Why The Rapture Must Happen!

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TC...Have you been getting information from Sheppard's Chapel on TV ?

Major...Seems to our benefit to go along with the bible as you know. Your references are gooder n' snuff, and not half as dusty.

Every time the rapture comes up, it never fails, it turns into a hair pullin, yellin, name callin, knock down drag out. You know, something like the presidential debates, or life after the wedding cake.
 
Major, At the last trumpet is when the catching away happens. Your 'rapture theory has that taking place before the trumpets are handed out..You still have not addressed it but skirted the issue instead. Let's walk through thie seals shall we...

You said: "The Trumpets ARE NOT AFTER the Tribulation but in fact are part of the Great Tribulation".


That isn't what the scriptures say...The first four seals are the tribulation and the fifth seal shows those that came out of that tribulation:

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Those in white robes came out of 'Great Tribulation:

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This group in white is in the marriage:

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Clearly the five seals all deal with the tribulation. Now let's look at the sixth seal:


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Clearly, the sixth seal is the start of the day of the Lord and the time of His wrath. The Tribulation happens before the time of His wrath. The day of the Lord is the time of His earthly reign with the saints.

This time is a time of judgment and trumpets.It happens at the SEVENTH seal:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Again, you said:
"The Trumpets ARE NOT AFTER the Tribulation but in fact are part of the Great Tribulation".

Please explain how you get that again...because scripture clearly tells us that the tribulation is over before the trumpets are handed out! And while you are at it, tell me how you get a rapture before this time. Please explain to me how you have a 'last trumpet before the tribulation has started. ...You can't. don't say this has nothing to do with the rapture, it does because you rapture theory folks use the 'last trumpet scriptures to prove your theory.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

After His reign, the dead will be raised and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up to them. When He returns, He will rule from Jerusalem and gather the nations to Him:

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Zion exists now and will be brought down out of Heaven at His Return...

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Those who hear His Voice..that have His spirit will be in Zion. There isn't a rapture...They will be like wise virgins:

Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Your rapture is not going to happen...prepare your heart and endure whatever tribulation or temptation Satan throws at you...True Grace is not unmerited favor but the power of Christ

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

That is why we can do all things and overcome the world...through the power of Christ. Those who think it is unmerited favor have not experiences the true power of His Grace.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Sincerely T/C
 
Major said:
Hello again T/C.

It seems to me that you missed the point I was trying to make. Not only myself......but millions of men and women have served this country so as to keep the "Constitutional" right of free speech available to all Americans.

Of course God gave you that gift. I certainly did not and neither did anyone else. BUT all those who have served this country in the military has allowed you and the ability to speek freely. People all over this world DO NOT have that gift. Go to any Muslim county, walk to a street corner and begin to preach the gosple of the Lord Jesus Christ and see how long it takes before you are either locked up or killed. That is a fact.

Now, as for asking me 3 times about the 7th seal.

It seems that you have misunderstood the Scriptures. The Rapture is WHEN God says it will take place. The whole idea is that God will deliver the church FROM Tribulation. The Seventh Seal has nothing to do with the Rapture whatsoever!! You have confused, or missed the point and have instead referred to the "MID-TRIBULAION" opinion.

I do not believe the Mid-Trib is Biblically correct. I have consistantily stated that my belief is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. That is why I never answered the question as it did not pertain to my opinion.

The question was.......
"How is it that you are caught up before the tribulation when the trumpets are not handed out until the seventh seal-which is AFTER thew tribulation and those from it are revealed. "

The "trumpet" judgments are the 7th seal judments.

Rev. 8:1-2
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silance in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God, AND TO THEM WAS GIVEN SEVEN TRUMPETS".

Rev. 8:6....
"And the seven angels which had the seven "trumpets" prepaed themselves to sound".

As we can clearly see, the "Trumpet" judgments are PREPARING to sound. That tells us that they have NOT TAKEN PLACE. That of course negats your opinion of......"which is AFTER thew tribulation and those from it are revealed. "

The Trumpets ARE NOT AFTER the Tribulation but in fact are part of the Great Tribulation.

My observation and study over the years has convinced me that Rev. 11:15-18, the 7th Trumpet, describes the Revelation not the Rapture, and in fact parallels Revelation 19:11-16, and the notification of repetition in Revelation 10:11 would make the "Mid-Trib" interpretation in chronology of Revelation completely untenable.

