What would Judas do?

[AtomicSnowflake]

Ok, here is another question: Jesus’s crucifixion was purposeful. In other words, it was by design. So, if this is the case (and I know it is), did Judas really have a choice? Would not his betrayal also be by design? Granted, I suspect Jesus would have confronted these soldiers, even if Judas had not identified him, but is there a possibility that Judas’ actions were required to fulfill the prophecy?

Yes, I know he was a thief and sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, but maybe that was by design as well?

I guess I just to not know.

rtm3039

Just something else to ponder in relation to this question...
If we go through and study all the parables, teachings, sayings of Jesus...
And keep in mind that Judas was included as 1 of the 12...
Would that give us a bit deeper insight into any of this?

And from the perspective of the other 11, he also served as a living, breathing, walking, personal example of these teachings.. ?

 

[rtm3039]

Just something else to ponder in relation to this question...
If we go through and study all the parables, teachings, sayings of Jesus...
And keep in mind that Judas was included as 1 of the 12...
Would that give us a bit deeper insight into any of this?

And from the perspective of the other 11, he also served as a living, breathing, walking, personal example of these teachings.. ?

AtomicSnowflake,

Yes, real world experiences make the best teaching points.

rtm3039

 

[aha]

God predestines everything by his will and according to his divine plan.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,but its every decision is from the Lord.

If we think we have free will, when actually we have free choice, but that too is in the providence of God, then we discount what God said of himself and his powers. God is God. How can we think we have a will that is beyond his control or providence?
We cannot come to Salvation unless God calls us.

Obviously, God knows how each of our stories end. As we go through point A through Z, we are constantly faced with decisions. Each decision takes us to a new route. Throughout this, God continues to knock on the doors of those that really need to here it and open the door. In some cases, God knocks to hard that the hinges on the door just come off and that will really get your attention (as it did me). God guides us towards the right path, but we make the decision to take it, or not. I think?

Thanks for the clarification and the related verses.

I think we are in agreement.

Or at since am the one who raised for clarification on how the word “chose” was used: at least I think now I got what it is trying to convey and it is in agreement in my set of principles, ie: Christian Principles as I see it as a Bible student

Man is 100% accountable for his actions. Romans 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Jesus Christ have Freewill and He is the greatest example of submitting it to God. Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Peter has freewill or if I may: Free Choice even he is foretold he will say “No” on something Peter is very confident he will say “Yes”.

Matthew 26:34-35 "Truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.

 

[Major]

Actually Lanolin, I kind of disagree with your comment. In is easy to know what the Bible "says," but another to understand what it means. That, I assume, takes years to master. This is so, because some passages require knowing where else in the Bible the same comment is made, but using different language.

rtm3039

Correct.

Example:
Exodus 20:13 says...…………..
"Thou shalt not KILL".

That is what it says and it is fairly easy to grasp that. However is that what it actually means???????

NO!

The literal Hebrew word here for "KILL" is the word "RATSACH". It is a technical word which actually means "MURDER".

So then if a man just read the verse he comes away with his opinion that God does not want us to kill anyone. That ultimately can and has lead people to use this verse to condemn Capital punishment and to say that they can not go to war for their country because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill".

But that is not the case. The Bible actually says "Thou shalt not MURDER".

That makes this a personal command and not a national command. It was not given to the Nation of Israel but to the individual person. The Hebrew word has the meaning of ANGER, PREMEDITATION AND REVENGE.

God demanded the nation of Israel use capital punishment in order to protect the human life from someone who would take human life.

Ex. 21:12 says...……….
"He that smiteth a man so that he does, shall surely be put to death".

As for not fighting in a war for your country, the 6th Commandment has nothing to do with War or being a soldier.

What I am saying is that many, many things in the Bible can not be learned by simply reading the verses of Scripture. We must dig in, study and do the work needed to learn the deeper meaning of those Scriptures.

Jesus Himself learned. One of the only things we know of His childhood is that in Luke 2:52...……….
He “grew in wisdom” as He grew “in stature".

