Why The Rapture Must Happen!

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Sep 3, 2009
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Well, to be fair and consistent, I would also have to remove all of the following statements of a similar nature:

"It is painful to see such an effort to substainciate a lack of understanding.

Your understanding, or better said is your lack of understanding Biblical precepts and teaching is simply pitiful..."

"T/C...........I learned a long time ago that when anyone spends as much time to prove an opinion, it is nothing more that a smoke screen to cover up the truth."

"I will not dignify such an ignorant question with a responce."

"T/C......your ignorance of Bible understanding is very disturbing to me. It scares me that someone might actually believe what you say. You are simply wrong!!!!"

"Your knowledge and understanding is appalling and you have my prayers."

"Nope. Once again you error purposefully to fulfill your opinion and agenda."

...And many others. The statements above are also demeaning, condescending, personal in nature, insulting, confrontational, accusatory, and rude. Yes, if I were doing my job, I should be stepping in each time such statements are made. I agree, I have been lax in this and some other threads. I have actually been following this thread and doing nothing. So far, the participants have been generally been taking the sometimes sharp disagreements in stride. Nobody has reported any posts in this thread so far, so it is entirely possible I am the only Mod who is following this thread and consequently the only one accountable for any lack of intervention. I fully accept that accountability and the responsibility for the results of my fully conscious and aware inaction.

So, what is to be done? Should I merely edit out objectionable statements in each post? Delete posts? Close threads? Delete threads? Take the Sister Mary Elephant approach? Appeal to everyone's Christian charity and forbearance? Actually, I haven't carried out the Sister Mary Elephant approach to its conclusion. I have only gotten as far as the "Class...claaaassss....CLAAASSSSSS...." part.
To be consistantly fair, I would say that we should follow the advice and doirection given on this site by "His Many Songs"........

"Starting right now, all discussion threads will be strictly monitored and preemptively closed if the Forum Staff feel such a thread is or will be disruptive to our friendly atmosphere.

I know this will appear to some to be censorship, but let me assure you this is not the case. There are many other sites where such discussions are welcome and encouraged.

Threads which are positive and encouraging to the Body of Christ are always welcome.

I hope you understand my actions.

Please DO NOT air your grievances about this change in open forum. Open a 'conversation' with me and I will be glad to answer your questions. Such threads in open forum will be deleted and the Member warned and/or banned.

I appreciate your comments through proper channels."


If any responce I have given needs to be deleted DO IT! ANY THING I have said was a responce to the negitive things said either to me or to someone else.

IF the original things posted which were rude and attacking the character of another which were not in accordance to the directions of Hismanysongs...............were deleted then nothing would have been said in responce.

To me that would be fair and it would be consistant and we would not be at this point.

But that is just me.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Question: Who was first to tell about the Rapture ?
Howard......some credit a man named John Nelson Darby as the one who popularized the "pre-tribulation" position.

I personally believe that God gave us a clear example/picture/type of the "Catching away in Genesis 5:24 where He took Enoch to heaven without him dieing.

Then again we se the same thing take place in 2 Kings 2:1-12 with Elijah.

So then to me, Calvin is correct that the first person to talk about a "Catching Away" was Moses and then Jerimiah.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Howard......some credit a man named John Nelson Darby as the one who popularized the "pre-tribulation" position.

I personally believe that God gave us a clear example/picture/type of the "Catching away in Genesis 5:24 where He took Enoch to heaven without him dieing.

Then again we se the same thing take place in 2 Kings 2:1-12 with Elijah.

So then to me, Calvin is correct that the first person to talk about a "Catching Away" was Moses and then Jerimiah.

Major,

Explain why Noah had to build an ark and never left the earth? Explain why Lot was simply moved to another city...Explain why Daniel had to go into the lions den and why Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego had to walk through the fire to prove their faith...And also why Jesus says that as in the days of Noah...

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Why does Jesus say He will send His angels to gather out the wicked:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Your rapture theory does not fit what Jesus says will happen when He returns my friend...


The wicked are the ones who will be leaving...

Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


This 'catching away' is for the 'two witnesses at the last trumpet. They will we called up hither:

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Respectfully, T/C
 
Jul 25, 2012
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I know the Rapture is a hot subject - Lets all just remember that no matter when it happens, all Christians are going to spend eternity with Christ. Lets be sure to never let this issue cause anger or bitterness between us and certainly never let it become a stumbling block to unbelievers. :) I love you all!
You are correct that all Christians will spend eternity with Christ..However, some are not truly Christians even though they claim Jesus as their Lord:



Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Without the Holy Spirit, you are not one of His:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him:

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Get the picture yet... A rapture is not going to happen.If you are alive when He returns, you will be allowed in the gate to the city only if you have His Spirit, if not you will be refused at the gate..

Endure to the end my friend!