To accept the Mid-Trib view, one must understand that this position depends on the ALLEGORICAL method of interpretation to make Revelation 11 describe the Rapture which is why I reject that view.

Always nice to talk with you and may the Lord bless you in your studies.
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You said:

As we can clearly see, the "Trumpet" judgments are PREPARING to sound. That tells us that they have NOT TAKEN PLACE. That of course negats your opinion of......"which is AFTER thew tribulation and those from it are revealed. "

Talk about scripture twisting...So they begin to sound but don't? The seventh seal IS the sounding of ALL seven trumpets. There isn't an 8th seal...

You also said:

The Trumpets ARE NOT AFTER the Tribulation but in fact are part of the Great Tribulation.

So then by your own theory the trumpets are part of the tribulation(which they aren't) but for the sake of the discussion, we will assume they are... So that means that the last trumpet is part of the tribulation. That would mean that the last trumpet happens during or at the end of tribulation. Which would STILL put you in the tribulation. Maybe you want to reconsider your view after eh?
 
Major, you said:

Go to any Muslim county, walk to a street corner and begin to preach the gosple of the Lord Jesus Christ and see how long it takes before you are either locked up or killed. That is a fact.

Indeed that is a fact. This is why there is tribulation in the world...just not in yours. So how do you enter the kingdom then?

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

The way of the cross is tribulation,
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you are not going through tribulation right now, you are not going the way of the cross. Grace is the power to overcome temptation...it is our way of escape:

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


You want the easy way out...live like the world and then be raptured. If you are truly living a Christian lifestyle, you are not of the world. You are in tribulation daily simply because of your belief.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Rapture theories are for the lukewarm my friend. You don't need a rapture you need the Holy Spirit.

T/C
 
The Town Crier said:
You said:

As we can clearly see, the "Trumpet" judgments are PREPARING to sound. That tells us that they have NOT TAKEN PLACE. That of course negats your opinion of......"which is AFTER thew tribulation and those from it are revealed. "

Talk about scripture twisting...So they begin to sound but don't? The seventh seal IS the sounding of ALL seven trumpets. There isn't an 8th seal...

You also said:

The Trumpets ARE NOT AFTER the Tribulation but in fact are part of the Great Tribulation.

So then by your own theory the trumpets are part of the tribulation(which they aren't) but for the sake of the discussion, we will assume they are... So that means that the last trumpet is part of the tribulation. That would mean that the last trumpet happens during or at the end of tribulation. Which would STILL put you in the tribulation. Maybe you want to reconsider your view after eh?
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Not so my friend. You are having to work allfully hard to make your theory fit.

Me, I just read what it says.

You have failed to see that the 7 Trumpet judgments are included in the 7th Seal and actually the 7th Seal Judgment IS THE Trumpet Judgments. The 7th Trumpet Judgment IS THE SET of 7 Vial Judgments.

The 7th Trumpet takes place at the midpoint of the Trib. with the next set of 7 Judgments coming quickly which are the Vial Judgments. The 7th VIAL (Bowl) is actually Armageddon.

Again, (5th time) I have no theories, I just read the book.

Bless you as you continue to study!

Rev. 11:15
 
The Town Crier said:
Major, you said:

Go to any Muslim county, walk to a street corner and begin to preach the gosple of the Lord Jesus Christ and see how long it takes before you are either locked up or killed. That is a fact.

Indeed that is a fact. This is why there is tribulation in the world...just not in yours. So how do you enter the kingdom then?

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

The way of the cross is tribulation,
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you are not going through tribulation right now, you are not going the way of the cross. Grace is the power to overcome temptation...it is our way of escape:

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


You want the easy way out...live like the world and then be raptured. If you are truly living a Christian lifestyle, you are not of the world. You are in tribulation daily simply because of your belief.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Rapture theories are for the lukewarm my friend. You don't need a rapture you need the Holy Spirit.


Bless you my friend, but why in the world do you keep using Scriptures which mean nothing to your position of a No Rapture.

IF you choose to reject the Rapture, that is your choice. I choose to believe it. But why in the world do you go to such lengths to post Scripture that does not support your theory at all.

Acts 14:2 is Luke account of Paul and BArnabus prevailing to get out the Word of God while being under stress and persecution from the Jewish community. The tribulation there is NOT about the coming 7 year Tribulation or Jacobs Trouble.