That is, the Son of God voluntarily put Himself in a position where He needed to assimilate knowledge as a man. Education was part of the process.

 

[Major]

Just something else to ponder in relation to this question...
If we go through and study all the parables, teachings, sayings of Jesus...
And keep in mind that Judas was included as 1 of the 12...
Would that give us a bit deeper insight into any of this?

And from the perspective of the other 11, he also served as a living, breathing, walking, personal example of these teachings.. ?

No argument from me. I would only ask, how many men have you known in your lifetime with the name of "JUDAS"?

Does that tell us something?

 

[rtm3039]

Correct.

Example:
Exodus 20:13 says...…………..
"Thou shalt not KILL".

That is what it says and it is fairly easy to grasp that. However is that what it actually means???????

NO!

The literal Hebrew word here for "KILL" is the word "RATSACH". It is a technical word which actually means "MURDER".

So then if a man just read the verse he comes away with his opinion that God does not want us to kill anyone. That ultimately can and has lead people to use this verse to condemn Capital punishment and to say that they can not go to war for their country because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill".

But that is not the case. The Bible actually says "Thou shalt not MURDER".

That makes this a personal command and not a national command. It was not given to the Nation of Israel but to the individual person. The Hebrew word has the meaning of ANGER, PREMEDITATION AND REVENGE.

God demanded the nation of Israel use capital punishment in order to protect the human life from someone who would take human life.

Ex. 21:12 says...……….
"He that smiteth a man so that he does, shall surely be put to death".

As for not fighting in a war for your country, the 6th Commandment has nothing to do with War or being a soldier.

What I am saying is that many, many things in the Bible can not be learned by simply reading the verses of Scripture. We must dig in, study and do the work needed to learn the deeper meaning of those Scriptures.

Jesus Himself learned. One of the only things we know of His childhood is that in Luke 2:52...……….
He “grew in wisdom” as He grew “in stature".

That is, the Son of God voluntarily put Himself in a position where He needed to assimilate knowledge as a man. Education was part of the process.

Yes, this is a fantastic example.

Gracias Sir.

 

[Lanolin]

Correct.

Example:
Exodus 20:13 says...…………..
"Thou shalt not KILL".

That is what it says and it is fairly easy to grasp that. However is that what it actually means???????

NO!

The literal Hebrew word here for "KILL" is the word "RATSACH". It is a technical word which actually means "MURDER".

So then if a man just read the verse he comes away with his opinion that God does not want us to kill anyone. That ultimately can and has lead people to use this verse to condemn Capital punishment and to say that they can not go to war for their country because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill".

But that is not the case. The Bible actually says "Thou shalt not MURDER".

That makes this a personal command and not a national command. It was not given to the Nation of Israel but to the individual person. The Hebrew word has the meaning of ANGER, PREMEDITATION AND REVENGE.

God demanded the nation of Israel use capital punishment in order to protect the human life from someone who would take human life.

Ex. 21:12 says...……….
"He that smiteth a man so that he does, shall surely be put to death".

As for not fighting in a war for your country, the 6th Commandment has nothing to do with War or being a soldier.

What I am saying is that many, many things in the Bible can not be learned by simply reading the verses of Scripture. We must dig in, study and do the work needed to learn the deeper meaning of those Scriptures.

Jesus Himself learned. One of the only things we know of His childhood is that in Luke 2:52...……….
He “grew in wisdom” as He grew “in stature".

That is, the Son of God voluntarily put Himself in a position where He needed to assimilate knowledge as a man. Education was part of the process.

You continue twisitng what the bible says by claiming it says something else.
You need to read the whole Bible, to see the meaning God gave.

As for some people using the verse to get out of being in the military, well thats their own conscience. Many in the army go into defend, and rescue not to kill and destroy.

Also many may go in the army, and actually get trained to murder people. Why because they want to avenge themselves on their so called enemy. Why did the US go and napalm Vietnam? What did Vietnam do to america that they would go and kill their people? And destroy their land? Today there are so many orphans in vietnam due to that silly war.

