workmx
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Not trolling. I am really interested in how a person convinces themselves that gods exist.
Why Did God Lie?
- Thread starter workmx
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Not trolling. I am really interested in how a person convinces themselves that gods exist.
I have never trusted the honesty of someone claiming there is no God. Even when I was unsaved I believed there was a God. I would think the truth smack all hard in the face simply by looking at our thumb.
Nobody here gives two hoots though about whether or not you believe in God's ''existence''. What we are more concerned about is that you desire to repent and deal with your sin. When you do, we know the one and true God will pay you a visit James 4:8.
I met Him when I got on my knees, so can you. There are simply no excuses.
workmx
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For the umpteenth time, atheists NEVER make the positive claim that gods don't exist.
I have little interest in things like sin, salvation, heaven, hell, gods or anything else that has not met it's burden of proof.
You are contradicting yourself.
1. 'NEVER make the positive claim that gods don't exist' ...because there is reasonable doubt to the contrary = using brains.
2. ''Start by providing evidence that gods exist and we can chat about the other things.'' when as per above there is ample evidence for reasonable doubt to the contrary = not using brains.
See? Keep up with 'using brains'. Or else honesty and motivation comes into question.
1. 'NEVER make the positive claim that gods don't exist' ...because there is reasonable doubt to the contrary = using brains.
2. ''Start by providing evidence that gods exist and we can chat about the other things.'' when as per above there is ample evidence for reasonable doubt to the contrary = not using brains.
See? Keep up with 'using brains'. Or else honesty and motivation comes into question.
workmx
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. Why do atheists 'NEVER make the positive claim that gods don't exist'?
workmx
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Okay.
Here is the super-simple version:
If you claim that something exists, you have to prove it.
It is called the burden of proof.
Christians claim that gods exist.
So you have to provide evidence for your claim.
If you have no evidence, your claim can be simply rejected.
are you trying to change the paradigms you implied ???
page 15 you stated ..
(and the fact that Hitler was voted into power by conservative Christians)
page 16 I responded ..
Hitler was not elected by a majority ..
(meaning a majority of conservative Christians did NOT put Hitler into power as you implied)
I'm more interested in whom you think is a conservative Christian ..
the Majority Protestants who got duped by Hitler's use of Martin Luther on a bid for combining church and state as a single power and the Red Atheist threat of Lenin ???
or the minority Catholics who also was duped by Hitler's lies and broken agreements ???
Wiki responded ..
The "German Christians" were a minority within the Protestant population, numbering one third to one forth of the 40 million Protestants in Germany. With Bishop Müller's efforts and Hitlers support "The German Evangelical Church" was formed and recognized by the state as a legal entity on July 14, 1933, with the aim of melting State, people and Church into one body. Dissenters were silenced by expulsion or violence.
The support of the "German Christian" movement within the churches was opposed by many adherents of traditional Christian teachings.
Martin Niemöller organized the Pastors' Emergency League which was supported by nearly 40 percent of the Evangelical pastors.
They were, however, (as of 1932) in the minority within the Protestant church bodies in Germany. But in 1933, a number of Deutsche Christen left the movement after a November speech by Reinhold Krause that urged, among other things, the rejection of the Old Testament as Jewish superstition.[118] So when Ludwig Müller could not deliver on conforming all Christians to National Socialism, and after some of the "German Christan" rallies and more radical ideas generated a backlash, Hitler's condescending attitudes toward Protestants increased and he lost all interest in Protestant church affairs.
The existence of a Ministry of Church Affairs, instituted in 1935 and headed by Hanns Kerrl, was hardly recognized by ideologists such as Alfred Rosenberg or by other political decision-makers. A relative moderate, Kerrl accused dissident churchmen of failing to appreciate the Nazi doctrine of "Race, blood and soil" and gave the following explanation of the Nazi conception of "Positive Christianity", telling a group of submissive clergy in 1937:
Dr Zoellner and [Catholic Bishop of Munster] Count Galen have tried to make clear to me that Christianity consists in faith in Christ as the son of God. That makes me laugh... No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed... True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially the Fuehrer to a real Christianity... the Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation".
— Hans Kerrl, Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, 1937
Under the Gleichschaltung process, Hitler attempted to create a unified Protestant Reich Church from Germany's 28 existing Protestant churches. The plan failed, and was resisted by the Confessing Church.
Persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany followed the Nazi takeover. Hitler moved quickly to eliminate political catholicism. Amid harassment of the Church, the Reich concordat treaty with the Vatican was signed in 1933, and promised to respect Church autonomy.
Hitler routinely disregarded the Concordat, closing all Catholic institutions whose functions were not strictly religious. Clergy, nuns, and lay leaders were targeted, with thousands of arrests over the ensuing years.
During Hitler's dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed. The same measures were taken in the occupied territories; in French Lorraine, the Nazis forbade religious youth movements, parish meetings, scout meetings, and church assets were taken.