1 Cor. 10:12 & 13 have NOTHING to do with the Time of Jacobs Trouble.

2 Tim. 3:12-13 speak of those early church christians who were persecuted, by the Jews. They have nothing to do with the Tribulation Period.

Daniel wanted to know what was meant by the prophecy in the book of Jeremiah, that said God "would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:2). The angel Gabriel came to Daniel and told him what it meant.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks (of years) are determined for your people [Israel] and for your holy city [Jerusalem], to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Gabriel told Daniel that seventy weeks would be determined upon your people, the people of Judah, and your holy city, Jerusalem. The seventy years is the time that God has specifically set aside for dealing with His people - the nation of Israel. Since one week signifies seven years in the Bible, seventy weeks is 490 years.

The prophecy in Daniel 9:24 states that at the end of 490 years, the transgression would be finished, sins would end, reconciliation for iniquity would be made forever, everlasting righteousness would be brought in, visions and prophecies would be sealed, and the most Holy - the Messiah, would come back to redeem the world. Gabriel also told Daniel when the Messiah would come to earth the first time.

If you choose to reject all this.....FINE with me. But the verse you are using do not fit in any contextual manner to lend support to the idea of there not being a Rapture. You are just posting Bible verse that are totaly out of context.
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Howard Pettyjohn said:
TC...Have you been getting information from Sheppard's Chapel on TV ?

Major...Seems to our benefit to go along with the bible as you know. Your references are gooder n' snuff, and not half as dusty.

Every time the rapture comes up, it never fails, it turns into a hair pullin, yellin, name callin, knock down drag out. You know, something like the presidential debates, or life after the wedding cake.
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You are so right.

I just do not understand why people like T/C, who I am sure is a wondersul Christian person, want to work so hard to get people like me to come to their point of view.

It is a choice. You either accept it or you reject the Rapture. All this back and forth is just plain silly to me at this point.

I will discuss the Scriptures with anyone at any time, but there comes a point when we can see that there is nothing at all to be gained and I think that I am at that point with our brother T/C.
 
Major said:
Not so my friend. You are having to work allfully hard to make your theory fit.

Me, I just read what it says.

You have failed to see that the 7 Trumpet judgments are included in the 7th Seal and actually the 7th Seal Judgment IS THE Trumpet Judgments. The 7th Trumpet Judgment IS THE SET of 7 Vial Judgments.

The 7th Trumpet takes place at the midpoint of the Trib. with the next set of 7 Judgments coming quickly which are the Vial Judgments. The 7th VIAL (Bowl) is actually Armageddon.

Again, (5th time) I have no theories, I just read the book.

Bless you as you continue to study!

Rev. 11:15
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Major,you said:

The 7th Trumpet takes place at the midpoint of the Trib. with the next set of 7 Judgments coming quickly which are the Vial Judgments. The 7th VIAL (Bowl) is actually Armageddon.


The tribulation is not part of God's wrath. I clearly showed you that the fifth seal is the END of the tribulation.
The trumpets are not handed out until the tribulation is over. What part of that is so confusing to you? The trumpets are not part of the tribulation. They sound after...If the trumpets were part of the tribulation, then how could the last trumpet be the end? Remember, There is more that happens after the tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


What part of 'after the tribulation don't you understand ...After the tribulation is over the sun moon and stars will go dark and the stars will fall from heaven...Which is what happens at the sixth seal:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation and Matthew are talking about the days after the tribulation when Jesus returns.

It is called the day of the Lord for a reason!!!

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

You can believe what you want with your rapture theory and 'antichrist' in Jerusalem, but after the tribulation is over Jesus will return to Jerusalem to reign and I will be there with Him. The tribulation is over before the trumpets are given out...I have given you every shred of proof and you can't refute it. I am beginning to think that the Lord has sent you the strong delusion my friend...I will be praying for you.

Grace be with you when He returns..
T/C




 
JeremiahD84 said:
Actually I'm familiar with what the Bible as a whole says and it's very clear there is a rapture. If you reject a rapture it's because you don't understand scripture as a whole. In addition, the verses I used were more than just clips of verses out of context. I used sections of verses that clearly indicate what they're about. You either didn't read the blog or you read it already having made up your mind that you're against it.
When Jesus lived on earth, He offered the kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it - so God used this to draw to Himself a group of all peoples, nations, tribes and tongues and He is calling it His church. He even predicted His own rejection by the Jews and the establishing of the church when He gave the parable of the olive branch - In it the Kingdom of God is like a cultivated olive tree and the Jews are a branch, but they have been cut off and a wild olive branch (the church) has been grafted in. However Jesus goes on to say that the wild olive branch will be removed (raptured) so the cultivated branch (the Jews) could be grafted in once again and finally receive the promise of the Kingdom. I respect your right to disagree but I encourage you to keep studying. The rapture is fully Biblical and promised by Jesus.
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Your friend Dave Powers is right about the lunacy that is for sure.
Just wondering if you would like to read again your above quoted post and amend some of the content?
 
