Will God and Jesus ever stop loving me? Can someone lose their salvation while on earth?

[Big Moose]

Complete, I enjoyed reading and agreed with your whole post except for the lines I quoted. You were spot on the money until you introduced 'brainwashing' like the others. That is the only thing I am harping on. It annoys the bejeepers out of me because the nonsense teaching goes off into all avenues. Cut its head off right now! None of these issues require brainwashing. We can 'know' that God loves us and does not condemn us. By knowing scripture / grasping the cross and daily judging ourselves to be in Christ.
No need for ''I am fine, I am fine, I am fine, I am fine, let me think happy thoughts only....''

Can you meld this with Philippians 4:
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

 

[Major]

Do you guys have any scripture which spells this out? I'm not disagreeing, I just have not seen this anywhere in scripture.

I am not Jim or Mrs. Turtle but I would like to respond to your question Moose.

Solomon points out in I Kings 8:39 and II Chronicles 6:30 that only God knows the hearts of men. It is a characteristic of deity and it is one of the reasons we know that Jesus is God because he knew the hearts or thoughts of his audience.

But Satan is not God. If he cannot see into the minds of men, then it follows he is not able to insert thoughts into men either. All the way through the Bible we find Satan tempting mankind by manipulating the situation men find themselves in and by encouraging men to consider sinful things by playing on man's desires as wee see in James 1:13-16.

If it were true that Satan could make a person think wicked thoughts by placing the thoughts there directly, then it would mean that people with wicked thoughts aren't responsible. It would be the saying of every man that ...The Devil made me do it"!!!!
It would be Satan's choice and not their own which then leads to the sinner not be responsible for his sin. But evil comes from with a man, from his thoughts.

Mark 7:21-23.............
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Then we need to grasp who is actually responsible.
Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

That tells us that it is the individual is responsible for his sins.

Satan cannot make you sin. He tempts you to sin. He makes sin look alluring and fun. But he cannot force you.

I Corinthians 10:13.........
"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it".

 

[Big Moose]

Sometimes I feel unloved and forsaken. I pray everyday to Jesus for protection and for him to forgive me of all my sins. At times I even think that I am hopeless and am condemned already. Does he still love me and want me to go to heaven?

Look ahead, not behind.
Isaiah 43:
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.

And Philippians 4:

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!

5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

(Meditate on These Things)
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

 

[Big Moose]

I am not Jim or Mrs. Turtle but I would like to respond to your question Moose.

Solomon points out in I Kings 8:39 and II Chronicles 6:30 that only God knows the hearts of men. It is a characteristic of deity and it is one of the reasons we know that Jesus is God because he knew the hearts or thoughts of his audience.

But Satan is not God. If he cannot see into the minds of men, then it follows he is not able to insert thoughts into men either. All the way through the Bible we find Satan tempting mankind by manipulating the situation men find themselves in and by encouraging men to consider sinful things by playing on man's desires as wee see in James 1:13-16.

If it were true that Satan could make a person think wicked thoughts by placing the thoughts there directly, then it would mean that people with wicked thoughts aren't responsible. It would be the saying of every man that ...The Devil made me do it"!!!!
It would be Satan's choice and not their own which then leads to the sinner not be responsible for his sin. But evil comes from with a man, from his thoughts.

Mark 7:21-23.............
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Then we need to grasp who is actually responsible.
Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

That tells us that it is the individual is responsible for his sins.

Satan cannot make you sin. He tempts you to sin. He makes sin look alluring and fun. But he cannot force you.

I Corinthians 10:13.........
"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it".

Could they just be saying that we don't come up with ideas, we are always choosing from a list of choices, which would make us responsible for those choices, and the choices are only of either God or the devil?

 

[Euphemia]

George Orwell book....."1984"........
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”


Hmmmm.

Not when we speak in agreement with the word of God. Human thinking is corruptible. God's thoughts concerning His children is not.

