Who comes with Jesus at His second coming?

[Marilyn C]

Hi @Major,

I`m glad you see God`s relationship to Israel symbolized as a marriage. However you think that Jesus` relationship to His Body is that too. Let`s look at your scripture you quoted to base this doctrine on. (I realize you may have more scriptures.)

`For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.` (2 Cor. 11: 2)

Here we read that Paul desires to present his disciples in Corinth, to the Lord as pure. He is using the illustration of a `chaste virgin,` to show purity.

It is also Paul`s disciples & not the whole Body of Christ, as Paul does NOT present US to the Lord. It is the Lord Himself who will present us to Himself.

`that He (the Lord) might present it (the Body) to Himself a glorious church,….` (Eph. 5: 27)

Doctrines need to be based on firm teaching of many scriptures & not just an illustration.

Marilyn.

 

[CCW95A]

Hi @CCW95A,

I agree `what the Lord said to them (& us) is very, very specific.` So what did God tell the Old Testament saints & what does He tell the Body of Christ?

Marilyn.

Well.......since we are living under a New Testament, we for sure have "better" promises than what they had, but still, all the promises of God are "received" by faith no matter in what era they are given. There is a timing that is very important for the Lord God, in that he did not want the Old Testament saints to receive what he had promised them without us his Church. When Jesus was raised from the dead he led all the saints who had died to his Kingdom, and at the same time he also raised us up also so that we all at the same time could receive his promises to all his saints. A Kingdom of light where all his children has been gathered together by his Spirit into the very presence of God. We are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ right this very moment.

Heb 11:39.. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40.. since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi @CCW95A

Yes, indeed we are blessed with `better,` promises, I agree with you & we read it in God`s word. So that is something we can heartily agree on bro.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Major]

Hi @Major,

I`m glad you see God`s relationship to Israel symbolized as a marriage. However you think that Jesus` relationship to His Body is that too. Let`s look at your scripture you quoted to base this doctrine on. (I realize you may have more scriptures.)

`For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.` (2 Cor. 11: 2)

Here we read that Paul desires to present his disciples in Corinth, to the Lord as pure. He is using the illustration of a `chaste virgin,` to show purity.

It is also Paul`s disciples & not the whole Body of Christ, as Paul does NOT present US to the Lord. It is the Lord Himself who will present us to Himself.

`that He (the Lord) might present it (the Body) to Himself a glorious church,….` (Eph. 5: 27)

Doctrines need to be based on firm teaching of many scriptures & not just an illustration.

Marilyn.

Marilyn; what I think is irrevelent. It is the Scriptures which tell us what the church is, certainly not what I think.

Ephesians 5:24.....
"For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church and He is the Saviour of the body".

It is the Holy Spirit of God, not Paul's disciples who uses the husband and wife to show the spiritual picture of the New Testament church. The church is subject to the doctrines of Jesus Christ and not the dogmas and traditions of men.

 

[Major]

Hi @CCW95A,

I agree `what the Lord said to them (& us) is very, very specific.` So what did God tell the Old Testament saints & what does He tell the Body of Christ?

Marilyn.

God dealt with man in different ways in different times.

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

 

[Major]

Hi @CCW95A, & @Major,

So glad we agree that it is by faith…… as I quoted previously –

`By faith Abel…..` & ` David….who through faith……` (Heb. 11: 4 & 33)

We, the Body of Christ believe by faith that Jesus is our righteousness.

`…you are in Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God - & righteousness…` (1 Cor: 1: 30)

However the Old Testament saints did not have that privilege of `believing in faith that Jesus is their righteousness.` They were never told that or understood that, thus they could not have faith for it. So then what did they have faith for?

The Old Testament saints had faith in God that he would make them righteous as he promised them. When they obeyed specifically what God said to them then God accounted it to them as righteousness.

`Then He (the Lord) brought him (Abraham) outside & said, “Look now towards heaven, & count the stars if you are able to number them” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, & He (the Lord) accounted it to him for righteousness.` (Gen. 15: 5)

Yes, it is because we believe, have faith in God, BUT the difference is WHAT we believe for, what has God told us, & what had God told them to have faith for.


Marilyn.

Marilyn, Much of Romans and Galatians addresses the fact that there is only one way of salvation and only one gospel message. Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation.

But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord as told to them Isaiah 53. Those who exercised such faith were saved on CREDIT looking forward.

Today we look back on the life, death and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins by faith so that we are in fact saved on CREDIT looking backwards. The one and only thing that ties that bond is FAITH.