There will be catching up, or rapture, but the details are a bit obscure.
In the film 'left behind', the clothing worn by the raptured people just collapsed in a pile. In another movie 'Apocalypse' (also by cloud ten productions) the redundant clothing was left freshly laundered and folded! Point is there is more than one way of viewing the same event.......sometimes.
 
The Town Crier said:
Major,you said:

The 7th Trumpet takes place at the midpoint of the Trib. with the next set of 7 Judgments coming quickly which are the Vial Judgments. The 7th VIAL (Bowl) is actually Armageddon.


The tribulation is not part of God's wrath. I clearly showed you that the fifth seal is the END of the tribulation.
The trumpets are not handed out until the tribulation is over. What part of that is so confusing to you? The trumpets are not part of the tribulation. They sound after...If the trumpets were part of the tribulation, then how could the last trumpet be the end? Remember, There is more that happens after the tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


What part of 'after the tribulation don't you understand ...After the tribulation is over the sun moon and stars will go dark and the stars will fall from heaven...Which is what happens at the sixth seal:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation and Matthew are talking about the days after the tribulation when Jesus returns.

It is called the day of the Lord for a reason!!!

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

You can believe what you want with your rapture theory and 'antichrist' in Jerusalem, but after the tribulation is over Jesus will return to Jerusalem to reign and I will be there with Him. The tribulation is over before the trumpets are given out...I have given you every shred of proof and you can't refute it. I am beginning to think that the Lord has sent you the strong delusion my friend...I will be praying for you.

Grace be with you when He returns..
T/C
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I have gone as far as I can with you T/C. It is obviouse that you are confused and in fact unable or have rejected all that is availible to you so that you can learn and grow.

Listen carefully again...........IT is your choice. You do not have to try and convince me that there is no Rapture.
That can not be done my friend.

I do hope that you will study and do the work so that you will in the future be able to correctly state what the Scripture teach.

That way you will not have to say things like............
I am beginning to think that the Lord has sent you the strong delusion my friend.

One of the phycological truths of humanity is that when anyone can not substaniate their opinions they revert to personal comments in order to look better to others. It is obviouse that is what you have to do.
 
My personal comments about praying for you are real my friend...I just hope those who are reading this thread can see the scriptures for what they really are. I have shown you the truth unequivocally. You are the one refusing to consider it because it will cause you to evaluate your walk with the Lord-which we are supposed to be doing daily anyway.


Major,you said:

The 7th Trumpet takes place at the midpoint of the Trib. with the next set of 7 Judgments coming quickly which are the Vial Judgments. The 7th VIAL (Bowl) is actually Armageddon.

If you are so confident in your belief, why cant you explain the trumpets and tribulation scriptures for everyone...Explain with scriptures how the trumpets sound during the tribulation...you simply can't. Your rapture theory holds no water. The trumpets sound after the tribulation is over ...that is easy to understand without any scripture twisting. Why you can't acknowledge that is mystifying to me..I showed you plain as day. God Bless and have a great day

T/C
 
calvin said:
There will be catching up, or rapture, but the details are a bit obscure.
In the film 'left behind', the clothing worn by the raptured people just collapsed in a pile. In another movie 'Apocalypse' (also by cloud ten productions) the redundant clothing was left freshly laundered and folded! Point is there is more than one way of viewing the same event.......sometimes.
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That is the problem calvin! People are watching movies to learn about the days ahead rather than living by the word of God and asking the Holy Spirit to prepare their hearts. The left behind series is so far from sound doctrine, it isn't funny.These rapture fable guys are wolves in sheeps clothing who brought about cunningly devised fables.
Because people are still living for their flesh, and not diligently studying the Word, they are still carnal Christians with no spiritual discernment.


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

People are so busy living for the things of this world, feeding the desires of their flesh that they never get to the place of having spiritual discernment.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.