"But we have the mind if Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16

 

[Major]

Could they just be saying that we don't come up with ideas, we are always choosing from a list of choices, which would make us responsible for those choices, and the choices are only of either God or the devil?

Mark 7:21 seems to answer that question very nicely I think.............
"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery......".

 

[CCW95A]

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

We are to love God with all our "heart", "soul", "mind, and "strength"
The mind is not the "soul", it is only the place where our personalities live, and our "power of choice" reside. The soul receives "information" from both the "physical mind" in our head, and the "mind of Christ" that dwells inside our re-birthed human spirit. The soul then decides who it will, believe, either the flesh, or the spirit (heart). If the un renewed mind is never renewed then there will always be a lusting of the flesh, against the spirit, as they are "contrary" to one another so we can not do what we want,(Gal 5:17) which is to have faith.
Evil thoughts only proceed out of the un renewed heart which is evil, who can know it. Jesus Christ has become our new heart, and it is NOT evil. What is evil is the un renewed carnal mind which is the "enemy" of God. (Romans 8:7)

 

[Major]

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

We are to love God with all our "heart", "soul", "mind, and "strength"
The mind is not the "soul", it is only the place where our personalities live, and our "power of choice" reside. The soul receives "information" from both the "physical mind" in our head, and the "mind of Christ" that dwells inside our re-birthed human spirit. The soul then decides who it will, believe, either the flesh, or the spirit (heart). If the un renewed mind is never renewed then there will always be a lusting of the flesh, against the spirit, as they are "contrary" to one another so we can not do what we want,(Gal 5:17) which is to have faith.
Evil thoughts only proceed out of the un renewed heart which is evil, who can know it. Jesus Christ has become our new heart, and it is NOT evil. What is evil is the un renewed carnal mind which is the "enemy" of God. (Romans 8:7)

The context of Mark 12:30 is the disciples. They, disciples ask to be better taught as to this matter. Would we consider that they were lost and un-regenerated at this time?????

They were in my opinion just as are we today. The human heart, in its natural condition, is evil, treacherous and deceitful. Jeremiah 17:9 says...........
“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”

In other words, the Fall has affected us at the deepest level; our mind, emotions and desires have been tainted by sin—and we are blind to just how pervasive the problem is, and there is no sin in word or deed, which was not first in the heart. They all come out of the man, and are fruits of that wickedness which is in the heart, and is wrought there.

 

[CCW95A]

The context of Mark 12:30 is the disciples. They, disciples ask to be better taught as to this matter. Would we consider that they were lost and un-regenerated at this time?????

They were in my opinion just as are we today. The human heart, in its natural condition, is evil, treacherous and deceitful. Jeremiah 17:9 says...........
“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”

In other words, the Fall has affected us at the deepest level; our mind, emotions and desires have been tainted by sin—and we are blind to just how pervasive the problem is, and there is no sin in word or deed, which was not first in the heart. They all come out of the man, and are fruits of that wickedness which is in the heart, and is wrought there.

When a man becomes "born again" he receives a new heart. God is the one who gives this heart, is it evil?

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[Major]

When a man becomes "born again" he receives a new heart. God is the one who gives this heart, is it evil?

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I must not have said what I wanted to say correctly or it was misunderstood.

Ezek. 36:26-27................
"And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do [them]".

That deceitful and incurable heart is that stony heart that is taken away and is replaced by a heart of flesh! The Holy Spirit gives His people a NEW HEART and causes them to walk in obedience!

And not only is the heart new, EVERYTHING is new. The regenerated person is a NEW CREATION:
2 Cor, 5:17...........
"So that if anyone [is] in Christ, [he] is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new ".

The old things include the old heart. It is GONE. The Holy Spirit makes a person anew! There is a GREAT CHANGE that has taken place! To say that the heart of a believer remains deceitful and incurably wicked is to deny the transforming work of the Holy Spirit!

