrong? Judas helped Jesus fulfill his mission and Jesus knew he was about that when he let him leave the upper room, told him to go and do what he must do, and some believe God damned Judas to Hell for it.
That's the issue . The question was, how otherwise would Jesus have fulfilled that mission except for Judas?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

I agree. All I meant is that someone else would have done what was needed to be done. There was no question in Gods mind or mine that Judas would not do what he did.

 

[Lanolin]

I am not argueing with anyone!!!!! My respoce was to him and he did not respond to me.

I have no idea why you got into the conversation at all. I respond to Sauls comment and you answered in post #44 it seems for him.

But since you are, I am saying again that there is more to understanding the Bible than just having a Bible in front of you.

Education in Christian seminaries allows one to grow in knowledge from others who have put in the work so as to allow us proper understanding.

I am a believer in "Sola Scriptura" but even that does not take every single word as LITERAL. The Bible itself tells us what is literal and what is not.

Sorry major.
Yes there is a bit more to understanding the Bible and thats to ask our God for help in understanding.
yes If God wants you to be educated He may send you to a school and provide oppotrunities to learn so you can also teach others. Paul spent 14 years learning scripture, he had to basically unlearn everything he thought he know from the Pharisees and do it Gods way.

Jesus was teaching in the temple when he was 12 years old and astonishing the much older people around him. But thats because he was going about His fathers business and learning from Him directly.

When his disciples didnt understand something, he explained it to them.
He opened up scriptures.

When the eunuch couldnt understand the scripture in Isaiah, he asked Phillip to help him. When some of the new believers got things wrong or didnt fully understand, Pricsila and aquila explained it more perfectly. Dont be afraid to ask for help! If you want wisdom God will give it to you liberally hes not going to keep you in the dark. But you must ask for it.

 

[QuintessenceOfDust]

Wasnt it satan that entered Judas. Not God.

There are two verses. John 13:27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”
And Luke 22:1-7
The Plot to Kill Jesus
1. Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people.
Judas to Betray Jesus
3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. 4 He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.
The Passover with the Disciples
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

The feast here of unleavened bread was when the passover lamb would later be killed in usual Jewish observance of Passover.

Odd that it would be thought Satan helped Judas to insure Jesus accomplished his mission to save the worlds people from sin.

 

[aha]

God chose Judas. So God got it wrong?

I think there is something wrong on that statement “God chose Judas. So God got it wrong?”

Or I may be wrong how the intention of that statement... Does is it in conflict with the concept of Freewill?

I like this post# 29 of Major, item no. 5
Prophecy is a witnessing or foreseeing, not a prediction. That means, it already happened by the time it is told. A prophet is someone who sees through the eyes of God (or, simply someone who hears or talks to God).

that is: Prophecy is witnessing: it does not mean one is chosen to act that part.

I think, how I understand, that is the same thing that is being questioned by Lanolin’s post#47

 

[QuintessenceOfDust]

I think there is something wrong on that statement “God chose Judas. So God got it wrong?”

Or I may be wrong how the intention of that statement... Does is it in conflict with the concept of Freewill?

I like this post# 29 of Major, item no. 5
Prophecy is a witnessing or foreseeing, not a prediction. That means, it already happened by the time it is told. A prophet is someone who sees through the eyes of God (or, simply someone who hears or talks to God).

that is: Prophecy is witnessing: it does not mean one is chosen to act that part.

I think, how I understand, that is the same thing that is being questioned by Lanolin’s post#47

Prophecy is not witnessing. Prophecy is a foretelling communicated to a prophet from the divine holy spirit. Which is the case of Judas predestined to act according to God's will.

Zechariah 11 CJB;NASB - Open your doors, L’vanon, so that - Bible Gateway

Open your doors, L’vanon, so that fire can consume your cedars. Wail, cypress, because the cedar has fallen, those splendid trees are ruined. Wail,

www.biblegateway.com

Otherwise, imagine this scenario. Judas did not identify Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane so that Jesus could be taken into custody by the temple guard.
Instead, Judas received the unleavened bread in the upper room , passover, and the Disciples and Jesus remained together and continued the ministry across the lands.
How would Jesus have accomplished the mission for which he was born?

God predestines everything by his will and according to his divine plan.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,but its every decision is from the Lord.

If we think we have free will, when actually we have free choice, but that too is in the providence of God, then we discount what God said of himself and his powers. God is God. How can we think we have a will that is beyond his control or providence?
We cannot come to Salvation unless God calls us.
John 6:44:

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

There is no thing that is not of God.
Isaiah 45
Verse 7:
I form light, I create darkness;
I make well-being, I create woe;
I, Adonai, do all these things.

 

[rtm3039]

I think there is something wrong on that statement “God chose Judas. So God got it wrong?”

Or I may be wrong how the intention of that statement... Does is it in conflict with the concept of Freewill?

I like this post# 29 of Major, item no. 5
Prophecy is a witnessing or foreseeing, not a prediction. That means, it already happened by the time it is told. A prophet is someone who sees through the eyes of God (or, simply someone who hears or talks to God).

that is: Prophecy is witnessing: it does not mean one is chosen to act that part.

I think, how I understand, that is the same thing that is being questioned by Lanolin’s post#47

aha,

It is questions like this that make me wish I had paid more attention to the movie; Back to the future.

Yes, Jesus selected Judas as one of his 12; however, it is Judas that decided to betray him. Yes, this was known to Jesus, but there is always the question of free will. I am still a bit confused my Major's comments about Prophecy.

It is possible to change the course of one's actions. If so, the Prophecy would reflect those changes. If they do not, like in the case of Judas, it just chose the aftermath of his own free will.