God Bless, T/C
 
Sep 25, 2012
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Oh man, more fireworks...
Hehehehe...You thinks me lit a fuse do ya ? My question was short and sweet. About as long a comment as I wish to make when it comes to the rapture. (Obviously)

Question: Who was first to tell about the rapture? Answer: Paul
Remember Paul said I have a mystery. No one before Paul had heard about the "rapture" ie "caught up".
No Paul, no rapture. No rapture no flights to cancel. Guess no one asked, "How we gonna get there?"
What will happen to our physical bodies ? Hey Ryan; more fireworks :rolleyes:
 
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Come to think of it...it might be said that Margaret McGuire was the first to tell about the rapture. Read this in a book, The best kept secret (I think). It was a little over 100 years ago. She had wierd dreams and read the bible a lot. She lived in Ireland. Her priest was the first to hear about her dream with Jesus catching up saints. It is an interesting story, supposedly true, ending up introducing the rapture. The answer is still Paul.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major,

Explain why Noah had to build an ark and never left the earth? Explain why Lot was simply moved to another city...Explain why Daniel had to go into the lions den and why Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego had to walk through the fire to prove their faith...And also why Jesus says that as in the days of Noah...

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Why does Jesus say He will send His angels to gather out the wicked:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Your rapture theory does not fit what Jesus says will happen when He returns my friend...


The wicked are the ones who will be leaving...

Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


This 'catching away' is for the 'two witnesses at the last trumpet. They will we called up hither:

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Respectfully, T/C
Well I will be happy to T/C.

You asked....
Explain why Noah had to build an ark and never left the earth?
Genesis 6:8...............
"And Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord".

Noah wasn't just a righteous man, he was the only follower of God left on the earth. The Bible says he was blameless among the people of his time. It also says he walked with God. Living in a society saturated with sin and rebellion against God, Noah was the only man alive that pleased God. It's hard to imagine such unwavering faithfulness in the midst of such godlessness. Over and over again, in the account of Noah's life we read, "Noah did everything just as God commanded." His life of 950 years, exemplified obedience.

Then you asked
" Explain why Lot was simply moved to another city".

Genesis 19:19......
"Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight and thos hast magnified thy mercy which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life".

Mercy indicates that God is faithful to those who are in a covenant relationship with Him.

Then you asked...
Explain why Daniel had to go into the lions den

Daniel 6:13...
"Then they answered and said before the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or the injunction you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.”

Daniel had to go to the lions den because he was faithful to God and kept right on praying 3 times a day.
Then you stated......
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego had to walk through the fire to prove their faith..

Not so!

Daniel 3:15-18
Now if you are ready at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, and you fall down and worship the image which I have made, good! But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?”
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. 18 But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”

Are
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Major... I am sorry, I guess I should have made my point a little clearer. My point was 'Why is it that they did not get removed from the earth in some sort of 'rapture'? Funny thing is, you still answered it correctly!!

You are absolutely right!!!! They had faith to endure. The Lord already knew their faith, they weren't proving it to Him, it was for the rest of us as an example of what kind of faith we should exhibit.

They didn't need a rapture, and neither will we! If we are real Christians, we will endure till the end!

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The rapture is a fable...Those who don't endure will fall away when tried

Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.


and it will prove they were not of us:


1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

During the last days of temptation and tribulation, the real Christians will endure and receive a crown:

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Those who are left at the end will be wise virgins with the Holy Spirit.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.



There is no rapture...That is why Lot and Noah had to remain faithful through all things and they remained while the wicked were removed.

We can do this all day and all night because the Word of God is true and consistent. Please reconsider what you believe about the rapture fable brother, it isn't going to happen that way...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He comes after He has tried His people to see who is for real and who is not...Prepare your heart for that day man, build your 'ark' like Noah did while the rest of the world did their thing. Your 'ark' is the power of Grace...the Holy Spirit. a treasure in your earthen vessel. Get Him in your heart and don't let the cares of this world snuff out your lamp.

In Love, T/C
 
Sep 25, 2012
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Awright yous guys. Ya just had to drag me into this didn't ya ?
Romans 11:25 Paul speaking; For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
II Thes. Chapter 2 says as soon as the Church is gone, Anti-Christ shows up and for 7 years, himself, Jews, and Unbelievers will enjoy the Tribulation. That is also when the Jews blindness will fall away. The fullness of the Gentiles had come according to Romans 11. Go to Luke 21 for the other side of the coin. It is the unbelieving element. Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Note: He is saying this in Palestine, 70AD) He is talking about Titus' great invasion and destruction of the temple.
Luke 21:24 and they (the Jews in Jerusalem) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive unto all nations. (see, 70 AD, not the end of the tribulation) (At the end of trib. Jews are just to survive until the Messiah appears.) OOpps, here I am...still in Luke 21:24..and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (that's a buncha trodden, huh?) In v25 and on it tells of the signs that the tribulation is warmin up it's engines.
I going to stop here in case someone wants to cuss or discuss :eek::confused:
 