However, does the Christian still sin? He most certainly does. Indwelling sin is still constantly with him to harass him make him do what he does not want to do, to the point of making him cry out that he is afflicted, distressed, grieved, and vexed as Paul said in Rom. 7:14-24. But he even sins differently than the wicked. The sin of the wicked comes from their totally depraved hearts. The sin of believers comes from the principle of sin dwelling in them. Romans 7:15 says that believers hate their sin and they have died to sin, and do not live in sin, and are free from the law of sin, and are not in the flesh (Rom. 6:2,6,11,14,22;8:1,2,4,9).

 

[CCW95A]

I must not have said what I wanted to say correctly or it was misunderstood.

Ezek. 36:26-27................
"And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do [them]".

That deceitful and incurable heart is that stony heart that is taken away and is replaced by a heart of flesh! The Holy Spirit gives His people a NEW HEART and causes them to walk in obedience!

And not only is the heart new, EVERYTHING is new. The regenerated person is a NEW CREATION:
2 Cor, 5:17...........
"So that if anyone [is] in Christ, [he] is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new ".

The old things include the old heart. It is GONE. The Holy Spirit makes a person anew! There is a GREAT CHANGE that has taken place! To say that the heart of a believer remains deceitful and incurably wicked is to deny the transforming work of the Holy Spirit!

However, does the Christian still sin? He most certainly does. Indwelling sin is still constantly with him to harass him make him do what he does not want to do, to the point of making him cry out that he is afflicted, distressed, grieved, and vexed as Paul said in Rom. 7:14-24. But he even sins differently than the wicked. The sin of the wicked comes from their totally depraved hearts. The sin of believers comes from the principle of sin dwelling in them. Romans 7:15 says that believers hate their sin and they have died to sin, and do not live in sin, and are free from the law of sin, and are not in the flesh (Rom. 6:2,6,11,14,22;8:1,2,4,9).

The "new heart" can not sin for God's seed remains in the Christian, for it is Christ himself.

1 John 3:9.. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There are two enemies as a Christian we face.

(1) The enemy without:
Eph 6:12.. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

(2) The enemy within:
2Co 10:3.. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4.. (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5.. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Thoughts and imaginations belong to the physical mind. The "carnal" un rewed mind is the "enemy" of God because it is not subject to the laws of God.(Romans 8:7)

Does a Christian sin? Yes, but it is not his heart that sins but "sin" that is in his "flesh".

Rom 7:18.. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:20.. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

5. Brain has nothing to do with it... . My heart pumps blood to the rest of my body. My brain does all the reasoning. Why do you think babies and the mentally ill go straight to heaven. Heart is used as a metaphor for what drives the brain. This could be our spiritual man or some part of the brain. I would say that for the unsaved it is definitely solely brain. Mankind needs a Savior because mankind was given a really good brain / higher then animal cognitive abilities. One that can convict or justify them.

When you catch a fish. Your brain can determine whether you kill it quickly, slowly or throw it back in. Your brain knows that killing it slowly is wicked. Because your brain knows the pain it will suffer. Your brain knows you are being wicked. Your brain knows that there is a God. So your brain will compute / deduce that the odds of you being punished for wickedness is not just high but gauranteed. Your brain knows that God must be testing you by enabling you to be capable of such. So your brain knows that it should be able to apologize and make right with the Creator.

As a Christian, we get spiritual truths that defy brain mechanics. We are able to deduce that it is good and right to sacrifice our lives for our families / loved ones. But God tells us to love / be able to die for those that hate us. It is thoughts like this that renew our mind. A working brain is all that is needed to know that the Creator is good and can most certainly move a mountain / heal a limb / does not want us to torture anything. No spiritual truth / spiritual growth / inner core / heart is needed for such.

I think a thread on what exactly spiritual growth is would be good.

6. I am quoting your lines. You can't read my lines in isolation.

Brother Kj I quite agree with you that your brain does all your reasoning.
Now then let me show you something..............then I make my point........
Any time the the written word of God speaks about mans heart - it is speaking of mans core being - the spirit man.........not the organ that pumps blood.