Things like movies and concerts are just that...acts of the flesh. These war against the spirit and choke out the word.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Satan has people so wrapped up in television preachers, movies and book series that they cannot understand the Bible anymore, because their minds are polluted with fables..and they have become lukewarm...They want to live like the world and all its perks, then expect some easy out. That is not the doctrine of Jesus Christ.We are to overcome the world, get out of it and then save others from it. Those that don't are still of the world.


1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


The lukewarm group thinks they have 'unmerited favor'. so they can continue to live like the world. That is not the Grace of the Bible. Grace is the Holy Spirit. Grace is the power of God to overcome the world. Those that have true Grace have both discernment and eternal life. Those that don't are still gentiles and blind in their hearts..


Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

They are sowing to their flesh instead of to their spirit:

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

We are in perilous times just like the Bible said would happen..

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Put away your television, movies and other fleshy desires and go back to the Word of God while you have time...

Sincerely, T/C
 
T/C...Lets find out where this trump came from. Are you talking about the one in Rev 11:15 or 1 Thes 4:16 ?
I vote for 1 Thes 4:16.
Now about all those folks who are sorry and worthless, are you thinking that we, who do not go along with you on this, belong to that crowd ? Sounds like it. Would it make you happier if we were miserable and hate our flesh ?
Are you gonna turn us in to God and squeal on us ? My flesh is about to expire but it is all I've got for now.
Don't ya seeeee, while you are waiting for the trumpets to be handed out we will be plum gone. Fact is you don't seem to agree with 1 Cor 15:52 saying a trump will sound. Is that a mistake ?
 
T/C...Been reading your comments and it sounds like you figure that almost everyone is destined for hell.

I guess that makes me just too fleshy. I don't see it that way and besides God tells me that He will take charge of that sort of judgment. Says we can carefully handle members from the same body, with the help of another, by going and talking to them about habitual bad habits that they may not even be aware of. God gave a plan on how to handle that stuff. Seems He prefers to handle it Himself in most cases. Seems a lot of baby Christians have been run off and discouraged by over righteous busy bodies. Have seen it over and over.
 
Howard Pettyjohn said:
T/C...Lets find out where this trump came from. Are you talking about the one in Rev 11:15 or 1 Thes 4:16 ?
I vote for 1 Thes 4:16.
Now about all those folks who are sorry and worthless, are you thinking that we, who do not go along with you on this, belong to that crowd ? Sounds like it. Would it make you happier if we were miserable and hate our flesh ?
Are you gonna turn us in to God and squeal on us ? My flesh is about to expire but it is all I've got for now.
Don't ya seeeee, while you are waiting for the trumpets to be handed out we will be plum gone. Fact is you don't seem to agree with 1 Cor 15:52 saying a trump will sound. Is that a mistake ?
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Howard, I completely agree with 1 Cor 15:52....It clearly says the 'LAST TRUMPET ' There is no argument there.
I will be in New Jerusalem comforted whilst all the madness and judgment is going on outside the gate. The Bible is very clear about the condition of the flesh...It wars against our spirit and is a 'body of death'....

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If you want to glory in your flesh and live to feed it, fine:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Scripture is very clear about the flesh. Yes you are supposed to hate it and be glad when you are set free from it. Your flesh is your enemy my friend. Satan can tempt your flesh.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

That is why we must become spiritually minded...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Study Romans for awhile and then live it. You will see your life change before your very eyes. You will become spiritually discerned and have NO confidence in the flesh...

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You will see, you don't need a rapture...You need the Holy Spirit to keep you until the day He returns. He won't be coming back and then leaving and then coming back for a third time...He is going to return and all eyes will see Him. He will be casting out the workers of iniquity at the first trumpet. Which is the start day of the Lord:

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


It happens after the tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Bible is consistent...It won't be a secret rapture... I am truly sorry that you cannot see it for what it is. I will be praying for the Lord to show you ...