Obviously, God knows how each of our stories end. As we go through point A through Z, we are constantly faced with decisions. Each decision takes us to a new route. Throughout this, God continues to knock on the doors of those that really need to here it and open the door. In some cases, God knocks to hard that the hinges on the door just come off and that will really get your attention (as it did me). God guides us towards the right path, but we make the decision to take it, or not. I think?

I came across a similar comment on another site. The ending remark was: "So did Jesus choose a traitor knowingly? Absolutely, from a long time back. He knew that Judas was precisely the sort of man who would push Him toward the cross. And so, in selecting him as a disciple, He helped arrange His own death – for our sake."

Reference:

https://biblemesh.com/blog/q-if-god...his-disciples-if-he-knew-he-would-betray-him/

rtm3039

 

[rtm3039]

Prophecy is not witnessing. Prophecy is a foretelling communicated to a prophet from the divine holy spirit. Which is the case of Judas predestined to act according to God's will.

Zechariah 11 CJB;NASB - Open your doors, L’vanon, so that - Bible Gateway

Open your doors, L’vanon, so that fire can consume your cedars. Wail, cypress, because the cedar has fallen, those splendid trees are ruined. Wail,

www.biblegateway.com

Otherwise, imagine this scenario. Judas did not identify Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane so that Jesus could be taken into custody by the temple guard.
Instead, Judas received the unleavened bread in the upper room , passover, and the Disciples and Jesus remained together and continued the ministry across the lands.
How would Jesus have accomplished the mission for which he was born?

God predestines everything by his will and according to his divine plan.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,but its every decision is from the Lord.

If we think we have free will, when actually we have free choice, but that too is in the providence of God, then we discount what God said of himself and his powers. God is God. How can we think we have a will that is beyond his control or providence?
We cannot come to Salvation unless God calls us.
John 6:44:





There is no thing that is not of God.
Isaiah 45
Verse 7:
I form light, I create darkness;
I make well-being, I create woe;
I, Adonai, do all these things.

So, QuintessenceOfDust, is it your position that Judas had no choice in his actions?

To me, I'd like better language about why Judas did this.

rtm3039

 

[QuintessenceOfDust]

So, QuintessenceOfDust, is it your position that Judas had no choice in his actions?

To me, I'd like better language about why Judas did this.

rtm3039

Better language than God's word?
OK, Judas did what he did because God predestined him to do it.
Without Judas Jesus would have not died on the cross.
There is no question about that. Though there will likely be that which attempts to argue that point. To which it can be pre-determined and rebutted with, if that were a fact God wouldn't have chosen Judas to do what he did.

Judas did it! It is historic fact in Christian history.
Satan didn't compel Judas. The idea in scripture, that Satan entered in, isn't God saying this. It is the observation and account of that one which witnessed the event,. And remembering that the gospel authors are anonymous.
It is easily rebutted that observation Satan compelled Judas. Satan compelling Judas to betray Jesus so that Jesus could die on the cross and save humanity from Satan is ridiculous.

 

[rtm3039]

Better language than God's word?
OK, Judas did what he did because God predestined him to do it.
Without Judas Jesus would have not died on the cross.
There is no question about that. Though there will likely be that which attempts to argue that point. To which it can be pre-determined and rebutted with, if that were a fact God wouldn't have chosen Judas to do what he did.

Judas did it! It is historic fact in Christian history.
Satan didn't compel Judas. The idea in scripture, that Satan entered in, isn't God saying this. It is the observation and account of that one which witnessed the event,. And remembering that the gospel authors are anonymous.
It is easily rebutted that observation Satan compelled Judas. Satan compelling Judas to betray Jesus so that Jesus could die on the cross and save humanity from Satan is ridiculous.

Ok. let's walk this back a little. Yes, Judas did this and I, in no way, would argue that he did not. My questions goes more into Judas' motive(s). I've read some articles that indicate the possibility that Judas wanted Jesus to remove Rome from power in Israel and that Judas did this in hopes of "forcing" Jesus into fighting back against Rome.

The Bible clearly shows us the WHAT, but there probably is no way of learning the WHY part. At the end of the day, it probably does not matter, as he did what he did and that is a fact.

rtm3039

 

[Lanolin]

Ok. let's walk this back a little. Yes, Judas did this and I, in no way, would argue that he did not. My questions goes more into Judas' motive(s). I've read some articles that indicate the possibility that Judas wanted Jesus to remove Rome from power in Israel and that Judas did this in hopes of "forcing" Jesus into fighting back against Rome.

The Bible clearly shows us the WHAT, but there probably is no way of learning the WHY part. At the end of the day, it probably does not matter, as he did what he did and that is a fact.

rtm3039

I think it was money. If Judas hadnt been paid off, maybe he wouldnt have done it.
Anyway when he realised what he did, he threw the money away he couldnt keep it. Right? And thm the pharisees bought a field to bury him in cos he hanged himself. People say 30 pieces of silver isnt much but it must have been a lot to buy some land.

 

[rtm3039]

I think it was money. If Judas hadnt been paid off, maybe he wouldnt have done it.
Anyway when he realised what he did, he threw the money away he couldnt keep it. Right? And thm the pharisees bought a field to bury him in cos he hanged himself. People say 30 pieces of silver isnt much but it must have been a lot to buy some land.

Lanolin, I've read that it amounted to about 15 ounces of silver. Here is what I have found:

30 pieces of silver are about 5 weeks money (based on a 6 day working week.) In terms of purchasing power, each silver piece was probably worth about $20. The standards of living being much lower than in modern (Western) societies. So the thirty pieces are worth about $600.