Now then the fact that you brought this up about the heart and your brain simply proves that you are bringing carnal natural mans way of reasoning things and placing it up against spiritual knowledge or what is written in His word...........

As to the rest of this reply...................I refrain from saying anything..........
God Bless
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

As a WOF follower I know that you want to believe what you just said. I know that you WANT to believe that faith is a force that can be tapped into so that we can appropriate whatever it is that we desire. But the Bible fats do not confirm that thinking at all.

Faith and fear cannot exist together. Faith is described in Hebrews 11:1 as being "certain of what we do not see." It is an absolute belief that God is constantly working behind the scenes in every area of our lives, even when there is no tangible evidence to support that fact.

On the other hand, fear, simply stated, is unbelief or weak belief. As unbelief gains the upper hand in our thoughts, fear takes hold of our emotions. Our deliverance from fear and worry is based on faith, which is the very opposite of unbelief. Now then, here is the key..........you need to understand that faith is not something that we can produce in ourselves.

Faith is a gift as explained in Ephesians 2:8-9 and is described as a fruit (or characteristic) which is produced in our lives by the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5:22. The Christian's faith is a confident assurance in a God who loves us, who knows our thoughts and cares about our deepest needs. That faith continues to grow as we study the Bible and learn the attributes of His amazing character. The more we learn about God, the more we can see Him working in our lives and the stronger our faith grows.

You speak of a need to read Kenneth Copeland. That is not a surprise to me at all. Now you are a smart man. You could not possibly be fooled by anyone. I say that so that YOU will read the following and then open the Bible and compare the teaching of Mr. Copeland and see if it corresponds to tot he Bible and YOUR knowledge, or will you simply follow along blindly...............

“Faith activates the force of God fear is a force that activates the Devil. Copeland says, God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith.' (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1).

New Ager Benjamin Creme and WOF promoter says, ........
“One doesn't pray to oneself, one prays to the God within. The thing is to learn to invoke that energy which is the energy of God. Prayer and worship as we know it today will gradually die out and men will be trained to invoke the (inner) power of deity.” (The Reappearance of Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, pp. 135-136) .

But the great author and preacher A.W.Tozer wrote...
“imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there.”

THINK Jim!!!

Major I have no clue who these peoole are and dont really have an intrest in what they said.
Yes I do know who K. Copeland and what you quoted from him as false.........
The quote you listed
“Faith activates the force of God fear is a force that activates the Devil. Copeland says, God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith.'

Faith activates or moves God and fear moves or activates the devil........Sounds correct to me...............

For the other dispute............are you saying God does not have Faith ?
Lets clear this up and move on to the next........To many things to deal with at once.
Well at least for me......
Blessings my friend
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Do you guys have any scripture which spells this out? I'm not disagreeing, I just have not seen this anywhere in scripture.

Big Moose..............yes and will be putting it all together.....will pm you to let you know when it is posted.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I am not Jim or Mrs. Turtle but I would like to respond to your question Moose.

Solomon points out in I Kings 8:39 and II Chronicles 6:30 that only God knows the hearts of men. It is a characteristic of deity and it is one of the reasons we know that Jesus is God because he knew the hearts or thoughts of his audience.

But Satan is not God. If he cannot see into the minds of men, then it follows he is not able to insert thoughts into men either. All the way through the Bible we find Satan tempting mankind by manipulating the situation men find themselves in and by encouraging men to consider sinful things by playing on man's desires as wee see in James 1:13-16.

If it were true that Satan could make a person think wicked thoughts by placing the thoughts there directly, then it would mean that people with wicked thoughts aren't responsible. It would be the saying of every man that ...The Devil made me do it"!!!!
It would be Satan's choice and not their own which then leads to the sinner not be responsible for his sin. But evil comes from with a man, from his thoughts.