 

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Hebrews 12 tells us that the Body of Christ (the dead in Christ - their spirits) are in the General Assembly along with the `just men` (& women of the OT).

You have come to Mount Zion & .....to the General Assembly & Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Marilyn.

Hello @Marilyn C,
I have read through this thread with interest, and agree with your position in regard to the question posed in the OP - (quote) 'So, who is coming with Christ to make war?'.

However I do not believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ is the subject of Hebrews 12:22,23.

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
(Heb 12:22,23)

The letters written from prison by Paul (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) tell quite a different story: and as these are the letters written by Paul following the revelation given to Him by God concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, then they should be consulted on this matter.

Hebrews 12:22,23 concern quite another company.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Major]

Hello @Marilyn C,
I have read through this thread with interest, and agree with your position in regard to the question posed in the OP - (quote) 'So, who is coming with Christ to make war?'.

However I do not believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ is the subject of Hebrews 12:22,23.

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
(Heb 12:22,23)

The letters written from prison by Paul (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) tell quite a different story: and as these are the letters written by Paul following the revelation given to Him by God concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, then they should be consulted on this matter.

Hebrews 12:22,23 concern quite another company.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Who then is the subject of the Hebrews 12 passage?

 

[Complete]

Who then is the subject of the Hebrews 12 passage?

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
(Heb 12:22,23)

Hello @Major,

'This church (assembly) is the church of the firstborn, a special company, those who did not despise their birthright, nor barter it away for a morsel of meat. This same company is referred to as: 'The spirits of just men made perfect', each expression having been used in the context of chapters 11 & 12. In 12:9 we read of 'The Father of spirits'; in chapter eleven 'the righteous' are in view (10:38; 11:4,7,8), and in 11:40 it is the perfecting: 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be perfected.'

The close association of the 'better thing', the 'better country' and 'the better resurrection' with this perfecting shows that here in Hebrews 12 we are taken to that time when this church of the firstborn shall be complete and enter into its inheritance and become the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Here Abraham will set foot in that city for which he looked; Moses will receive that reward unto which he had respect; all who believed, yet died, not having received the promise, will enter into their birthright. The mediator is not Moses, neither is the blood the blood of bulls and goats: 'Jesus' is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and this blood of sprinkling speaks better things than that of Abel.'

The notes above I have quoted from a book I have on the book of Hebrews, which says it so much better than I could. - http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/Perfection or Perdition.PDF,

Thank you, Major,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CCW95A]

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
(Heb 12:22,23)

Hello @Major,

'This church (assembly) is the church of the firstborn, a special company, those who did not despise their birthright, nor barter it away for a morsel of meat. This same company is referred to as: 'The spirits of just men made perfect', each expression having been used in the context of chapters 11 & 12. In 12:9 we read of 'The Father of spirits'; in chapter eleven 'the righteous' are in view (10:38; 11:4,7,8), and in 11:40 it is the perfecting: 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be perfected.'

The close association of the 'better thing', the 'better country' and 'the better resurrection' with this perfecting shows that here in Hebrews 12 we are taken to that time when this church of the firstborn shall be complete and enter into its inheritance and become the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Here Abraham will set foot in that city for which he looked; Moses will receive that reward unto which he had respect; all who believed, yet died, not having received the promise, will enter into their birthright. The mediator is not Moses, neither is the blood the blood of bulls and goats: 'Jesus' is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and this blood of sprinkling speaks better things than that of Abel.'

The notes above I have quoted from a book I have on the book of Hebrews, which says it so much better than I could. - http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/Perfection or Perdition.PDF,

Thank you, Major,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Is this not already "past tense" and not some future event that will happen someday? It says "We have come to mt Zion... Where is the believer translated to when saved. Would this not be called the Kingdom of his dear Son? Is not our "citizenship" already there. Is not Moses, and Abraham already there? Are we not already there if we are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ? The "spirits of just men made perfect" would be all of the body of Christ who have not yet received their supernatural bodies, which would be every body.

 

[Major]

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ... '
(Heb 12:22,23)

Hello @Major,

'This church (assembly) is the church of the firstborn, a special company, those who did not despise their birthright, nor barter it away for a morsel of meat. This same company is referred to as: 'The spirits of just men made perfect', each expression having been used in the context of chapters 11 & 12. In 12:9 we read of 'The Father of spirits'; in chapter eleven 'the righteous' are in view (10:38; 11:4,7,8), and in 11:40 it is the perfecting: 'God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be perfected.'