With Love
T/C
 
From TC's Post #95
calvin said: ↑
There will be catching up, or rapture, but the details are a bit obscure.
In the film 'left behind', the clothing worn by the raptured people just collapsed in a pile. In another movie 'Apocalypse' (also by cloud ten productions) the redundant clothing was left freshly laundered and folded! Point is there is more than one way of viewing the same event.......sometimes.​
That is the problem calvin! People are watching movies to learn about the days ahead rather than living by the word of God and asking the Holy Spirit to prepare their hearts. The left behind series is so far from sound doctrine, it isn't funny.These rapture fable guys are wolves in sheeps clothing who brought about cunningly devised fables.
Because people are still living for their flesh, and not diligently studying the Word, they are still carnal Christians with no spiritual discernment.
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This here highlights part of the problem you are having here with Christian people.....I think.
You seem to be unable to understand illustrative instruction.
I have colour and size emphasized the part of my quoted post that you might have benefited from, had you been able to understand by example.
Have you never yet even understood that Jesus sometimes taught using common everyday objects and experiences to teach about truth? Do you seriously think that heaven must actually be full of camels and needles because Jesus referred to them when teaching that rich guy that he had a heart problem to deal with?:(
When I mentioned the discarded clothing, I was using them to illustrate a truth. sigh:(

Mat 24:40. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.
Mat 24:44. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The time of Jesus' return sounds like a well kept secret to me.
One will be taken another left behind.....sounds like a catching up and away to to me.

Hey TC, You are right! We should read the Bible! that is where I found the truth of the secret rapture just as Jesus taught it!...:oops:I hope He didn't watch TV too. ;)
TC, if you have a problem with the scripture I quoted.........take it up with Jesus...it is not my lack of spirituality, I'm just quoting Him.
 
This will most certainly tip the boat a little, but out of love for mt brethren, I am led to show the truth as found in Scripture and not after the desires of our own feeble hearts. Christendom doesn't want to be held accountable for their sins, anymore than they want to be accused of being "right wing" or God forbid, 'racist'. Praise be to Yahshua for the ones that hear His Voice, and unlike the infertile ground in the parable of the Sower, will yield fruit and rejoice at His glory. Amen.

Unfortunately, the Protestant world (and some Catholics too) has become enamored of a very sinister deception. It is called the “Rapture Theory”. The Rapture Theory promotes the idea that 'faithful Christians' will be spared the tribulations of the Judgment Day. Somehow, whether its through the medium if space ships taking them to outer space or angels whisking them from this corporeal reality into the astral plane, these Christians believe that they are not required to defend the Faith against the enemies of Jesus Christ. Rather, they believe that all they have to do is wait around for the day that they will be rescued from all of this.
Friends, there is hardly a more pernicious idea invading Christendom than this one, because is has had the effect of neutralizing all those Christians who should be working for the Kingdom. Instead, they have become uninvolved in their own salvation.
Let's look at the Scriptures whence this doctrine arises:

Matthew, Chapter 24

“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the Flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man. Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: ye know not what hour your Lord cometh.” – Verses 37-42

This is the essence of the Rapture Theory. I haven't seen the movie, Left Behind, but I'm sure it paints the same scenario. What are these people missing? In the verses quoted above, it is clear that Jesus is comparing the future tribulation with the days of Noah just before the Flood “took them all away”. So let's look at those verses and see what they say:

“And Yahweh said unto Noah, Come thou and all they house into the ark; for in thee have I seen righteousness before me in this generation.” – Verse 1

“And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and only Noah remained alive, and they that were with in the ark.” – Verse 23

Now, note very carefully the use of the word “remained”. Unless I do not understand the English language, “remained” and “left behind” are synonymous. Noah and his family were the ones who remained and the others were taken away by the Flood. Is there any doubt as to who was taken versus who was left behind on the earth? It is crystal clear that it is the evil ones who were taken away by the Flood and the righteous ones who were left behind on the earth.

Now , let's go back to Matthew.

Verse 37 tells us, “As in the days of Noah...” Jesus is making a direct comparison between the coming tribulation and the bygone days of Noah. The evil ones were doing absolutely nothing to prepare for the day of trouble. It was “party hearty” time. Only the good people were making preparations.
The rapturists cannot be compared to the good people because they are doing absolutely nothing to prepare for the day. They may not be actively sinning, but they are certainly not promoting God's Kingdom. They have, in fact, become fat, lazy Christians. The only “preparation” they are making is assuming their righteousness. In fact, they are merely engaged in business as usual, like Noah's contemporaries”eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”, etc. The revelers of Noah's time were blissfully going about their daily activities, disobeying God's commandment to establish His Kingdom here on earth.