Sep 25, 2012
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Why the rapture ? God says so. He broke it to Paul after Christ was crusified and rose again. Never before was man told that the living also will be scootin outa here too along with other interesting details.
1 Cor 15:52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (be dead) , but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I'm gonna do a happy dance like never before) (Did you see that, babies too, says and we shall be changed. :) So, here we stand alive and the Gentiles are fulfilled. The dead in Christ will arise first. (Hurry Hurry, I can't wait) OK Now it's all the believers.
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you be ignorant , brethern, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (all of your believing loved who have died will be there too.)
Now read 1 Thes 4: 14 thru 17. If you guys come lookin for me, I'm a lot gooder lookin than my photo. (Lord, I know, sorry bout that. :) . )
 
Sep 25, 2012
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Wull if Moses wrote Genesis, then him....that guy. Gen 5:24.
It happened to that guy alright but no one else was told they would leave here lock, stock and barrel dressed n' stuff. So, there, you'are wrong cause that wasn't the answer I wanted. :p

Fact is the bible says we can't go to heaven other than a spirit. See there, that's wut we get for thinking.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major... I am sorry, I guess I should have made my point a little clearer. My point was 'Why is it that they did not get removed from the earth in some sort of 'rapture'? Funny thing is, you still answered it correctly!!

You are absolutely right!!!! They had faith to endure. The Lord already knew their faith, they weren't proving it to Him, it was for the rest of us as an example of what kind of faith we should exhibit.

They didn't need a rapture, and neither will we! If we are real Christians, we will endure till the end!

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The rapture is a fable...Those who don't endure will fall away when tried

Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.


and it will prove they were not of us:


1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

During the last days of temptation and tribulation, the real Christians will endure and receive a crown:

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Those who are left at the end will be wise virgins with the Holy Spirit.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.



There is no rapture...That is why Lot and Noah had to remain faithful through all things and they remained while the wicked were removed.

We can do this all day and all night because the Word of God is true and consistent. Please reconsider what you believe about the rapture fable brother, it isn't going to happen that way...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He comes after He has tried His people to see who is for real and who is not...Prepare your heart for that day man, build your 'ark' like Noah did while the rest of the world did their thing. Your 'ark' is the power of Grace...the Holy Spirit. a treasure in your earthen vessel. Get Him in your heart and don't let the cares of this world snuff out your lamp.

In Love, T/C
Those people you asked about didnt ask to be removed either.
God just did it because ......well, He is God and can pretty much do what He wants.

You are free to believe as you wish. I just do not agree with your conclusions and there is nothing I can say that will help you and vice versa.

You do a wonderful job of posting Scripture, unfortunatly none of them are in context with a Catching away or not a CAtching away.

For example...Acts 1:11.
You are usng it to say that there is no Rapture.....I guess. The verse is simply a tremendous promise to the followers of Jesus telling them that this same Jesus shall come again as He left.
Not another way, but this same way. He will desend as He assended. Untill that time those people are to be busy about Gods work.

Then Rev. 1:7
There is nothing here about the Rapture. The second coming of Christ to earth in fullfilment of the Scriptures prediction (Dan. 7:13) will be seen by ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH...........
When it takes place. It is about the Second Coming of Christ and this verse confirms Dan. 7:13 and Zech. 12:10.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Why the rapture ? God says so. He broke it to Paul after Christ was crusified and rose again. Never before was man told that the living also will be scootin outa here too along with other interesting details.
1 Cor 15:52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (be dead) , but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I'm gonna do a happy dance like never before) (Did you see that, babies too, says and we shall be changed. :) So, here we stand alive and the Gentiles are fulfilled. The dead in Christ will arise first. (Hurry Hurry, I can't wait) OK Now it's all the believers.
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you be ignorant , brethern, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (all of your believing loved who have died will be there too.)
Now read 1 Thes 4: 14 thru 17. If you guys come lookin for me, I'm a lot gooder lookin than my photo. (Lord, I know, sorry bout that. :) . )
Lord I hope so!!!

Lady goes into the park everyday and as usual there is a man taking photos of the people. He takes her picture and places it on the board for all to see and she can of course purchase the picture. As she leaves the park she looks at her picture and begins to yell at the photographer......."THIS IS NOT RIGHT, YOU DIDNT DO ME JUSTICE....YOU DIDNT DO ME JUSTICE"!!!!!

The guy looks at her, then the picture, then her then her picture. Then he says, lady, you don't need justice..............
YOU NEED MERCY!
 
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Sep 25, 2012
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Got some homework for those interested in the end times.
Paul didn't spend much time talking about prophecy but we are on the subject and I wuz thinking someone might like to know what he said and some back-up scripture.
II Thes. 2:4......Dan 9:24,27.....Matt 24:15,16.....Dan 11:21-23 and 36.....Rev 13:1-5
(Note: In Daniel 9:24 it is a period of 490 years but lasts for 483 years, and the other 7 years to complete the 490 are tribulation years in which there will be a temple...3 1/2 + 3 1/2.)
Now the pieces of the puzzle starts to fit...Fits gooder than my last belt for sure. Ever notice how they shrink ?
Major..is the print large enough for you ?
 
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