The close association of the 'better thing', the 'better country' and 'the better resurrection' with this perfecting shows that here in Hebrews 12 we are taken to that time when this church of the firstborn shall be complete and enter into its inheritance and become the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Here Abraham will set foot in that city for which he looked; Moses will receive that reward unto which he had respect; all who believed, yet died, not having received the promise, will enter into their birthright. The mediator is not Moses, neither is the blood the blood of bulls and goats: 'Jesus' is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and this blood of sprinkling speaks better things than that of Abel.'

The notes above I have quoted from a book I have on the book of Hebrews, which says it so much better than I could. - http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/Perfection or Perdition.PDF,

Thank you, Major,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

"City of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem". This city is not part of the Old Covenant Chris, nor is it of this present earth. It is that city which Abraham looked to but never saw as stated in Hebrews 11:16. It is the New Jerusalem we see in Rev. 21:2.

I believe that we are described as the church of the first born because of our privileged position with Christ who is the "First born" according to Col.1:15 & 18.

There is a 3rd group listed in verses 22-24 and one of them involves "the spirits of just men made perfect". Since they are SPIRITS they are those who have died but as of yet not resurrected. Since they are just men made perfect, it seems to me that this group is the Old Test. saints who could not be made perfect before Christ's time (11:40), but now they have been made perfect through His one sacrifice.

Thoughts on this??????

 

[Complete]

Is this not already "past tense" and not some future event that will happen someday? It says "We have come to mt Zion... Where is the believer translated to when saved. Would this not be called the Kingdom of his dear Son? Is not our "citizenship" already there. Is not Moses, and Abraham already there? Are we not already there if we are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ? The "spirits of just men made perfect" would be all of the body of Christ who have not yet received their supernatural bodies, which would be every body.

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ...'
(Heb 12:22)

Hello @CCW95A,

Thank you for responding as you have. I understand what you are saying concerning the tense: but in Hebrews 12:18-21 we have Moses, the mediator of the old covenant, and in 12:22-24 Jesus, the Mediator of the New Covenant, and these two covenants are being contrasted. These believers, Hebrew by birth, familiar with the Old Covenant, are being given a glimpse of the hope that is set before them, in the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, which will come down out of heaven to the earth (Rev.21). That is a future event: yet they have entered it 'by faith', as Abraham before them. They look, as he did for a city, 'which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God' (Heb. 11:10). This city it heavenly in origin, but it will be set up upon the earth.

This has to be a future event, CCW95A, because there is no life apart from resurrection, and the spirits of those just men, are at present, in God's estimation, 'asleep in Christ', awaiting resurrection, they will not be 'perfected' until all who are destined for their calling are also raised. It is then that the Judge of all will be in session, during the millennial reign. That has not begun, it is yet future.

Moses, Abraham, and all with like precious faith, sleep in Christ, awaiting resurrection. There is no life apart from resurrection.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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"City of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem". This city is not part of the Old Covenant Chris, nor is it of this present earth. It is that city which Abraham looked to but never saw as stated in Hebrews 11:16. It is the New Jerusalem we see in Rev. 21:2.

I believe that we are described as the church of the first born because of our privileged position with Christ who is the "First born" according to Col.1:15 & 18.

There is a 3rd group listed in verses 22-24 and one of them involves "the spirits of just men made perfect". Since they are SPIRITS they are those who have died but as of yet not resurrected. Since they are just men made perfect, it seems to me that this group is the Old Test. saints who could not be made perfect before Christ's time (11:40), but now they have been made perfect through His one sacrifice.

Thoughts on this??????

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect, ...'
(Heb 12:22)

Hello @Major,

Thank you for responding once more on this subject. As you say, the Heavenly Jerusalem is yet to come, it is the city which Abraham looked for and is yet to enter, along with all of like precious faith. It is this company which will comprise the Bride of the Lamb.

This glimpse of the joyful hope here 'set before' these Hebrew saints (Heb. 6:18-20), is like that of our Lord Jesus Christ (in Hebrews 12:2) intended to cause them to endure: despising the shame of present circumstances, as He did; Who is now set down at the right hand of the throne of God. He has ' prepared for them a city'. (Heb. 11:16), this they were to 'look to', as those who then suffered, 'without the camp'.

Being 'the Bride of the Lamb', it cannot also be 'the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all'.

* You quote from Colossians 1:15 & 18 Major:-
'Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For by Him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by Him, and for Him:
and He is before all things,
and by Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church:
Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things He might have the preeminence.'
(Col 1:15-18)

This tells us that Christ Jesus, our risen and glorified Lord, is the firstborn of 'every' creature, and that He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. This applies to more than one calling though doesn't it, Major?