Verses 40 and 41 tell us, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Now, given the context that Jesus clearly ascribes to the days of Noah, who is “taken” and who is “left behind”? It is clear that the people who were left behind here on earth were the good people of Noah's family. The ones who were “taken away” were the evil onesof the surrounding country. They were taken away by death. There is no other possible interpretation.
The rapturists, in order to purvey their doctrine, must REVERSE the clear meaning of Genesis 7 in order to interpret Matthew 40 and 41 to mean what they claim. Jesus is telling us that the ones who will be taken, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, will be like the evil ones who were swept away by the Flood. Contrariwise, the righteous ones, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, were “left behind” here on earth, although they had to endure a seven month ride in the ark. THE RAPTURISTS HAVE GOT IT BACKWARDS; and they had better start preparing for the worst, because, if you keep on reading Matthew, Chapter 24, Jesus makes it very clear who will inherit the Kingdom:

“Watch, therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the good-man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come [the rapturists don't care when the thief will come because they assume they will be spared!] he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.[The rapturists are standing by, idly, while the house is being broken up.] Therefore, be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord has made ruler over his household, to give them meat [instruction in the Law] in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you that he shall make him ruler over goods. But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken [as in the days of Noah]; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be a weeping and a gnashing of teeth.” – Verses 44-51

The Rapturists belong to that very same school of non-activist, uncontentious, “don't rock the boat” Christians (unlike those activists who founded Christianity in the face of both Roman imperialism and rabbinical persecution) who have stood by and watched the household being torn asunder by the antinomians and the “Judeo Christians”. How cane you inherit that which you have failed to protect? If you are not actively “contending for the faith” i.e., working for the Kingdom here on earth as in heaven (recall the meaning of the Lord's Prayer), then you are an evil, lazy servant. Indeed, you are no servant at all.

Jude, Verse 3 has this to say:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation [for True Israel], it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints [not to the antinomians and dispensationalists!].”

Notice the definite article 'the' in front of the word 'faith'? Does this mean any old faith, that one might happen to entertain, or is this a reference to THE FAITH OF OUR FAITHER, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB? Unlike our modern antinomians, whose faith is in Jesus rather than the faith of Jesus, the saints of old had faith in God's Law. In essence, modern Christianity puts more stock in the personality of Jesus, as a roving one-man cavalry, riding in to save us from ourselves. The Biblical Jesus, however, is one who exhorts us to obey His Law and to follow His example. Is modern Christendom following His example? Didn't He overturn the table of the moneychangers? Hasn't modern Christianity let the moneychangers back in the temple?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments” – John 14:15

Biblical Christians know that if they put their trust in Yah's Law, the nation will prosper. (See II Chronicles 7:14.) The problem is that modern Christianity has become heretical and Pharisaic, teaching the doctrines of men instead of the Law of God.
Elaborating on this subject, in the very next Chapter, right after the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, Jesus gives is the parable of the unprofitable servant. In this parable, the master of the household gives three different servants five, two, and one talents respectively. (It seems to me that the double meaning of the word 'talent' here is really beautiful here.) The housemaster praises the two servants who doubled their talents but he rebukes the holder of the one talent because he simply buried the coin and did nothing with it.

In verses 29 and 30, Jesus tells us:

“For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

I can hear the wailing and the grinding of teeth when the rapturists find out how wrong they have been.

“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” – I Peter 1:7

Those who are doing nothing but waiting around for the Rapture, contrary to the clear admonition of our Lord to maintain His household and obey His commandments, are the very people who will be counted among the hypocrites when the Bridegroom comes to claim His Bride [Israel restored], for they assume that their faith will excuse them from the firestorm when Scripture clearly tells us that our faith is to be tried by fire.

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believe not in the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” – 2 Thes. 2:11,12