Lets look at the new testament, when the disiciples were asking Jesus can God send fire down from heaven and kill their enemies. All the ones who were against Israel. Jesus admonished them and said they did not know what spirit they were speaking of. He also said to love their enemies and do good to them. You dont love your enemies by killing them off.

Why didnt Jesus say oh sure disciples I'll get God to do that.
Or...stop following me start making weapons and killing all your enemies in the flesh. That will work. No he didnt.

 

[rtm3039]

You continue twisitng what the bible says by claiming it says something else.
You need to read the whole Bible, to see the meaning God gave.

As for some people using the verse to get out of being in the military, well thats their own conscience. Many in the army go into defend, and rescue not to kill and destroy.

Also many may go in the army, and actually get trained to murder people. Why because they want to avenge themselves on their so called enemy. Why did the US go and napalm Vietnam? What did Vietnam do to america that they would go and kill their people? And destroy their land? Today there are so many orphans in vietnam due to that silly war.

Lets look at the new testament, when the disiciples were asking Jesus can God send fire down from heaven and kill their enemies. All the ones who were against Israel. Jesus admonished them and said they did not know what spirit they were speaking of. He also said to love their enemies and do good to them. You dont love your enemies by killing them off.

Why didnt Jesus say oh sure disciples I'll get God to do that.
Or...stop following me start making weapons and killing all your enemies in the flesh. That will work. No he didnt.

Lanolin

Exodus 20:13 does say "You shall not murder." (NIV) and there is a difference between murder and killing.

Oh my. . . . so many comments to make, so little time....

I did 25 years in the military (US Army). Back prior to Desert Storm, we had many people claim Conscientious Objection as a reason for not wanting to go into combat. Personally, they all should have been locked up right there and then. When you enlist in the military, regardless of what occupation you select, you will always first me a combat multiplier (i.e. basic training is about fighting and advance training is about your selected occupation.). Enlisting in the military and not expecting to eventually go into combat is like being a lifeguard and hoping never to get wet.

"Also many may go in the army, and actually get trained to murder people..." Really? I can't even find the words to respond to this. I guess that technically, taking a like with pre-meditation (Malice aforethought) can me considered "murder," however, in a combat situation, it is more like self defense.

Ok, I am a bit too young to have been in Vietnam and I appreciate the fact that it was not a popular conflict (was not actually a war, technically). The US entered the conflict to stop communism from taking over the country (did not work very well). However, we did not go there to "napalm" anything. Napalm was used, mostly because of the vegetation.

Note sure killing in war is a violation of anything, as long as your reasons for entering the conflict are righteous (to stop bad people from doing bad things)

"The Lord is a warrior; the Lord is his name." (Exodus 15:3 (NIV))

"But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior; so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced; their dishonor will never be forgotten." (Jeremiah 20:11 (NIV))

Ok, it is worth noting that I am not all that familiar with this subject (well, I am with the Army stuff). So, I again reserve the right to be wrong through learning more.

rtm3039

 

[Major]

Lanolin

Exodus 20:13 does say "You shall not murder." (NIV) and there is a difference between murder and killing.

Oh my. . . . so many comments to make, so little time....

I did 25 years in the military (US Army). Back prior to Desert Storm, we had many people claim Conscientious Objection as a reason for not wanting to go into combat. Personally, they all should have been locked up right there and then. When you enlist in the military, regardless of what occupation you select, you will always first me a combat multiplier (i.e. basic training is about fighting and advance training is about your selected occupation.). Enlisting in the military and not expecting to eventually go into combat is like being a lifeguard and hoping never to get wet.

"Also many may go in the army, and actually get trained to murder people..." Really? I can't even find the words to respond to this. I guess that technically, taking a like with pre-meditation (Malice aforethought) can me considered "murder," however, in a combat situation, it is more like self defense.

Ok, I am a bit too young to have been in Vietnam and I appreciate the fact that it was not a popular conflict (was not actually a war, technically). The US entered the conflict to stop communism from taking over the country (did not work very well). However, we did not go there to "napalm" anything. Napalm was used, mostly because of the vegetation.