Church schools were closed, and teachers in religious institutes were dismissed. The episcopal seminary was closed, and the SA and SS desecrated churches, religious statutes and pictures. 300 clergy were expelled from the Lorraine region, monks and nuns were deported or forced to renounce their vows.
During the war Alfred Rosenberg formulated a thirty-point program for the National Reich Church, which included:
The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.
William Shirer wrote that "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists.
According to the Goebbels Diaries, Hitler hated Christianity. In an 8 April 1941 entry, Goebbels wrote "He hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."
In Bullock's assessment, though raised a Catholic, Hitler "believed neither in God nor in conscience", retained some regard for the organisational power of Catholicism, but had contempt for its central teachings, which he said, if taken to their conclusion, "would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure".
Bullock wrote: In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.
Writing for Yad Vashem, the historian Michael Phayer wrote that by the latter 1930s, church officials knew that the long term aim of Hitler was the "total elimination of Catholicism and of the Christian religion", but that given the prominence of Christianity in Germany, this was necessarily a long term goal.
According to Bullock, Hitler intended to destroy the influence of the Christian churches in Germany after the war. In his memoirs, Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer recalled that when drafting his plans for the "new Berlin", he consulted Protestant and Catholic authorities, but was "curtly informed" by Hitler's private secretary Martin Bormann that churches were not to receive building sites.
Kershaw wrote that, in Hitler's scheme for the Germanization of Eastern Europe, he made clear that there would be "no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches'.
The prominent Protestant theologian Karl Barth,of the Swiss Reformed, opposed this appropriation of Luther in the German Empire and Nazi Germany, when he stated in 1939 that the writings of Martin Luther were used by the Nazis to glorify the State and state absolutism:"The German people suffer under his error of the relation between law and bible, between secular and spiritual power",[95] in which Luther divided the temporal State from the inward focusing spiritual, thus limiting the ability of the individual or the church to question the actions of the State,[96] which was seen as a God ordained instrument.
The Deutsche Christen factions were united in the goal of establishing a national socialist Protestantism,[104] and abolishing what they considered to be Jewish traditions in Christianity, and some but not all rejected the Old Testament and the teaching of the Apostle Paul. On November 1933, A Protestant mass rally of the Deutsche Christen, which brought together a record 20,000 people, passed three resolutions:
Adolf Hitler is the completion of the Reformation,
Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church
The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures.
The "German Christians" selected Ludwig Müller (1883–1945) as their candidate for Reich bishop in 1933. In response to Hitler's campaigning, two-thirds of those Protestants who voted elected Ludwig Müller, a neo-pagan candidate, to govern the Protestant Churches.
No the place Im thinking of has its own section for atheist I will PM it to you if you want?
"burden of proof" resides on WHOMEVER makes a claim ..
if you say "God does not exist" ..
now the burden of proof rest on you to prove that God does not ..
If you have no evidence, your claim can be simply rejected ..
so I will say this ..
God reveals Himself to ALL who believe in Him, in one way or another ..
Its part of the ad for this site, that comes up on a search ...Seen it the other day when I got kick off ...lol
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Let me remind you again..your not the judge! No one has to "prove" anything to you. If you want to learn and discuss our faith come as you would to someone in respect of that person. If you come demanding that you are the "judge"? Your just going to cause strife and contention.
@ixoye_8
not 'conservative Christians', I meant 'socially conservative Christians'. I didn't know there was a difference and I'm still a little fuzzy as to what the difference is exactly.
He appealed to those who wanted to return to the old ways and whatever....
Look, your wall of text proves nothing and it is mostly irrelevant. Germany were mostly Christian. Hitler did not take power, he was voted in by its people - almost all of whom were Christian.
But so what? Brother Paul already covered this, he just tricked you.
To be fair it was a difficult time for them and Hitler promised them many things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
not 'conservative Christians', I meant 'socially conservative Christians'. I didn't know there was a difference and I'm still a little fuzzy as to what the difference is exactly.
He appealed to those who wanted to return to the old ways and whatever....
Look, your wall of text proves nothing and it is mostly irrelevant. Germany were mostly Christian. Hitler did not take power, he was voted in by its people - almost all of whom were Christian.
But so what? Brother Paul already covered this, he just tricked you.
To be fair it was a difficult time for them and Hitler promised them many things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
workmx
Inactive
To clarify what atheism is - many don't understand that it is just the rejection of the positive claim made by theists about the existence of gods
workmx
Inactive
See - this is the problem. Some don't understand what atheism means and attempt to reverse the burden of proof.
workmx
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Can you post a link to it? I've never seen it.
You are being elusive. We cannot have a rational discussion if you keep it up.
WHY do YOU say that YOU will NEVER 'make the positive claim that gods don't exist'. Just answer the question please.
Post a link?...here is part of how this site advertises itself...
www.christianforumsite.com
An online community oriented bulletin board managed by a conservative Christian staff. Membership is private and restricted to Christian's only.
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