What greater delusion could there be than believing that mere faith, as opposed to practicing the righteousness of Yahweh's Law, is all that is required for salvation! Did any of the prophets say that is would be that easy????? The dispensationalists and antinomians who say that the Old Testament is a “Jewish Book” that has no relevance to the modern “Christian” church should read the book of Job to find out what real faith is. Job lost all of his earthly possessions, including his children. After enduring all of these things, Job declared: “Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty.” (Job 5:10) Also: “When He hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.” (23:10)The author of the book of Job tells us: “In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.” (1:22)Of these modern, fair weather Christians, I would ask: How does your faith compare with Job's? Are you absolutely, one hindered percent certain that the Old Testament is irrelevant?
Can the rapturists, who are sitting around wasting their talents, be considered “profitable servants”? Is their “do nothing” attitude in these times of crises acceptable to Jesus? I don't think so! The rapturists' delusion is of of grandiose self-flattery: “Our faith is so strong that we will be spared the fire.” they proclaim! How self serving and convenient! Ont the contrary, they have substituted a delusion for the Faith, and I guarantee that they will be second in line, right after the false priests of Judeo Christianity to be cast into the fire for their failure to heed Scriptural warnings about the true nature of the tribulation and the Judgment Day. They will be “taken away” all right, but in the same manner as the evil one's in Noah's day/ They will be taken away by death.
Finally, Matthew 10:22 puts it this way: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake; be he that endureth to the end will be saved.” Does it say “he that is raptured before the end shall be saved?” And, incidentally, nobody hates the rapturists because they are the least controversial of all Christians! Since they have effectively removed themselves from the scene and from contention, nobody pays them enough attention to warrant hatred – certainly not the sworn enemies of Jesus Christ! How can you hate an “enemy” whose only plan is to leave the battlefield? Can you hear the enemy saying “Good riddance!” and “Have a nice trip!” “See you after the battle, don't bother to come back!”
In summary, I would like to say that the rapturists are Scripturally wrong on four major points:
          1. They have reversed Jesus Christ's prophecy regarding who will be taken and who will be left behind.
          2. They have unwittingly obviated the need for the Tribulation because that have replaced God's Law with antinomian “faith”, thus removing the Scriptural basis (righteousness versus unrighteousness) for the Judgment Day and the very tribulation from which they falsely expect to be spared.
          3. They have fallen into a delusion of self-flattery, claiming that their vague, emotion-laden concept of “faith”, even though it denies the validity of the Law, is sufficient for salvation.
          4. They have opted for the easy way out, contrary to the clear pronunciations of Scripture which tell us that we must be “tried by fire” and that we must “endure to the end”
In short, they have become Christian couch potatoes, whose heads are so far up in the clouds that they are no earthly good. Amen.
There will indeed be a rapture of the saints, but the 'rapture' will be the joy they experience after they have endure to the end. Frankly, I wouldn't miss it for the world. I want to savor the victory. Being 'chastened', 'tried' and 'made pure as gold' should be considered honor, not something to be avoided. Gird your loins and buckle your seat belts, the roller coaster leaves in five minutes. Maybe sooner!

For the record, here is the 1830 vision of the Scotswoman Margaret MacDonald, in her own words, which is reputed as the source of the pre-Tribulation Rapture theory. Pay special attention to the following sentence: “Tis Christ in us that will lift us up – he is the light – tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.” It seems that this phrase, “caught up”...in the air” has been interpreted quite quite literally by many to mean a pre-Tribulation Rapture “up in the sky”, but is that what she intended? I think not, for the very simple reason that it is clear that Miss MacDonald believes in a Judgment Day and trial by fire, and the vast majority of rapturists are antinomians and dispensationalists, both of which groups believe that Christians are saved by “faith only”, not by the Law (righteousness). Rather, Miss MacDonald talks about “spiritual discernernment.” In what sense does the “faith only” doctrine require spiritual discernment?
The Book of Revelation clearly tells us that we will be judged “according to our works.” (Rev. 20:13) In fact, the meaningfulness of our Faith is demonstrated in our actions. “Faith without works is dead.” – James 2:14 What good is your faith if it does not bear fruit for the Kingdom? Read her insightful vision for yourself and see if Miss MacDonald belongs in the “faith only”, pre-Trib camp.
When Paul and the Apostles tell us that good works are not enough to save us, what they mean is that our attempts to undo all of the evil we have done as individuals and as people could not possibly pay off the full debt that we owe to God. Instead, by His grace (mercy), He cancels a large part of that debt on our behalf when He knows that our hearts have been converted through true repentance. But those whose hearts have not been converted will most definitely pay the price at the Judgment Day and they will be judged according to their works.


Margaret MacDonald's revelation as published in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861):

“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God'. I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that tere was a great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passage were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, “Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five were wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This ws the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels – this is the light to be kept burning – the light of God – that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up – he is the light – 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of agold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to busrt on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities – now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known – now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yer to be opened up – it is not knowledfe about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God – I sae that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariot of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing – so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived – This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; But oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken in the very center. The enemy will try to shake everything we have believed – but the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing buw what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest – the love of many will wax cold.
I freequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive – for it is will all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work – he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be pured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God – and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he – when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which of those are to pass will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of Man. There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Chrush is from Antichrist. It is
 
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