Note sure killing in war is a violation of anything, as long as your reasons for entering the conflict are righteous (to stop bad people from doing bad things)

"The Lord is a warrior; the Lord is his name." (Exodus 15:3 (NIV))

"But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior; so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced; their dishonor will never be forgotten." (Jeremiah 20:11 (NIV))

Ok, it is worth noting that I am not all that familiar with this subject (well, I am with the Army stuff). So, I again reserve the right to be wrong through learning more.

rtm3039

You are correct and right on target and I thank you for your service. I am a Vietnam era veteran but you did 25 years! BRAVO my brother.
It was very popular to be a conscientious objector in those days as most in the Army were drafted.

Killing in war is not a violation of God's Command!

By choosing to identify with Israel, God was bound to take sides when the nation, or God’s purposes through it, were threatened or opposed.
The Old Testament testifies that God was deeply involved in all these wars, on one side or the other. Entering human experience cost God something. The God who commanded “thou shalt not kill” could not avoid directing others to kill on a massive scale. As a life-destroying rather than life- sustaining activity, war cannot be affirmed as good. Yet God both promotes and participates in war throughout the pages of the Old Testament.

When anyone fails to understand that, it tells me that that do not have any Bible understanding at all and there comments are then questionable about the Bible.

As I said and it seems that some are unable to read those posts and grasp that "Thou Shalt not Murder" IS THE ACTUAL LITERAL HEBREW WORDS of the 6th Commandment.

Not only that but Law enforcement is ready to put their lives on the line in order to save lives. If that means killing someone who is taking lives, they will do it and that is not MURDER!

God supports this idea even in the Old Testament: Kill in order to prevent other killings was god's plan and command for Captital punishment.
God has sovereignly placed them (Police) in our society so that we might lead peaceable lives and have the freedom and safety of sharing the Gospel.

The Apostle Paul wanted the Christian Romans to know that “he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4).

 

[rtm3039]

You are correct and right on target and I thank you for your service. I am a Vietnam era veteran but you did 25 years! BRAVO my brother.
It was very popular to be a conscientious objector in those days as most in the Army were drafted.

Killing in war is not a violation of God's Command!

By choosing to identify with Israel, God was bound to take sides when the nation, or God’s purposes through it, were threatened or opposed.
The Old Testament testifies that God was deeply involved in all these wars, on one side or the other. Entering human experience cost God something. The God who commanded “thou shalt not kill” could not avoid directing others to kill on a massive scale. As a life-destroying rather than life- sustaining activity, war cannot be affirmed as good. Yet God both promotes and participates in war throughout the pages of the Old Testament.

When anyone fails to understand that, it tells me that that do not have any Bible understanding at all and there comments are then questionable about the Bible.

As I said and it seems that some are unable to read those posts and grasp that "Thou Shalt not Murder" IS THE ACTUAL LITERAL HEBREW WORDS of the 6th Commandment.

Not only that but Law enforcement is ready to put their lives on the line in order to save lives. If that means killing someone who is taking lives, they will do it and that is not MURDER!

God supports this idea even in the Old Testament: Kill in order to prevent other killings was god's plan and command for Captital punishment.
God has sovereignly placed them (Police) in our society so that we might lead peaceable lives and have the freedom and safety of sharing the Gospel.

The Apostle Paul wanted the Christian Romans to know that “he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4).

Major,

I recall, when I first enlisted in the military, attending my first prayer breakfast. I did find it odd that a chaplain would find himself in the position of advocating war and praying that one side (our side) prevailed. For the most part, our involvement in modern war (WWI to present) has been with the intent of stopping evil. Obviously, there is no clearer an example that WWII. Now our current conflicts were, iMHO, closer to revenge, which can also be presented as justice.

I have no issues with combat, as it sometimes is the only option left. I also do not believe killing someone in combat violates the 6th Commandment. We (US) do take prisoners and cannot legally kill someone who does not pose a threat to us.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:21-22 (NIV)). In the, context of war, there should always be mutual respect among soldiers; even those at the opposite side of the battle field.

rtm3039

 

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