Concerning your reference to, 'just men made perfect', look at Heb. 11:39,40:-
' ... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'

Yes I believe you to be right, that Christ's one, all sufficient sacrifice, is the means of the perfecting of those OT saints, as it is for all of us today, regardless of our calling.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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Remember we are the `new man.` `The first man became a living being. The Last Adam became a life-giving spirit......The first man was of the earth, made of dust, the second man is the Lord from heaven. as was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; & as is the heavenly man, so also ARE THOSE WHO ARE HEAVENLY`. (1 Cor. 15: 45 - 49)
------------------------
I`m quoting myself here & will enlarge.

Christ ascended & now has a glorified body, as we all know. This `body` is not mortal flesh, it is glorified. Also it does not have `blood` or breath to pump the blood around. Christ`s spirit is clothed with a substance, a glorified body that can go through dimensions & realms, as we know from scripture, when the ascended Lord stood in the disciples midst, when the doors were closed. (John 20: 26)

We will have a heavenly body, not of flesh from dust, but immortal & incorruptible, that is like the Lord`s, that can go through dimensions.

How utterly awesome. Marilyn.

Hello @Marilyn,

'Utterly awesome'! I agree.

'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.'
(Luke 24:39)

* The resurrection body of Christ our Saviour, was made up of flesh and bones, it was not a disembodied spirit.

'For we are members of His body,
of His flesh, and of His bones.'
(Eph. 5:30)

Praise God!

 

[CCW95A]

This has to be a future event, CCW95A, because there is no life apart from resurrection, and the spirits of those just men, are at present, in God's estimation, 'asleep in Christ',

How can there be no life apart from the resurrection, when the Word of God clearly tells us that when God raised up Jesus from the dead he also raised us up with him? Are we not sitting in Heavenly places in Christ right this second? Are we not suppose to be living as one who is alive from the dead? Sister, if the Bible says we are in Christ and Christ is sitting on the right hand of God, then that is exactly were the body of Christ is. The resurrection has nothing to do with our spirit being raised to life it has to do with receiving in a new supernatural body. This is why it is called the "resurrection" of the "dead". The word "dead" means "corpse" which is the body, not spirit.

 

[Complete]

How can there be no life apart from the resurrection, when the Word of God clearly tells us that when God raised up Jesus from the dead he also raised us up with him? Are we not sitting in Heavenly places in Christ right this second? Are we not suppose to be living as one who is alive from the dead? Sister, if the Bible says we are in Christ and Christ is sitting on the right hand of God, then that is exactly were the body of Christ is. The resurrection has nothing to do with our spirit being raised to life it has to do with receiving in a new supernatural body. This is why it is called the "resurrection" of the "dead". The word "dead" means "corpse" which is the body, not spirit.

Hello CCW95A,

By God's reckoning , we died with Christ, were buried with Him, quickened and raised with Him, ascended with and are seated in Him at God's right hand, awaiting His manifestation in glory, when we too will be manifested there with Him. This is God's reckoning, it is no less a reckoning of faith than ours is, for it still awaits resurrection for it's apprehension.

He also reckons those who have died in Christ to be 'asleep', in Him, awaiting that moment when mortal will put on immortality in resurrection life.

I am able to experience the joy of God's reckoning by faith in anticipation, but not in physical reality, to say that I can would be a lie, for I am very much earth bound still, with a husband, children, and my three score years and ten have not run it's full course yet!!!

Wake up to reality, please, CCW, and praise God for the hope that is ours, which we will enjoy when that day of resurrection comes. We will awake with His likeness and be satisfied.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[crownoflife]

"City of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem". This city is not part of the Old Covenant Chris, nor is it of this present earth. It is that city which Abraham looked to but never saw as stated in Hebrews 11:16. It is the New Jerusalem we see in Rev. 21:2.

I believe that we are described as the church of the first born because of our privileged position with Christ who is the "First born" according to Col.1:15 & 18.

There is a 3rd group listed in verses 22-24 and one of them involves "the spirits of just men made perfect". Since they are SPIRITS they are those who have died but as of yet not resurrected. Since they are just men made perfect, it seems to me that this group is the Old Test. saints who could not be made perfect before Christ's time (11:40), but now they have been made perfect through His one sacrifice.

Thoughts on this??????

and the temple was rent in two, and the graves were opened and.....

 

[Complete]

and the temple was rent in two, and the graves were opened and.....

Hi @crownoflife,

Good to meet you. What are you saying with this?

Chris

 

[Major]

and the temple was rent in two, and the graves were opened and.....

And your point is...............?

 

[Major]

Hi @crownoflife,

Good to meet you. What are you saying with this?

Chris

Amen!