Mark 7:21-23.............
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Then we need to grasp who is actually responsible.
Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

That tells us that it is the individual is responsible for his sins.

Satan cannot make you sin. He tempts you to sin. He makes sin look alluring and fun. But he cannot force you.

I Corinthians 10:13.........
"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it".

Major..........that was a good try but you kind of got over in the ditch with this.
It was not once sad that satan can read our minds......You added this.........
satan throws a thought your way and watches how you respond by either words or actions and then will feed you another.

Scripture tells us to take every thought captive and make it line up with Gods word.
God Bless you Major.............
I need to go

 

[Cturtle]

Faith is a force.
"Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force" (Copeland, The Force of Faith, p.13).

Words activate the force.
"The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation" (Copeland, The Force of Faith. p. 18).

But is that what the BIBLE Says????: NO. The Bible says that Faith is not a force.

Faith is trusting in the promises of God. Faith is synonymous with 'being sure':
Heb. 11:1.........
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

We exercise faith when we trust in the promises of God.

Major i just praise God for you and your wonderful inner man (heart) that loves the Written Word of God. As i was praying God led me to 2 Corinthians 4:13 .....we having the same spirit (pneuma) of faith (pistis) according as it is written, I believed and therefore have I spoken we also believe and therefore speak.
So as you have blieved therefore have you spoken.

God bless you abundantly

 

[Cturtle]

Big Moose..............yes and will be putting it all together.....will pm you to let you know when it is posted.

While Jim is putting it together...think about all the Scriptures that talk about the mind. They only either mention a carnal mind or a spirit ruled mind which is life and peace....blessings

 

[KingJ]

Can you meld this with Philippians 4:
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

This scripture is always on my mind when I do long trips . I wonder how many can boast that they do not think immoral thoughts when they are idle.

This is advice for the brethren to keep their minds clean. As clean thoughts do not lead you into temptation. This is not suggesting that if someone doesn't feel right with God they must clean their thoughts and they will. Not feeling right with God requires harsher action then just cleaning the mind / meditiating on clean thoughts.

Paralleling this to brainwashing is like proposing someone who attends church regularly is saved.

 

[KingJ]

Brother Kj I quite agree with you that your brain does all your reasoning.
Now then let me show you something..............then I make my point........
Any time the the written word of God speaks about mans heart - it is speaking of mans core being - the spirit man.........not the organ that pumps blood.

Now then the fact that you brought this up about the heart and your brain simply proves that you are bringing carnal natural mans way of reasoning things and placing it up against spiritual knowledge or what is written in His word...........

As to the rest of this reply...................I refrain from saying anything..........
God Bless
Jim

With regards to the unsaved, the spirit man is dead. They only have that working mind with a weak flesh.

I am not ''bring carnal natural mans way of reasoning things''. I have given many scriptures and explanations from Paul on us judging ourselves to ensure we are in Christ. Paul even says we (professing to be saved) must do so in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. Not just going with 'spirit man feelings and promises'.

We are not allowed to discuss OSAS and this is definitely touching on it. I will just say that all my brain talk is in agreement with OSAS being true. But only to God. Only He can ultimately know this Jer 17:10. We are humans who like to think we are ok with God. Like Paul I distinguish only between those who profess to be saved vs not professing to be saved. As opposed to saved vs unsaved.

 

[Major]

Major i just praise God for you and your wonderful inner man (heart) that loves the Written Word of God. As i was praying God led me to 2 Corinthians 4:13 .....we having the same spirit (pneuma) of faith (pistis) according as it is written, I believed and therefore have I spoken we also believe and therefore speak.
So as you have blieved therefore have you spoken.

God bless you abundantly

Thank you for the very wonderful words. I seek not praise but accept any that comes knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ is the root of all praise.

My only goal is to get out the Word of God that all may rightly divide what IT SAYS and not what we want it to say.

God bless you and may you and your family be in the palm of Gods hand!